Angelfish eggs

[Kelly5978]

Have 2 pair of angelfish who spawned for the second time (each) on Sunday, and then today. The first pair (sunday) is still protecting their eggs, and all looks well. My question about them is: if I do get wigglers, can I remove them to a m.blue/airstone/heater little tank at that point? What about if they made it to free swimming? If I see the parents start eating them, I'm just trying to figure out if there's anything I could do at that point.
The second pair was purchased from a breeder, so this is their second spawn with me, but they've had many before I acquired them. They ate the eggs immediately the first time, so I pulled the eggs this time. Unfortunately, I'm either stupid, or it's a lot more difficult than I anticipated. First, they laid on an air tube! Very hard to remove. Second, I had a hard time getting the air stone underneath them (again...I was working with tubes, not flat slate). Now, I have a 5g tank, with m.blue, airstone, and heater. My questions:
1. What is the best method for removing the eggs that fell off the tube, and are now on the floor? Also, easiest way to remove any that turn white?
2. If I do daily water changes with a turkey baster, do I use m.blue again in the new water?
3. Was I supposed to put prime in the egg tank? I was told not to, but.....it just doesn't make sense to me....and they've been in the water with just the m.blue for 20 min now.
4. The heater in the tank is one that doesn't adjust. Does the water HAVE to be 80%? It's like 79.
5. Does turning the light on affect anything?
6. Is the airstone supposed to blow bubbles directly on the eggs, or next to them? As I said, they're all on a dang tube...so I can't put bubbles on all of them. I can't even lean it so the bubbles run through any of them. Any suggestions?

I don't have much hope that these will live, but I'm trying to learn as much as I can, so maybe I'll do better next time. I DID attempt to find my answers in the wigglers thread, but my phone just won't navigate. I'm sorry for asking any repeat questions, but I really appreciate the help!

 

[1998golfer]

1. What is the best method for removing the eggs that fell off the tube, and are now on the floor? Also, easiest way to remove any that turn white?
2. If I do daily water changes with a turkey baster, do I use m.blue again in the new water?
3. Was I supposed to put prime in the egg tank? I was told not to, but.....it just doesn't make sense to me....and they've been in the water with just the m.blue for 20 min now.
4. The heater in the tank is one that doesn't adjust. Does the water HAVE to be 80%? It's like 79.
5. Does turning the light on affect anything?
6. Is the airstone supposed to blow bubbles directly on the eggs, or next to them? As I said, they're all on a dang tube...so I can't put bubbles on all of them. I can't even lean it so the bubbles run through any of them. Any suggestions?

I don't have much hope that these will live, but I'm trying to learn as much as I can, so maybe I'll do better next time. I DID attempt to find my answers in the wigglers thread, but my phone just won't navigate. I'm sorry for asking any repeat questions, but I really appreciate the help!

Idk much but here's a little advice.. I'm sure Andy will correct me if I'm wrong..
1.I'm not sure about the ones on the bottom, but you can use a toothpick to remove the white ones.

2. You can, but you'll eventually want the m.blue out of the water so you are diluting it with each water change until it's about gone, so I don't think you need you add more.

3. The chlorine in the tap water helps the eggs to not become infected, IIRC.

4. Not sure, but sounds like a good temp to be at.

5.don't believe so

6. Do your best, but the purpose of the bubbles is to keep things off of them so that they don't become infected.


Everything I wrote I learned from the wigglers thread, I've read every page of it and retained some knowledge

 

[Andy Sager]

HI Kelly, Not sure what type of tube you are talking about but if are using a PVC type tubing, you can make a notch or an X in the middle of both ends, big enough to run an airline through it so your airstone will be better positioned. (You do both ends in case it is better to turn the site upside down for better bubble action over the eggs. Had to do that myself today.)
1998Golfer did a good job on your questions. Not much more to add.
Eggs that fall off the spawning site will probably die and there's not much you can do about it. If there is enough airflow near them, they may hatch out on their own.

Once the eggs hatch, there is no need for M. Blue. That's just to keep fungus from forming on the eggs.

Lastly, Moving fry:

I don't know why so many people have this obsession about letting the parents hatch out the eggs? Moving fry is much more serious than moving eggs. With fry, you have to have everything just right when you move them. You can damage them during the transfer, you can miss some that escaped the siphon tube, you can panic the parents and they eat them before you get to them. Any number of things can go wrong. When you move the eggs, you just move the site into another tank using either the same water they came from or new water that matches what they are coming from or a mixture of both. Some M. Blue ( or not) and an airstone and heater and you're done. That's why I move spawns.

Ok, this is lastly Even if the dead eggs fungus, it doesn't mean your whole spawn is a bust. Eggs are going to die, that you can't control. But I just had a spawn from my Marble Angels that even with M.Blue and air and the water they were spawned in, about 90% of the spawn died. I did see a few wigglers so I just let it go. Maybe I get a couple of fish to grow out. Right? Well, to say the least, the eggs still fungused over but interestingly enough, the live fry were hanging on to the fungus threads so I couldn't remove the dead eggs. Yesterday, when I thought I only had about 10 fry, I took a head count of swimmers and there seems to be about 40 fry just swimming away. So you see, the fungus didn't hurt the fry. So don't make yourself nuts at picking away dead eggs. If it's possible, great, do it. If it's too difficult, don't sweat it. You see, picking out dead eggs often leads to damaging the neighboring good eggs. You need a steady accurate hand to do this. And don't think the parents always do it right either. I've seen fish take out sections of good eggs to get to that 1 or 2 dead eggs. Not always a good result.

Ok, this is really the last thing :
Here's a trick you can do. Time the hatching of the eggs. Since they usually take about 72 hours to hatch, at about the 60th hour or so, move the site with the eggs to the new tank right before they hatch. Use the same water they have been in so there is no change felt by the eggs. By doing this, they hatch out and are safe and can go about their natural way and wiggle to their heart's content.

Hope some of this helps

 

[Kelly5978]

Thank you both! Again, I am going to make every effort to get to a real computer, so I can read wigglers (and take notes). I hate asking the same questions. Until I can do that, please bare with me, as I have a few more. I'm talking about the tube that you attach an airstone to. My white angel ignores my slate and plexi-glass completely for these air hose tubes (?). I need a little further explanation on the "x" cuts on the ends. Do you mean for the air stone in the eggs tank? Or the tube the eggs are on. I already figured out I should have had my air stone positioned BEFORE adding the eggs, but I thought I'd have a different sitch all together, so...live and learn! I cut the air hose in the tank (the male angel pecking me for all he was worth, and quickly put them in the prepared 5g (with m.blue and heated to as close to tank water as possible. I'll tell you now, I got scared and added prime, and had my hand in the tank way too much trying to get the bubbles on / close to the eggs. There's no good way to do it, when the eggs literally surrounded the entire tube on every side! So, again....I'm just looking at this as a learning experience. Because of your good advice in the past, I did know when they were going to lay the eggs, and was at least prepared with the heated, m. Blue tank. Next time, I'll be even more prepared (yes....again as you predicted....I know it's coming because it's scheduled like clockwork)! ?. I'm not throwing out this batch. I will let them stay, hope for a survivor or 2, and learn! Couple more questions:
1. If I ever convince them to lay on something flat I can easily remove, am I supposed to use a regular little airstone....that doesn't really get near them all....or a long one that would bubble around all of them?
2. In my research, I read I'm supposed to add acriflavine in addition to m.blue. Is that really necessary?
3. Just so I'm sure...if this had gone better, and the egg tank was right, I would do daily water changes, NOT adding anything (no m.blue or prime)? When would I start those?
4. If possible, could you briefly describe your set up, what you use, etc on my post, since I can't get into "wigglers"?
For the record, I left the other pair's batch in the main tank for 2 reasons: 1. They laid them on fake leaves connected to an ornament. I really believed I would hurt every egg trying to remove them. 2. My water imperfections might not be perfect, but the female is amazing! Her eggs turned all white the first time (she wasn't removing the few white ones). This time, I'm seeing black eyes, and they're ALL amber colored. I've seen some disappear, so she learned! I've got sneaky barbs in there, so she must stay up all night protecting them to have so many left! I would have pulled them if possible, but it's cool to watch her protect her eggs! I don't care to wait any longer than I have to to see babies, so can I pull them at the wiggler stage? Was I wrong to pull the white pairs eggs immediately after fertilization? They started eating them, so I pulled. The breeder pulled them right away, so they prolly don't non what to do....,
Again, thanks for re-answering questions.

 

[Kelly5978]

Andy, the eggs in the tank are now wigglers! Am I able to remove them if I see the parents munching? And, would the "wiggler tank" set up be the same as eggs? I'm assuming not, since the m.blue is supposed to be slowly taken out with water changes...I am going to really try to get to a computer today, but I have to work. So, any advice is appreciated!

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy, the eggs in the tank are now wigglers! Am I able to remove them if I see the parents munching? And, would the "wiggler tank" set up be the same as eggs? I'm assuming not, since the m.blue is supposed to be slowly taken out with water changes...I am going to really try to get to a computer today, but I have to work. So, any advice is appreciated!

If you have other fish in the tank besides the Angels, then YES, move the wigglers. The easiest way is to siphon water from the main tank and put it into your "wiggler" tank then replace that water in the main tank. Use a container if possible to place the "whatever the fish spawned on" into to transport the fry. This way, if they become detached from the spawning site, you still have them to move. Don't worry about them not being attached anymore. They will reattach to something again.
Just use a sponge filter in this tank now with no medications. If you don't have one already going, then put in a new one and it will grow as the fry do. Water changes are not necessary until you start feeding the fry. At that point, you will want to do small changes daily opposed to massive changes weekly. You should be using a piece of airline tubing attached to a piece of rigid tubing to siphon out any debris that is on the bottom of the fry tank. The rigid tubing helps you control where you are siphoning.

I'll try to either draw up what I spoke about with the X in the tubing and try to take better close up pics of my setups. (The X method will not work with airline tubing however. )

Lastly ( and I mean it this time ) try running your airline tubing through a larger diameter PVC pipe so it is not accessable to the breeders. They will HAVE to use something else then. (I don't know how they could be fitting too many eggs on airline tubing. lol )

 

[Kelly5978]

Thanks Andy. Okay, I admit...I don't even know what rigid tubing is???? Can I just buy that at a pet store? I'm going to make you laugh harder now....imagine me (and my impatient, easily frustrated self) trying to cut this air hose, with the male pecking me, trying not to knock eggs off, finally getting the tube/eggs into the 5g with m.blue, and realizing I had no real way to maneuver an airstone under the tube! It got pretty ugly. My scissors got the brunt of my anger...and are in 2 pieces now. Lol. Okay, I'm excited to see your pics! I definitely need help.....obviously! Here's where things stand today:
First pair- still protecting eggs, which are now wigglers. There are sneaky denison barbs (2) in there, so she moved them into my big luge "bush" thing. There are only about 80-100 left. I can still extract them, but I want their tank right first. They are spawning every 10 days (as you predicted), so if I miss it this time, I won't freak. So....just to be sure, I can put a NEW sponge filter in a tank with rigid tubing and air hose (that you will describe or draw), and tank water? I don't have to worry about beneficial bacteria or water changes until they hatch?
Second pairs eggs- somehow, through all of my mistakes, there are only 4 white ones today (of course it's only been 24 hours). Am I supposed to pick the white ones out with a toothpick? (God help those poor eggs, with my crazy hand in their tank! Lol). Also, i think I missed the answer about water changes on the m.blue egg tank. Am I supposed to? And how much? And when am I supposed to start adding prime to new water?
I appreciate you re-answering questions that were prolly answered in "wigglers". My phone is so bad, I can even go back to my own previous pages, let alone someone else's thread. So, really, thanks

 

[Andy Sager]

Okay, you're going to kick yourself BUT, since the eggs were layed on airline tubing, you could have just taken whatever was at the end of the tube off and replaced it with a small airstone that blew larger bubbles and hung that tube straight up and down and the airstone would have been properly placed for the eggs.

Here's a post from Wigglers about fry and M.Blue:
Trick #2 for getting rid of the blue: Lay a bag of carbon on top of the sponge filter and the water will filter through it and the carbon will filter out the blue.

Tip/trick #3_ Every other day you should be using a small diameter hose ( I like airline tubing for this) with a rigid tube end to siphon out any excess food that the fry did not eat. Replacing the water from doing this will also dilute the blue. (Try not to do more than 10%-15% of volume if you are doing it daily.) I prefer the carbon method better HOWEVER, you may be able to find carbon cartridges that fit or can be made to fit your sponge filters and the problem is no longer a problem.

Tip#4- Don't fret about the blue. Really! I'm not kidding. It's not worth hassling the fry to get rid of it. Just go about your regular routine and the blue will disappear.

______________________________________________________________________________

Here is a link to a pic in my Albums of my current incubating station. Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community - Andy Sager's Album: Instruction charts - Picture
You'll notice the jar in the back has a slate in it and the airstone is right in front of the spawn above on the slate. Aeration needs to be steady but not necessarily strong. I can't give you an exact amount as different airstones produce different sized bubbles so they need to be differently set for flow. I'd go with : Set the air to just the point where it looks too strong then dial it back a notch to slow it down. If the wigglers get blown off the site, turn it down some more!!!
Here's a link to the diagram of how it should look:
Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community - Andy Sager's Album: Instruction charts - Picture
The eggs should be on the same side as the bubbles anywhere on the slate/spawning site

______________________________________________________________________________

Ok, I want to address this "Get the egg tank right first" thing. There is nothing you need to do in advance. All the containers in my pic above were empty 5 minutes before I put the eggs in them. I just took a siphon hose and siphoned water out of the breeding tank and put it into the jar or 2/12 gal tank then moved the eggs into the jar/tank. Then I brought it into the house and set up the heater ( I used the preset walmart specials 50 watt heaters) then I set up the airstone underneath the slate, then I added the M. Blue, then I covered the jar or tank and went about my day. There was nothing to get pre-organized besides having these things available and ready to use. Stop making it complicated. It isn't. By using the breeders' water, the eggs face no changes and it eliminates human error on water parameters. That water is perfect just as it is.

_______________________________________________________________________________

Ask your LFS for rigid tubing to fit their airline tubing. (I believe it's 3/16" diameter rigid tubing and should come in 3' lengths.) You can cut, with a sharp knife or hacksaw, a piece of this rigid tubing that is a little bit longer than the height of your fry/ egg tank. Use this end in the tank when it's time to siphon out any dirt and leftover foods. This way, your hands don't need to get wet when you do this. (Just maybe your fingers ) Attach a piece of airline tubing, long enough to reach either the floor or your collecting bucket, to this rigid tubing so that you can just use 1 hand to clean the tank. ( You do know how to start a siphon don't you? ) That's all you need. NOW, you should make a smaller replica of this setup so that you can use it to siphon out your newly hatched brine shrimp as well. The rigid tubing helps you get only the shrimp without all the crap on the floor of the hatching jar.
______________________________________________________________________________

Since the water in the breeder tank should be good and clean and have perfect water parameters, there is no need to worry about creating BB or adding prime to this hatch tank. If your PH is less than 7.0, the ammonia level you will see on a test kit is actually ammonium which is not toxic to the fish. IF it becomes present, the BB will start to colonize in your sponge filter ( if it's a new one or not coming from an established tank.) Until you start feeding the fry, there will be no additional ammonia/ ammonium being created so there's nothing to do. Once you start feeding the fry, you will also be doing cleanup duty daily so the ammonia/um source will be very little and you will be doing small daily water changes so the buildup will be almost nil.
The best way of working this is to set up a few sponge filters in the breeder's tank so that they are established already when you need them. Once you move the eggs or fry into a tank for growing, use one of the established sponge filters and you are done. Don't put an established sponge filter into an empty tank or the BB bed will just die off. Again, no pre- setting things necessary other than water.
_______________________________________________________________________________

Acriflavin: I don't think you can legally get that stuff in the U.S. anymore so don;t worry about it. M. Blue is fine by itself.

________________________________________________________________________________
I think I covered everything. Just ask again if I didn't

 

[Kelly5978]

You are awesome, and I think I've got it....well, for a moment anyhow. I am kicking myself on the airstone bit, but she won't have this option next time amyways (as I'm getting the PVC you recommended). Okay, few more questions, (I will refer to the first pair's spawn, now wigglers, but still in main tank as "a", and the white pair's eggs as "b")
A: the female moved them almost inside this big leaf/bush thing (goes from top to bottom of tank), and I can't get them without destroying the tank. She has moved them twice now (I'm guessing from the sneaky barb). They are definitely wiggling around, and in fact, I've seen one fall off....but the mom grabs and replaces it. She stupidly put them pretty much under the filter current, so they're "swaying" in addition to wiggling. In fact, they appear to be more stuck to EACH OTHER than the leaf. Is that normal? I understand that the danger will worsen if they do make it to free swimming (which should be about 7 days from eggs laid, or wiggler status)? My real question: if they become free swimming...is there a safe way to remove them then? And would I use the same tank set up as if they were wigglers? (No m.blue, heater, sponge filter, daily small water changes with tube, rigid air hose)? Should I put the sponge filter in the main tank NOW, so that if they ever are in a position that I can extract them as free swimmers, the filter will be established?
B: these are the eggs on the tube in the m.blue 5g. You may have answered this, but I missed it. Somehow, all but 4 eggs are still amber/clear. Do I need to remove the white ones? Or will the m.blue stop the fungus from the 4 dead eggs from spreading?
Finally: if B eggs keep looking good, can I put both sets of wigglers (A wigglers would be 2 days older than B) in the same tank? Same question for free swimmers. If I get say 50 each from both batches, can I put them together as free swimmers? Or would the bigger A swimmers eat the B?
Thanks so much! Even if these 2 sets of eggs don't make it, I will be far better prepared next time! I feel quite fortunate to get to the wiggler stage on only my/their second try! I'm so close....

 

[1998golfer]

Use a toothpick to remove the dead white ones.

 

[Kelly5978]

I thought that's what you said to do! Really sorry. I hate my phone. Okay, removing white ones from B.
A wigglers now have eyes and tail. It's been 5 days since I saw eggs. My tank is 82 degrees, so I'm wondering if the process wasn't slightly sped up. I can answer now, about why (at least I) want to leave them with the parents so badly....this female has fought hard to keep them alive. I swear, I don't think she sleeps! And, she'll only eat if I make food go down to her. I know she will probably eat them once they're free-swimming...or the barbs will get them, but I just hate taking them from her! I know...I'm such a girl! Anyhow, she moved them again, and I can get them I think. Waiting on confirmation that I do free swimming fry tank the same as I would wigglers. Since they already have eyes and tails, about how long do I have? I want to pull them now, but I'd really kick myself if I did their tank wrong, and they all died! I'm setting up the tank tonight.....please let me know if I need to do anything different. I understood the bacteria growing on a new sponge with wigglers, but if they're swimmers, I feed them right....so do I need to put the sponge in the main tank now, to "establish" a little, or will tank water with a new sponge be enough? (Not second guessing your advice, just making sure I have it right! This is one of the most fulfilling experiences I've had! I'm trying to keep my excitement contained!

 

[Andy Sager]

I thought that's what you said to do! Really sorry. I hate my phone. Okay, removing white ones from B.
A wigglers now have eyes and tail. It's been 5 days since I saw eggs. My tank is 82 degrees, so I'm wondering if the process wasn't slightly sped up. I can answer now, about why (at least I) want to leave them with the parents so badly....this female has fought hard to keep them alive. I swear, I don't think she sleeps! And, she'll only eat if I make food go down to her. I know she will probably eat them once they're free-swimming...or the barbs will get them, but I just hate taking them from her! I know...I'm such a girl! Anyhow, she moved them again, and I can get them I think. Waiting on confirmation that I do free swimming fry tank the same as I would wigglers. Since they already have eyes and tails, about how long do I have? I want to pull them now, but I'd really kick myself if I did their tank wrong, and they all died! I'm setting up the tank tonight.....please let me know if I need to do anything different. I understood the bacteria growing on a new sponge with wigglers, but if they're swimmers, I feed them right....so do I need to put the sponge in the main tank now, to "establish" a little, or will tank water with a new sponge be enough? (Not second guessing your advice, just making sure I have it right! This is one of the most fulfilling experiences I've had! I'm trying to keep my excitement contained!

Reread my last response about "pre-setting up tanks". This will kill more fry if you do it wrong. I described, in detail, what to do. ( Same method as with moving eggs.)
From wiggler to free swimming is approx 5-7 days. If they become free swimming in a community tank, their chances of survival go way down.

Keeping the fry with your breeders can be seen in 2 directions. I understand your point that you think you are rewarding the female for her efforts.
The opposite side of that coin is the stress you are putting the breeders under to keep those fry safe. And the chances are growing by the day that it will all be for naught as historically, fry in a community tank are usually eaten by the other tankmates. ( Heck, with some livebearers, the threat is from the parents too.) So you can take whichever position you want on this topic. My experience is that if you want a quantity of fry to survive, they should be taken from the parents and artificially hatched and reared by themselves. If you want to have parent raised fish fry, switch to fish like Convicts or kribenses or even Oscars. These are much better at raising their fry than Angels. They will keep tankmates away with more force. Again tho, I still submit that even these fish will be better served if alone in a tank to breed and raise their fry.

To answer your other questions:
Using a siphon hose is the best way to move fish fry. Netting can damage the fry. You can control the speed of the siphon so as to not have them GUSH through the hose and get hurt on the departure. This will not be easy either, most likely. (Just another reason to move the eggs or fry before they start swimming. )

When you use the PVC piping, run the airline through the top down to the bottom and out through a notch (that you will have to make) so the fish can not spawn on the airline. This was what I was talking about with the "X"
If the end of the pipe were a compass, you want to put a notch, big enough to have airline pass through it, at Due North, Due East, Due West and Due South. Do the notch at both the bottom and the top ends. This way, no matter where they spawn on the PVC, you should be able to run bubbles in front of it by using the notch/ notches to hold the airline and airstone in position. By having notches on both ends, if it is better to turn the pipe upside down for better bubble contact, you have that ability all ready there.

The fry tank should be set up with a bare bottom, heater, sponge filter, some live plant if you have them or plastic if you don;t ( just to make them feel a little secure. ) and possibly an extra airstone depending on how much flow your sponge filter has. That's it. No M. Blue either. If the sponge filter isn't already established, use it new and keep tabs on the ammonia/ nitrite levels. If they start to rise quickly, you are feeding the fry too much and you can use PRIME to detoxify them for now but you should take some established filter media from your main tank and lay it on the sponge filter to start the transfer of BB after doing some water change.
Feeding should start the day of or the day after they become free swimming. Depending on how large the fry are will determin if you need to start with newly hatched brine shrimp or a few days of smaller foods like micro worms or infusoria ( green water) before switching to brine.

Picking dead eggs is a dealer's choice. I don't do it.

Think that's got it

 

[Kelly5978]

I actually can't think of another question....yet! Lol. So, THANK you for all this invaluable info! You also convinced me on moving the fry. I might THINK the momma deserves the reward of her babies (I swear she hid and sulked last time for 2 days, because they all turned white in 48 hrs), but the poor fish is prolly gonna kill herself going after anyone who comes near. She of course moved them to another spot I can't reach, but I'm gonna try after work, as it's waterchange day anyhow. I spoke too soon, I do have a couple questions: anyone have advice on where to get rigid air tubing in Anderson, IN? I went 3 places with no luck! Also, will brown algae hurt the fry? I'm only asking this in case I CANT get them out. I've never seen algae in my tank before, but I had to recharge my purigen a week ago, and big bush/leaves monstrosity got brown algae on the top leaves (they are exposed to air right before water changes, due to evaporation....could that be causing it too?) I purchased a clearmax, in case it's a phosphate problem, but I'm afraid to use it, as so many people have had trouble. I'm going to scrub the leaves and see if it reforms....if I can get the wigglers out of it....tonight.
B. I switched the airstone to come out the bottom of the tube, and yes....kicked myself all night. It's perfect. Unfortunately, about half the eggs were white by then, and a lot of tiny particles came off the tube once I had the air distributed properly. About half of the remaining eggs have that "hardening" look they get right before turning white. Is it even possible that any are viable? The male had a really difficult time fertilizing (he's a lot bigger than the female), and I made a mess of things getting them positioned. I'd like to clear the tank, but not if there's a chance a few will live. Is there any approximate number of days that if they make it past that number....they're fertile and viable? It's been about 55 hours now.
Okay, I'll report back on how things turn out, and I've asked for a new phone for Christmas! lol.

 

[Kelly5978]

One more thought/question.... Since I'm pretty sure B eggs aren't going to make it, can I remove the m.blue with carbon, put sponge filter in, put wigglers in, and let them eat any viable eggs? I did a little research last night, and I'm pretty nervous about trying to get them to eat. I am going to stop at the pet store, and look into getting brine shrimp cultures (and they sell "first bites" if I can't get brine shrimp), but I was just wondering if I could leave the eggs of B?

 

[Andy Sager]

One more thought/question.... Since I'm pretty sure B eggs aren't going to make it, can I remove the m.blue with carbon, put sponge filter in, put wigglers in, and let them eat any viable eggs? I did a little research last night, and I'm pretty nervous about trying to get them to eat. I am going to stop at the pet store, and look into getting brine shrimp cultures (and they sell "first bites" if I can't get brine shrimp), but I was just wondering if I could leave the eggs of B?

At this point, giving dead eggs or even viable eggs to fry is not a good idea. They will be too small to eat them. Just clean out the tank and start fresh (that also goes for any time you have a new batch of anything.)
You can try to get frozen Baby brine shrimp (like Bob uses) at the store or you can get cultures of microworms or infusoria if the store carries them but you will need to get these going quickly. The fry need to be fed once they become free swimming ( about 5-7 days from hatching.) As for first bites, I've not used it on Angels but when I tried it on my Betta Fry, it was a bust. (First food my eye!! lol ) In my experience, Angels need to be fed live (or moving) foods as a first food. You can graduate them to dead or non "traditional" foods once they are large enough to handle the other foods.

As a side note, my last spawn happened within hours of putting the slate into the tank. I removed the slate and put it into a jar. For the next 2 days, the eggs kept falling off the slate up to the point that this morning, there were only about 6 dead eggs still attached to the slate. ( I have no idea why they didn't stick ) HOWEVER, today was supposed to be hatch day so I looked with my magnifying glass at the bottom of the jar and amongst the dead white eggs was a few wiggling tails. As I said in a previous post, Don't worry if they fall off. If they are viable and near a bubbling source, they will hatch. (These were right next to the airstone. Just as I described yours could be. )

 

[Kelly5978]

Thanks. I have another tank, so maybe I'll give B eggs a few more days....I'm so nervous about moving A wigglers, but I'm going to follow your instructions exactly, and I'll get more chances if I fail. I guess I expected them to be bigger! I'm fascinated by their little eyes, but they must have been "wigglers" for 24 hours before I even realized, because the mom was moving them around, and not fanning them anymore. There's so much to learn and remember! ?. I'll probably have a zillion questions after the move, so for now....thanks again!

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks. I have another tank, so maybe I'll give B eggs a few more days....I'm so nervous about moving A wigglers, but I'm going to follow your instructions exactly, and I'll get more chances if I fail. I guess I expected them to be bigger! I'm fascinated by their little eyes, but they must have been "wigglers" for 24 hours before I even realized, because the mom was moving them around, and not fanning them anymore. There's so much to learn and remember! ?. I'll probably have a zillion questions after the move, so for now....thanks again!

@78- 80 degrees, the eggs hatch in approx. 72 hours. If the temp is higher, they hatch sooner. HOWEVER, as long as the eggs are NOT white, they have the chance to hatch. I strongly suggest you use a high powered magnifying glass. ( you can see mine next to the 2 1/2 gal tank ) It makes seeing the fry when they hatch much easier. The whole process is that they absorb that yolk sac and grow when they are in the "wiggler" stage and start searching for food once they become free swimming. The fry are basically the size of the egg when they hatch or maybe a little longer than the egg so they are small. Being this small requires that they have small food to eat. This part can be an adventure

I'm not going to go through all the possibilities but let's just say that there can be a number of reasons why the wigglers don't become swimmers. I've had this happen in 3 of my last large spawns. It's the fish, not you. Just make sure you take notes of everything you did and the conditions of the water to make sure.

Believe it or not, getting Angelfish to breed is the easy part. It's getting the fry to live and grow that's the hard part. Be prepared for a challenge

 

[Kelly5978]

These wigglers are pretty "wiggly", so I'm actually interested in how they could NOT become swimmers, so I'm prepared! As I stated earlier, some of them seem to be stuck more to each other, that to the leaf the mom currently has them on (I swear she knows I'm coming for them....she has them DEEP in the bush/leaves thing, and I'm sooo afraid to move them)! Honestly, I can barely see them at this point! I'm getting ready to do my water change, and attempt this. ?. A couple last min questions....
1. I know you hate dividers, but if I just CANT get the wigglers, I'm thinking of at least dividing the other fish off (the pair gets a new tank right after this spawn...). Should I keep the male with the female and wigglers? She seems to trust him....she'll peck at him, he will go sit with the wigglers, and she zooms around every part of that side of the tank, delivering blows to any fish in her way....so hard, I can't believe the others aren't hurt! But, I've heard the male is more likely to eat them, and the female is DEFINITELY the caregiver in this situation!
2. The big leaves/bush thing she has them in is RIGHT under the filter. I hold my breath every time the leaf they are on moves, because they all fly into the air, but managed to stay attached (or mom re-attaches them). I could have removed the leaf attached to a log, that she had them on last night....but NO WAY can I remove this huge bush thing, and it wouldn't fit in the new tank anyways. So....you said I didn't need to worry if the wigglers fell off, cause they would reattach. If she keeps them in a spot I just can't get them, could I "softly scrape" them off a leaf, into a container (within the main tank)....move them to a new tank, and put them near a new plant to reattach?
The way the wigglers are jumping around, and the mom has to keep putting them back on the leaf, I think my time is short. If she doesn't move them to an object I can remove, I'm looking for any other options. I'd hate to have to kill my beautiful (sneaky) denison barbs for eating them! ?. (Of course, kidding). But, seriously, advise me....divide them, scrape them into container....what should I do???

 

[Andy Sager]

These wigglers are pretty "wiggly", so I'm actually interested in how they could NOT become swimmers, so I'm prepared! As I stated earlier, some of them seem to be stuck more to each other, that to the leaf the mom currently has them on (I swear she knows I'm coming for them....she has them DEEP in the bush/leaves thing, and I'm sooo afraid to move them)! Honestly, I can barely see them at this point! I'm getting ready to do my water change, and attempt this. ?. A couple last min questions....
1. I know you hate dividers, but if I just CANT get the wigglers, I'm thinking of at least dividing the other fish off (the pair gets a new tank right after this spawn...). Should I keep the male with the female and wigglers? She seems to trust him....she'll peck at him, he will go sit with the wigglers, and she zooms around every part of that side of the tank, delivering blows to any fish in her way....so hard, I can't believe the others aren't hurt! But, I've heard the male is more likely to eat them, and the female is DEFINITELY the caregiver in this situation!
2. The big leaves/bush thing she has them in is RIGHT under the filter. I hold my breath every time the leaf they are on moves, because they all fly into the air, but managed to stay attached (or mom re-attaches them). I could have removed the leaf attached to a log, that she had them on last night....but NO WAY can I remove this huge bush thing, and it wouldn't fit in the new tank anyways. So....you said I didn't need to worry if the wigglers fell off, cause they would reattach. If she keeps them in a spot I just can't get them, could I "softly scrape" them off a leaf, into a container (within the main tank)....move them to a new tank, and put them near a new plant to reattach?
The way the wigglers are jumping around, and the mom has to keep putting them back on the leaf, I think my time is short. If she doesn't move them to an object I can remove, I'm looking for any other options. I'd hate to have to kill my beautiful (sneaky) denison barbs for eating them! ?. (Of course, kidding). But, seriously, advise me....divide them, scrape them into container....what should I do???

At this point, If you can't move the whole site the fry are on, (and I don't hate dividers, just the way they are used ) instead of dividing the tank, I'd remove the other fish from the tank and let the fish just be with the fry. Set up some sponge filters in the tank and turn off the HOB filter.
This spawn is going to be a learning spawn it seems so let's learn what to and not to do. (I think you now know what not to do and why ) Chances are you will not be able to scrape them off of what they are on for them to attach to something else. You'd be better of snipping off what they are on and moving that but again, at this stage, you are probably going to do more harm than good.

The fry, once they become free swimming, may be able to find microscopic foods amongst the gravel to help them along until you get another food source going. Once you start feeding brine shrimp, you are going to have to watch the fry to make sure they have that distinctive orange belly post eating. ( We call it BSB. Brine Shrimp Belly )
You can see it here:
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f82/wigglers-at-last-237956-179.html Post #1785

From here, you'll need to keep your eye on the water quality as you will also probably need to overfeed the fry to make up for food they lose in between the gravel.
Once the fry become free swimming, they tend to stay together so if you wanted to try to siphon them out at that point, you might have better luck than now.
That's what I would do at this point.

NOW, to address some things:
The gender of the fish does not ( from everything I've been told, read about or experienced) determine the likelyhood of eating eggs. Case in point, the lone female from the trio recently spawned on her own, the other female from the trio ate most of those eggs and you could see her belly was so big that I thought she was going to pop. I've had females run a line of eggs and then turn around and rerun the line and eat the eggs she just layed. So as I said, I think you are getting some questionable information.

The attachment thread is produced by the fry not the parent. It's the natural way for the fry to keep from getting blown off the spawning site by river currents. If there is no current in the tank, the fry may or may not reattach themselves so you really can't tell.

Water changes are not really necessary at this point unless the nitrates are high. I'd hold off on them until you are removing water for filling up a fry tank and I'd be using that water to fill the fry tank for starters. Small changes after that will be easier on the fry.

That's it for now.

 

[Kelly5978]

First, you're a genius! Second, I hope you can respond soon. Okay....
As for B....I turned on light, saw NO eggs left on the air hose, and (sadly) figured I had an empty tank for B fry. Because of your advice, I pulled out a magnifying glass. Probably 20 tails protruding from eggs on the bare tank floor. What now? And, why did they fall off the air hose? I haven't touched the tank since I got the air hose situated. The current is the same. Was it too strong for the wigglers, even though the eggs held on? They are surrounded by dead eggs (also on the floor). You probably told me, but I'm drawing a blank. I held no hope, so they're in a bare 5g, with heater and m.blue, airstone, and dead eggs. What now? Should I add a plant or whatever? There's nothing else for them to cling to, and one of the "eggs with tail" isn't moving. The other 19 are wiggling, but I didn't notice without the magnifying glass. If I can save them, tell me how, pls.
A.....so, I literally was getting out the vacuum for a water change. So...you think I can't remove the other 8 fish. Some are just too big. But, you think I should just "do nothing"? My nitrates are 10. Everything else is good. But, there is brown algae at the top of the huge leaf/bush the mom has them in. Won't that hurt them? Wouldn't dividing the barbs away at least give them a fighting chance? And, why shouldn't i do my scheduled water change at the other end of the tank (it's a 55g long/tall)....besides, if Im Leaving the fry, I want to at least put pantyhose over the filters (I am not as prepared as I thought...I only have 2 small sponge filters for 10g tanks....which won't work in a 55....right? I am not doubting you, just making sure I understand....and at least follow your instructions to the best of my ability!