Angel Eggs hatching

[Linwood]

Ok, I am NOT set up to raise angels. Much sooner than I expected, two of our angels paired off and started spawning. The first couple they ate, but realized this week they were apparently successful.

Here's the proud mother overlooking her leaf.

She's not completely faithful, she will come to the feeding corner. So I lured her away, and used a syringe to get about half of the wigglers.

I cleaned out a 10G QT tank (about all I had usable). It has a filter that should be still cycled, and I changed about 98% of the water, got the bottom nice and clean. Water chemistry was mixed to match my main tank where they were laid. There's a scotch brite paid doubled over the HOB filter intake.

I also put a couple liters of water in a small container, 4 TBS of sea salt, and a few brine shrimp eggs. I also bought some "First bites" and some bottled Rotifers (ok, I asked at three fish stores, what did I expect).

The wigglers are still in a bunch as shown, not separated. I do not know what day the eggs were laid, I know they have been wiggling at least since yesterday.

I'm told they have zero chance in a community tank (220G with angels, congo tetras, plecos). I left half the eggs to encourage the parents and on the off chance they manage to survive (there's a lot of foliage in the tank).

I've watched lots of videos and read lots of stories about the elaborate setups people have for raising angels. Not going to happen, at least not for this brood.

Here's my question: Do they have any chance alone in this 10G tank?

Of the above foods, what's best? I'm guessing the brine shrimp. I also do not think I have much way to take uneaten shrimp away separately from the fish. Maybe, will see.

Am I better off (uneaten food wise) with the "first bites"?

But I have only one air stone -- it's in the shrimp at present. Do I need it in addition to the HOB (small Aqueon 10)? Every article I see mentions air.

Is it worth trying to raise these in this environment?

And finally -- if they survive free-swiming at all, should I add some food to the community tank? It has quite a bit of flow and in relation to their size it is huge -- just dump a bit in and hope it flows past them? Or are they really just food at this point regardless?

 

[Linwood]

Incidentally, I think the orange stuff in with the wigglers is poop the mother put there (and that's not a reflection behind, there are two piles, each with some).

 

[Andy Sager]

Where to start??? lol

First, I guess, is get rid of the HOB on the fry tank. It is the worst possible filter to use for Angel fry. An air driven sponge filter is the best filter to use.
Next, get another air stone. At this point, you just need the water moving not necessarily filtering as the fry at this point are not really making a mess that needs to be filtered.

Can they survive in a 10 gal? I've raised over 1 million Angelfish fry and they all started out in a 10 gal tank so , YES, they can survive in there

If you want, you can move all the fry into the 10 gal as there is no need to keep the fry with the parents after they hatch. Now, the parents are only good for protection and nothing else. Losing the spawn will not damage the parent's desire to spawn again.

Food: DO NOT FEED FIRST BITES! If you read the label, it says it's for livebearer fry. They trick you with a picture of angelfish but this is not the best food to feed.
Studies have been done and still nothing beats newly hatched brine shrimp as the best first food to feed Angelfish fry. In some cases, depending on the variety of Angel, ( mostly Platinums and Albinos from what I've read) you may need to feed rotifers or other microscopic foods to get these fry large enough to handle baby brine shrimp. With the brine shrimp, you want to feed it within the first 6 hours +/- of it hatching for optimum nutritional value.
This brings me to: Stop the brine shrimp factory for now. BBS can be hatched in warm water in 24 hours or less so you don;t need to start the hatchery until the fry are free swimming. The day after they start swimming is the day they must have food. That first day they can still survive using the nutrition they got from their yolk sac.

Feeding the fry can best be done with a turkey baster. Suck some up in the baster and gently release some in front of the fry. Once they get used to feeding, you won;t need to be so precise in where you direct the food. Same goes for the big tank should you leave any in there and they survive.

Surviveability in the big tank: The odds are not in your favor of these fry surviving with all those other fish. You may get lucky with some if they hide really well but again, while not impossible, the odds are not good.

I strongly recommend you read through the thread "Wigglers at last!!!" in the breeding forum. Just about everything you need to know about raising Angelfish fry has been discussed on that thread. It was an ongoing thread for a couple of years ( I believe) so there is A LOT of information in there (including hatching brine shrimp quickly and properly setting up fry tanks.)

You can PM me after you read Wigglers if you still have questions

 

[Hobbiest]

I've had angels for a very long time this is the first time I let them breed. I took my pair out of community tank and put in twenty gallon, your right when you said they won't survive in main tank, if other fish don't get them your filter will. Take it from a beginner there is a lot of work trying to raise these adorable little things and you need multiple tanks. I allowed the parents to raise them in a twenty gallon taking care of the predator problem in my main tank now two months later I have two adult angelfish with at least thirty juveniles in a twenty gal. not so good! Now I bought another thirty gallon tank to move the fry to, but I first have to figure out how to acclimate them to a new tank and how to separate them from very devoted parents. My main tank is 65 gal but the fry are not big enough to join yet.
You do end up putting money into raising the fry and trust me when I say I don't have a lot. I live in a trailer and now have a fish tank on almost every wall, surprised my husband hasn't shot me yet .
If you separated your wigglers from parents you have to have a air stone in the tank near them and you cannot have a regular filter it will such your wigglers up, use a sponge filter. While they are in the wiggler stage there is no need for food they are stuck to a yolk sac they feed off of until free swimming. The best food for them once free swimming is baby brine shrimp eggs but if you don't have a hatchery, because you can't buy them, I fed mine Instant baby brine shrimp by Ocean Nutrition and they did fine until they were big enough for first bites or crushed flakes.
A ten gallon is fine to have your fry in but eventually they will need a grow out tank and depending on how many make it decides how big. These babies are adorable and I was determined to raise at least one batch it can be very rewording to watch the parents raise them, but you really need to be devoted to go through all of this.
Sorry so long, but as a beginner breeder I know how many questions can arise. I don't know a lot about breeding without parents but ask Andy Sager she breeds angelfish and is always willing to help also check out the thread about angel fish fry on this forum it has a lot of useful info in it. good luck

 

[Hobbiest]

Sorry Andy I didn't know you responded while I was typing post. I don't type very fast.

 

[Linwood]

Where to start??? lol

First, I guess, is get rid of the HOB on the fry tank. It is the worst possible filter to use for Angel fry. An air driven sponge filter is the best filter to use.
Next, get another air stone. At this point, you just need the water moving not necessarily filtering as the fry at this point are not really making a mess that needs to be filtered.

First, thank you.

So that I can understand (not arguing, really)... what's different about a HOB with a sponge over the intake and an airstone inside a sponge?

If you want, you can move all the fry into the 10 gal as there is no need to keep the fry with the parents after they hatch. Now, the parents are only good for protection and nothing else. Losing the spawn will not damage the parent's desire to spawn again.

Well, at this point it is more curiosity than anything. I didn't really set out to raise angels, but observing the parenting behavior is fascinating.

Food: DO NOT FEED FIRST BITES! If you read the label, it says it's for livebearer fry. They trick you with a picture of angelfish but this is not the best food to feed.

Interesting, their instructions online explicitly say egg layers also, and the next post after yours mentions them also.

But I did get brine shrimp, and I have rotifers.

This brings me to: Stop the brine shrimp factory for now. BBS can be hatched in warm water in 24 hours or less so you don;t need to start the hatchery until the fry are free swimming. The day after they start swimming is the day they must have food. That first day they can still survive using the nutrition they got from their yolk sac.

I plan to read through that thread later this morning, but this is where I am a bit confused. I watched more than one video about them, and the theme seemed to be "feed once all are swimming" not 24 hours later. Since I didn't know when they were spawned, I was unsure when they might free swim, which is why I had this going.

But I can wait a full cycle after they become free swimmers?

My plant was to try to keep a set of shrimp growing all the time just in case.

More later once I do more reading -- have to run errands now. They are not launched yet. Though I was surprised -- the parents moved every remaining wiggler to a different leaf, must have decided the first was defective since some disappeared.

 

[Andy Sager]

Sorry Andy I didn't know you responded while I was typing post. I don't type very fast.

Not a problem I don;t type fast either

 

[Andy Sager]

First, thank you.

So that I can understand (not arguing, really)... what's different about a HOB with a sponge over the intake and an airstone inside a sponge?



Well, at this point it is more curiosity than anything. I didn't really set out to raise angels, but observing the parenting behavior is fascinating.



Interesting, their instructions online explicitly say egg layers also, and the next post after yours mentions them also.

But I did get brine shrimp, and I have rotifers.


I plan to read through that thread later this morning, but this is where I am a bit confused. I watched more than one video about them, and the theme seemed to be "feed once all are swimming" not 24 hours later. Since I didn't know when they were spawned, I was unsure when they might free swim, which is why I had this going.

But I can wait a full cycle after they become free swimmers?

My plant was to try to keep a set of shrimp growing all the time just in case.

More later once I do more reading -- have to run errands now. They are not launched yet. Though I was surprised -- the parents moved every remaining wiggler to a different leaf, must have decided the first was defective since some disappeared.

Here's the short answer to all your questions, READ WIGGLERS thread
But in case you don;t or can't find it
The difference in the filters is water movement. A HOB moves too much water and truthfully, unless you get a product made specifically for that filter, you are doing more damage to your filter by restricting the water flow ( This was told to me by the manufacturer of Hagen HOBs) Since the water is still being sucked into the tube, it can also suck the fry to the filter intake. With an air driven sponge filter ( Notice I said AIR DRIVEN not a sponge filter with a powerhead ) the fry won;t get dragged into the filter as the force is not as great.

Yes, watching a pair of Angels with their offspring is a rather pleasant experience however, in a community tank, it takes its toll on the other fish in the tank and eventually the parents as well. They will have to exert more energy to protect their fry so they either kill off the intruders or run themselves ragged keeping them away from the fry. I would suggest, if you want to see the fish "do their thing", Set them up in a tank large enough to handle all those fry, by themselves, and let them have at it. Keep in mind tho, Angelfish are known to kill off one spawn when they prepare for their next spawn. This is why most professional breeders don;t let the parents raise their fry.

First bites: Do you believe everything you see online is true? After I bought the package, I read the directions and it specifically said " for all livebearing fishes" so they may have caught that and changed the wording. Truth is, Egglayer fry are more attracted to food by it's movement so the first bites still is not the best first food for these fish. As I said, there have been a number of studies done, ( there is a link to one of them in Wigglers) that says that even decapsulated brine shrimp was not as good as newly hatched brine shrimp. Decapped can be fed once the fish get used to feeding and in conjunction with live.

Live brine shrimp: It's also been found that newly hatched brine shrimp consume the most nutritious part and the reason we feed it( their yolk sac) in the first few hours of life so the longer they are alive, the less nutritious they get. As I described in Wigglers, after the first day, I feed 3 times per day and use 3 bottles to hatch out shrimp so that every feeding is with shrimp no more than a few hours old. My suggestion to wait was based on the fact that you didn't know exactly when the fry hatched. Most breeders are finding the fry to become free swimming from 5-7 days after hatching. If you start hatching shrimp expecting them to swim in 5 days but they take 7 days, the shrimp are not really of much value to the fry. This is why/ how you can use the option to wait and still not effect the fry. Once you get the fish's routine down, you can have shrimp ready for future spawns for the day you expect them to start swimming.

Moved fry: ( Also discussed in Wigglers ) This is another thing that is a natural action that can drive a breeder CRAZY!! It's called " Find the fry a.k.a. Where's the babies?????." The natural thing is to keep the fry in different places so that the other fish can't always find them to eat them. You will even see a pair in a tank by themselves do this. It's just part of their natural breeding routine. It's fun, the first time, but can get really old and dangerous for the fry when they are in a community tank if the parents put the fry in the wrong place. What happens then is the game " ALL GONE!!!!"

Lastly, I'm sure there are a lot of videos and columns written about breeding Angelfish online and everybody has their own methods. The methods I describe have been what I have done for over 40 years of breeding these fish. They are tried and true and are working exactly the same way in 2014 as they did in 1966. That's how good this method works. I have owned and/ or operated 3 hatcheries dedicated to breeding and raising Angelfish( over 1 million in one of the hatcheries) in my career and am currently setting up my 4th. I've had as many as 100 pairs going at one time so I have seen just about all that this fish does when it comes to breeding and raising. If you want to raise Angels as a hobby, or for some extra cash, what I do is a great way to copy to achieve this. Be warned however, it requires a number of tanks or tank space as these fish, when cared for properly, can bury a hobbyist with fry. It's not for the timid.

Hope this helps

 

[Linwood]

Here's the short answer to all your questions, READ WIGGLERS thread

I started. You do realize it's over 2600 postings long! I got through the first few pages and the last few.

The difference in the filters is water movement. A HOB moves too much water and truthfully, unless you get a product made specifically for that filter, you are doing more damage to your filter by restricting the water flow ( This was told to me by the manufacturer of Hagen HOBs).

Understood. I may do so, but right now only that filter is cycled. Also I paid a whole $5 for it (maybe not that) used. If it burns up, no big deal. But it's filled with lots of matrix and a good load of BB, and I hate the thought of having no cycled material in the tank -- the glass walls and floor were cleaned pretty thoroughly before I put this water in (not washed but wiped down).

Next round I'll switch, get a cycled sponge filter ready.

First bites: Do you believe everything you see online is true? After I bought the package, I read the directions and it specifically said " for all livebearing fishes" so they may have caught that and changed the wording.

Of course. "They" wouldn't let you write it if it wasn't true, right?

And yes, it is pretty clearly aimed now at both. But I'm finding brine shrimp are really easy. What I'm doing is just starting a new batch every day, I'll through the prior out after about 36 hours, giving me plenty of food each day. I don't know if I'll need this first batch. They are still attached, sort of. They flop around a bit loose but are not swimming.

They are tried and true and are working exactly the same way in 2014 as they did in 1966. ....
Hope this helps

Thank you. It does. The more I read the more I suspect i am not prepared to raise these in a serious way. I'll try feeding this first batch and see how it goes, but my goal in my two tanks is really easy maintenance -- something that raising fry does not seem to qualify for.

What I may do, however, is dedicate my small tank (45G) to one mated pair. Getting them some food when small would not be too bad (though whether it would stay where they need it... can turn the filter off when feeding). However, it's got a pretty decent flow throughout the tank, so not sure it will work either.

It's been an education. I can see how one SHOULD do it. I just do not have the space (or wouldn't be allowed the space!) to do it properly. in fact the QT probably will have to be shut down as winter approaches and we start having more company (winter in Florida = people up north suddenly decide to come see you; not sure why ).

This is probably a one time experiment. Maybe next summer if things are quieter I'll set something more appropriate up, in the meantime if they spawn in the community tank, maybe it will go well. There's plenty of room in there, by the way -- 220G, lots of plants, and 15 tetras and 6 angels. There WERE lots of shrimp, but I think the tetras (congos) got a bit hungry. I know I put about 75 in there, and I see zero now. Not a good precedent for angel fry I guess.

 

[Andy Sager]

I started. You do realize it's over 2600 postings long! I got through the first few pages and the last few.



Understood. I may do so, but right now only that filter is cycled. Also I paid a whole $5 for it (maybe not that) used. If it burns up, no big deal. But it's filled with lots of matrix and a good load of BB, and I hate the thought of having no cycled material in the tank -- the glass walls and floor were cleaned pretty thoroughly before I put this water in (not washed but wiped down).

Next round I'll switch, get a cycled sponge filter ready.



Of course. "They" wouldn't let you write it if it wasn't true, right?

And yes, it is pretty clearly aimed now at both. But I'm finding brine shrimp are really easy. What I'm doing is just starting a new batch every day, I'll through the prior out after about 36 hours, giving me plenty of food each day. I don't know if I'll need this first batch. They are still attached, sort of. They flop around a bit loose but are not swimming.



Thank you. It does. The more I read the more I suspect i am not prepared to raise these in a serious way. I'll try feeding this first batch and see how it goes, but my goal in my two tanks is really easy maintenance -- something that raising fry does not seem to qualify for.

What I may do, however, is dedicate my small tank (45G) to one mated pair. Getting them some food when small would not be too bad (though whether it would stay where they need it... can turn the filter off when feeding). However, it's got a pretty decent flow throughout the tank, so not sure it will work either.

It's been an education. I can see how one SHOULD do it. I just do not have the space (or wouldn't be allowed the space!) to do it properly. in fact the QT probably will have to be shut down as winter approaches and we start having more company (winter in Florida = people up north suddenly decide to come see you; not sure why ).

This is probably a one time experiment. Maybe next summer if things are quieter I'll set something more appropriate up, in the meantime if they spawn in the community tank, maybe it will go well. There's plenty of room in there, by the way -- 220G, lots of plants, and 15 tetras and 6 angels. There WERE lots of shrimp, but I think the tetras (congos) got a bit hungry. I know I put about 75 in there, and I see zero now. Not a good precedent for angel fry I guess.

yes, I realize it's 2600+ posts long. That's because there is a lot of information in there. Not all of the posts are informational and you should be able to read through them fairly quickly but breeding fish takes work. Work to learn and work to do what you learn. The people who find short cuts usually don;t have the kind of successes that people who do it right have.

You have the info needed. Try what you can and see how you do. If it works, Great If it doesn't, change what you are doing.

Keep us posted

 

[Linwood]

They still are not free swimming, in either tank. The small tank (isolated from the parents) they are not wiggling nearly as much, I am worried they are not doing well. They did separate over night quite a bit, one got stuck on the wall where he's easy to photograph, so in case people like to see closeups of fry (singly -- it's all the same one), here are three. The first are front/side lit, the third is more back/side lit.

Fat belly!

Almost makes you wonder if it is really a fish. But now I know where inspiration for science fiction alien life comes from.

 

[Andy Sager]

So far, nothing out of the ordinary has happened with your fry. Angelfish hatch out of the egg shell with a yolk sac still in their belly. It takes approx 5-7 days ( for these domesticated fish we are finding) for the fry to use up ( or absorb) this yolk sac before free swimming. Once the yolk is gone, the fry need to swim to find food.

As for clustering or separating, the fish secrete a "string" like substance to hold them to a place ( usually a plant leaf in the wild) so when they are loose in a tank, it is possible for them to cluster together because their strings got stuck together. Again, this is not abnormal nor any reason to assume anything is happening other than they are sticking together. Once they start free swimming, you will see them also hang together. This is natural as well.

BTW Great pics

 

[Linwood]

BTW Great pics

That I can do !

They are all dead except three in the new tank. Those three are sort of swimming and sort of sticky (one has something hung on its head).

I shot some brine shrimp around them, no idea if it works, but it doesn't look good for this set.

As to the ones in the community tank, she has them on a leaf very hard to see, so not sure. She's still on guard duty.

But I'm still making shrimp each day, for two whole dollars I have brine shrimp for probably a month.

So in a community tank when they are free swimming, will they find something to eat? Just release some brine shrimp into the water column and hope they find them? Or is there likely enough "stuff" in the water they can find something? (it's a 220G tank so lots of room).

 

[Andy Sager]

That I can do !

They are all dead except three in the new tank. Those three are sort of swimming and sort of sticky (one has something hung on its head).

I shot some brine shrimp around them, no idea if it works, but it doesn't look good for this set.

As to the ones in the community tank, she has them on a leaf very hard to see, so not sure. She's still on guard duty.

But I'm still making shrimp each day, for two whole dollars I have brine shrimp for probably a month.

So in a community tank when they are free swimming, will they find something to eat? Just release some brine shrimp into the water column and hope they find them? Or is there likely enough "stuff" in the water they can find something? (it's a 220G tank so lots of room).

One of the nice things about using baby brine shrimp is that you know instantly if the fry are feeding. If they ate, their bellies are orange ( from the shrimp.) If you don;t see orange, the fry haven't eaten.

As for the ones in the community tank, Hopefully they can find some infusoria or some other forms of food if you are not going to feed them directly. Who knows?

 

[Linwood]

As for the ones in the community tank, Hopefully they can find some infusoria or some other forms of food if you are not going to feed them directly. Who knows?

Is there any point in putting some into the water column there? It's large and a lot of flow, so they will be very spread out. But even if 99% of the die in that heavily planted tank it will just be a bit more fertilizer.

But is there any point?

 

[Andy Sager]

But is there any point?

Only if you want to try to save them. Otherwise, there is no point unless the other fish eat them as well.

 

[Linwood]

Only if you want to try to save them. Otherwise, there is no point unless the other fish eat them as well.

Well, I'd like to, I just don't have a lot of hope for them in a predatory environment.

But we'll see, mother is still standing guard. Wish I could see the eggs better.

 

[Linwood]

Well, I was wrong. In the small QT I have about 6 that are free swimming and hovering in and out of the bubbles from the air stone, and hanging out in the top third or so of the tank.

I don't have any brine shrimp ready, a few older ones are in the tank. I put in some rotifers, but it all dissipates so quickly, not sure how successful they are at finding them, but I'll keep adding some, and now that they are up high I can vacuum the bottom.

Still unsure what to do in the community tank to not be the limiting factor. They may get eaten but I'd rather they did not starve.

How concentrated does the food have to be in the water for them to eat successfully? That relates to both small and large tank. I can see how people prefer this stage being in a small bottle, where it is easier to get food right around them.

I'll try to get more photos later if they will get close enough to the side. I'm curious how they really look -- hard to tell through the water by eye.

 

[Linwood]

Might as well turn this into a bit of a photo story for those interested.

Here's one from the small tank:

And a bit of flavor for them in there:

In the community tank the mother has moved most to another leaf:

They look pretty still there, but they regularly launch off, swim a bit, and return.

All of these are pretty blurred, water and glass aren't friendly to macro photography, but it's amazing what the eyes look like.

I went to vacuum the small tank, and found another half dozen or so cruising the bottom of the tank, so I think I'll hold off there a while. Maybe they are finding food.

 

[Hobbiest]

Hello again, the thing is the parents will still put fry in their mouths and move them around the tank even after free swimming. I would look in my tank every morning to see the fry and their was a few times I thought they were gone, it seems at night time the parents would almost corral the babies and still try to stick them too something even though they were free swimming. I would put food in the tank and you would see them scurry apart again, this will happen for quite some time until the parents figure out it's just not any use anymore. I wouldn't underestimate the parents protection though I have around thirty fry that are around two months old in a twenty gal. with parents and I can't walk past tank or feed without upsetting the parents.