another cycling question

[Narco.sys]

Hello, thanks a lot for the help I've been getting so far.
I'm testing my water 2x times a day right now and been doing water 25% PWC's once a day. My current readings are: Ph 7.0, Ammonia 1.5 mg/l, nitrites .3 mg/l. I've been very carefull not ot overfeed, basically feeding one flake at a time, and about to do a 50% PWC. The filter on the tank is the emperor bio-wheel 280. Now the guy who sold me the tank and all the accoutrements said that under no circumstances are you to turn the filter off at any time, according to him you lose all the bacteria growing on the bio wheel. Is he right? I mean when the water level in the tank drops below the filters 1/2 mark it's not pumping water anymore, will the impeller get burned out? there's no water running over the bio wheel anyway at that point. Or am I doing something wrong? Also should the seachem prime be added to the buckets of water before I put them in the tank or is it okay to add the water, and then dose it with Prime? TIA for your help on this

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

You can turn off a filter for about 1 hr tops with little to no problems (cannister and closed systems), about 2 hours for a standard filter. but I would try to limit the off time (kinda like gambling)

 

[Narco.sys]

well I only need to turn it off for the PWC's, when the water level drops it makes a racket and the impeller gets hot, since it only takes about 15-20 min to do a PWC, I figured it wouldn't be abig deal. thanks for the reply

 

[Fishyfanatic]

You can just turn off the filter during water changes. It won't be a big deal.

I dose Prime after adding all the water to the tank.

 

[7Enigma]

I would turn off the filter before doing water changes if you will be taking out more water than the bottom of the filter reaches. Do you have fish in this tank? I didn't see it in your profile if you did. If you have fish in there, you need to continue to do PWC's until you get down below 0.5ppm (ideally below 0.25ppm) of ammonia, and your nitrIte will also lower as its not very high right now (but will get higher as your cycle progresses). Its going to take a lot of water changes to get the value of ammonia to safe levels (at least 3-4 PWC's of 50% or more).

I would highly recommend adding Prime to the buckets and agitating the water for a minute or so to ensure it has been properly mixed and eliminated the chlorine and chloramines if present before adding to the tank. Adding tap water to the tank first and then adding Prime is like poisoning yourself and then taking an antidote.....it'll work, but you'd rather have taken it first (bad analogy I know, but its a Monday, whaddaya expect! ).

 

[Fishyfanatic]

Adding dechlor after adding new water does not cause problems. I've done it for over a year now and have never had any problems. In fact, that is how you add water when using a Python.

 

[talloulou]

I always unplug the filter for water changes. I believe that big racket you hear once the water drops low is the filter about to blow its engine It can't be good for the filter to run "dry" so I say unplug it. I have never had any problems and I always unplug the filter.

 

[bosk1]

I don't see it in your post, and I don't recall from other threads: How do you do your PWC's? (python, or bucket method) If you use a python, here's what I do: As soon as I reverse the water flow so that water is flowing INto the tank, I add the dechlorinator so that the incoming water is dechlorinated as it comes in. This was recommended to me. I can't say it is wrong to add the dechlorinator after the water is in, but I will continue to go with the recommended method as it makes sense to me that this is most beneficial for my fish since they sometimes like to play in the stream of incoming water.

Regarding your filter: As others have said, turning it off for a short time should be absolutely fine. You are correct that your impeller/motor can be damaged if you allow it to run dry. Do you have extensions for your filter intake? I have my intake below the 50% line, so I never have to turn my filter off (unless I plan on doing a 75% pwc some day).

 

[7Enigma]

Adding dechlor after adding new water does not cause problems. I've done it for over a year now and have never had any problems. In fact, that is how you add water when using a Python.

In the last 2 weeks I've seen at least 2 threads here where the fish appeared to be "gasping for air" after a water change, and it appeared to be due to the fact that in 1 case no dechlor was added, and in another case, the fish on the end that the python was supplying water were "gasping", while at the other end the fish seemed fine. I don't have the time to find them, but it makes perfect sense.

Your adding a capful of dechlor (5ml for a 50gallon tank), and expecting it to instantaneously diffuse throughout the water column? I can't imagine it's great for the fish, let alone the bacterial colony, to have a short blast of chlorinated water.

Here's an experiment. Take a tank you have hanging around (a 10-20gallon QT tank or something), and fill it with water, and put a filter on it. Now pour in a capful of blue dye and see how long it takes to become completely distributed. Even with the agitation from the filter, I'm positive it would still take longer than the fish/bacteria would like.

I think the safe way would be to have an intermediate place where the dechlor could be added and mixed fully before introduction to the main tank. But that's just my opinion.

EDIT: Or at a minimum do what bosk1 suggests.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

I have been keeping the fish tanks for about 18 months now and have been using the python for over a year. We have never had a fish death contributed to adding dechlor AFTER adding water. I was advised that this way was fine by SEVERAL advisors and almost every member that responded to the threads that I posted. If it was such a problem I'd think that over the past year that we've been using the python and adding dechlorinator after the change, we would have had at least 1 fish die. Especially sicne we have Rams and true Rummynose Tetras who are prone to early deaths. It could be possible that those who have had issues recently were caused by other situations, not by adding the dechlor after the water.

Dechlorinator is made to instantly make water safe for fish. I've lived in water districts who use Chlorine and Chloramines and have never had bacterial colonies die or fish suffer. My fish love water changes and play in the water as it is being pushed into the tank. There is nothing wrong with adding it after the water.

 

[bosk1]

I have heard of plenty of people who do it FF's way, so I wouldn't be overly insistant that the dechlor be added first. But I would say the advice I have seen on the subject is about 75% who add before/during, and 25% after, and the before/during approach makes more sense to me, so that's what I do. FF definitely seems to know what she (I think I got your gender right; please forgive if I didn't) is doing.

 

[7Enigma]

Dechlorinator is made to instantly make water safe for fish.There is nothing wrong with adding it after the water.

That's the problem. It's not in the water when it's added to the tank. Regardless of if it works instantly (I would argue it is not instant), there is still a period of time when you have tap water added to the tank (and thus in contact with the fish and bacteria) that could contain chlorine or chloramines. I don't doubt in most cases, this does not harm the fish or bacteria. But in some circumstances (high chlorine or chloramine concentration, already stressed or sick fish, sudden temp change, low oxygen) it might be the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

I do it while adding water, that way it gets dispursed around the tank. But many people add it after the water is added. I will add in 1 ml per 10 gal for the entire tank volume at the initial start of adding water. So for the 150 gal tank I add 15 ml when I start the water additions.

I see your logic of thinking 7Enigma, but I have lived in a city where Chloramines were so high that I had to almost triple dose the Prime. Never did we have a fish die. Actually, I think the only fish that died the entire time that we lived there was the eel from lack of food (we are guessing since he burrowed 24/7 and only ate when food floated next to his mouth).

And yes bosk, you have it correct. I am a female.

 

[7Enigma]

Just found one of the threads I was talking about. OP judge for yourself whether you feel OK with adding dechlor after adding water to the tank.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?p=580588#580588

 

[Fishyfanatic]

Yup, I do feel confident in doing water changes and adding the dechlor while refilling. But if you read the thread, the poster did not use Dechlorinator at all.

 

[7Enigma]

The post I was referring to was:

"I have had this happen to me also when using a python. I used dechlorinator, the fish that stayed by the end of the python started gasping, while those at the other end of the tank were okay. I added extra dechlorinator and everyone recovered in about 15-20 minutes. I learned it is important to wait between emptying and refilling to let the dechorinator spread around the tank. Or to stir it around a bit before filling."

 

[Fishyfanatic]

To date we have not lost a single fish or noticed any kind of gasping or struggling with any of our fish (including fry) by using our method. If you choose to pre-treat the water before adding it to your tank, that's your choice. But the alternative is just as good.

 

[Narco.sys]

Wow, thanks for all the replies. I figured as much on the filter, the guy at the LFS is a little strange, managed to talk me out of doing a fishless cycle, and told me that testing for nitrates is pointless. According to him: "Nitrates in the water, is kinda like raw sewage. It won't kill you but you don't necessarily want it there. We don't even test for it here". I didn't even want to get into it with him on the faulty logic. Unfortunately he does have some very nice fish, and they look very well taken care of and healthy, so I guess I'll keep going there. I generally use the python in the bucket method

 

[7Enigma]

Narco.sys,

I can't believe I'm going to say it, but I somewhat agree with the LFS guy! (I know shocking!)

While its nice to have, you really don't need to test for nitrAtes in your tank (unless you have a lot of live plants, or have not changed any water in a long time). They are relatively non-toxic, and do not build up extremely fast (unless your tank is really overstocked).

But wait!!!! Everything I just said is ONLY applicable if you do frequent PWC's. 25% once a week or so or 50% every two weeks is what it normally recommended on this forum. If you neglect the tank for a long time and build up a really high nitrAte number, then yes, you will need to do successive PWC's to get the value down to acceptable levels (lots of debate here, but under 30ppm seems to be a safe limit, I prefer under 20 personally).

So you can get away without a nitrAte test, but its nice to have in case of emergency (fish suddenly dying or looking ill).

justin

 

[Fishyfanatic]

I actually agree with Justin on this one. LOL I don't ever test for Nitrates unless I'm bored and do a full line test. Maybe once a month or two I'll run the trates to make sure that the water change schedule is sufficient. If I notice that the trates are getting up there I'll bump up the percentage of the change or start cutting back on the food being offered. And really the Ammonia and trites only get tested if there has been a recent fish death or after adding new fish. It's important to have the kit during the cycling phase and also if unexplained deaths occur you'll want to know the readings. PLUS, everytime a thread gets posted on AA about something "wrong" in the tank, the first question is always "What's your readings" LOL.