Cannot bring pH down

[sutekh137]

Seven fish died within a couple days on my first try, 10 gallon Top Fin aquarium, tap water, dechlorinated and built up for four days with whatever nutrient stuff Petsmart gave me.

Tested water (at Petsmart) after the fish deaths and everything looked good except elevated pH. I started adding pH Down, and I have added a LOT (as in, more than 30 ml at this point). and pH remains around 8.0. Last night it was 8.10 and I added 10 ml of pH down (that they say to only add 1 ml at a time). This morning pH was 7.9.

I removed everything except the rocks last night (10 pounds of gravel from Petsmart, rinsed before putting in tank). Everything else is just what came with the tank including a bubble-wall aerator at the back with LED lights.

I am thinking I need to replace the water completely and start over, but how is the pH staying so high after adding so much pH Down? Anyone else experience anything like this? I'd rather not depend on pH Down at all, and plan on cycling with bottled/distilled water -- once I can be sure something in the tank isn't raising the pH. What is the best way to deal with this?

Thanks,
sutekh137

 

[Aiken Drum]

What is the pH of your tapwater? To measure this you need to get a jug of water, leave it standing overnight then test the pH after 12ish hours.

Why do you think pH is causing your fish deaths? Unless its way out there pH isnt going to kill fish. Fish are very adaptable.

How did you acclimate the fish to the tank water?

Do you know your other important water parameters? Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?

Did you cycle the tank? What do you understand about the nitrogen cycle?

Despite what they may have told you in the store, adding some stuff to the tank and waiting for a few days wont cycle a tank. It takes a couple of months to cycle to cycle a tank. You can either do this before getting fish, or you can cycle a tank with fish, but 7+ fish in such a small tank will not be safe to cycle with fish.

 

[Aiken Drum]

To add to the above.

If your water has high carbonate hardness (KH), you can keep adding pH down till the cows come home. The KH will just absorb the pH down and have minimal effect on your pH.

Bottled water may be a solution if pH is genuinely an issue, but im far from convinced it is. Distilled water is not a good idea to use in fish tanks as it lacks essential minerals needed in a fish tank.

Unless there is something you havent mentioned, I really think your issues are not understanding the nitrogen cycle, not knowing how to cycle a tank, and overstocking an uncycled tank.

 

[sutekh137]

To add to the above.

If your water has high carbonate hardness (KH), you can keep adding pH down till the cows come home. The KH will just absorb the pH down and have minimal effect on your pH.

Bottled water may be a solution if pH is genuinely an issue, but im far from convinced it is. Distilled water is not a good idea to use in fish tanks as it lacks essential minerals needed in a fish tank.

Unless there is something you havent mentioned, I really think your issues are not understanding the nitrogen cycle, not knowing how to cycle a tank, and overstocking an uncycled tank.

Hi Aiken! Thanks for the response!

I'll try to answer all your questions:

I mainly followed the advice from Petsmart, as I have never had fish before. They told me to set up a tank, with tap water, dechlorinating it and adding the "getting started" fluid (sorry, I do not have it handy and cannot remember what it is called -- maybe Stability?) for a few days. Turned out that was four days, and the next weekend we went to get fish. The next morning the three Danios and three Tetra were dead. The Betta died the next day.

I took a water sample to Petsmart and she did the full workup and said everything looked really good except for elevated pH. So she gave me some pH Down.

Tap water pH is about 7.5 according to a digital reader and some (not very precise) litmus papers that turn ever so slightly green.

I really do not know anything about the other things you mention. To be honest, I thought this was going to be easy, and everything Petsmart told me made it sound as such. I am not sure what you mean by cycling the tank... There is a filter/circulator that has been running all the time since July 4. The bubble wall generates a LOT of smallish bubbles such that the top of the tank is almost fizzy. I read up on over-oxygenated water, but it didn't seem like that was as important as over-nitrogenized water? No one at any point said I would need to wait a month or more for anything, and I was told upfront that a 10-gallon tank should be fine for 6-8 fish, especially if they are small and not going to grow much bigger.

I don't know what Petsmart's test strips all check for, but there were 6-7 pads on there and I know nitrates, ammonia, chlorine and pH were all included. As I said, the person at Petsmart said everything looked good except for elevated pH.

Fish were introduced according to Petsmart instructions: float the bag of fish in the water for 30 minutes (they even said 10 was enough, I disagreed and went 30). But that was only for temperature. We did not do any sort of "slow mix" with regard to the water itself. We dumped the Betta into the water after 30 minutes, and for the other fish we were told to NOT dump the Petsmart water in since it might have other harmful bacteria in it.

So, it sounds like I got nothing but bad information from Petsmart, and that this whole endeavor is probably not for me. I just wanted to do something for my kids because they won carnival goldfish and of course one died the next day while the other is thriving. I wanted to even things up by getting my older kiddo a Betta and do it right with a full aquarium and not just a goldfish bowl (the other goldfish is doing great so far, but I know that won't last). That goldfish has been fine just in tap water, not treated with anything, not even circulated or aerated.

I agree with you, pH doesn't sound like that is what this is, but I am going to need guidance on just about all the questions you asked. I don't know what cycling is more than just circulating the water, and I don't know why Petsmart would give such bad advice (because they don't want the fish to die any more than I do since they give refunds up to 14 days). I don't know what might be in the water that would make it somehow immune to pH changes.

Hopefully I answered enough and perhaps you can point me in some new directions. Please don't spend too much time, though, as it sounds like I just need to put in a few months of research if I want to proceed with this (which in all honesty, I probably won't, as I don't really need more responsibilities around the house).

Thanks again!

sutekh137

 

[Aiken Drum]

Ok. Im a little busy at the moment moving a fish tank across the room. But i will get back to you in an hour or so.

Is there anything left alive? If so i would change 1/3 of the water if you havent already done a water change in the last 24 hours.

 

[sutekh137]

Ok. Im a little busy at the moment moving a fish tank across the room. But i will get back to you in an hour or so.

Is there anything left alive? If so i would change 1/3 of the water if you havent already done a water change in the last 24 hours.

No, the tank is empty.

At this point I think I should just find a guide from scratch and take the time to do this right (not using any advice from Petsmart). It's just 10 gallons of water, and I will go back to just using tap.

Please don't rush or take a lot of time to respond... You have already helped a lot and I will need to start digging in on my own if I want to proceed with this...

Thanks,
sutekh137

 

[Aiken Drum]

Ill drop a few more posts on here that will help you. You can of course do some of your own research as well. Finding things out for yourself is always a useful process.

Ill start off with taking advice from pet stores, especially chain stores. These stores are there to sell you stuff and make money. They sold you bottled bacteria (stability) and told you it makes tanks safe for fish in a matter of days, when it doesnt. They then told you your issues where down to pH, which it "probably" isnt and sold you pH down to correct the issue, which it didnt. The people who work there are often just employees, and know no more than you do or just what they stores management tell them. Thats not to say never listen to them. If you find an employee who is in the hobby, and willing to be honest with you then of course their advice is worth listening to.

Im going to post something about the nitrogen cycle, and then broadly speaking about cycling a tank. There are 2 main methods of cycling, one where you cycle before getting fish, and where you cycle with fish in the tank. Have a think about how you want to cycle your tank and we can give more details on how precisely to do this based on your chosen method.

 

[Aiken Drum]

The nitrogen cycle is the natural processes that go on in your tank that convert ammonia into less harmful substances.

Ammonia gets into your tank through various pathways. Fish waste, decaying uneaten food, and dead, decaying plants are common ammonia sources in an aquarium. Its also possible your tap water is an ammonia source. Chloramine is a common water treatment and when treated with most water conditioners the bond in the chloramine breaks and releases ammonia into the water.

Ammonia can be toxic to fish, depending on how much there is, and what the pH and temperature of your tank water is.

The first stage of the nitrogen cycle is the removal of ammonia. If you have real plants in your tank some of this ammonia will be absorbed as part of their natural growth. Generally though ammonia is consumed by denitrifying bacteria that lives mostly on your filter media. These bacteria consume the ammonia and produce nitrite. Unfortunately nitrite is pretty much as toxic to fish as ammonia.

The second stage of the nitrogen cycle is the removal of nitrite. A different denitrifying bacteria will consume the nitrite and produce nitrate. Nitrate is much less harmful than ammonia and nitrite, and for most aquariums the nitrogen cycle ends there. Excess nitrate is removed through your regular water changes.

A further stage of the nitrogen cycle can also happen, but its difficult to remove all the nitrate from a typical freshwater aquarium. Plants will absorb some nitrate in a similar manner to how it absorbs ammonia to grow. There are also nitrifying bacteria that consumes nitrate and gives off nitrogen gas which will simply offgas from your aquarium. This nitrifying bacteria is difficult to grow in freshwater aquarium.

“Cycling” a tank is the process you go through to grow denitrifying bacteria in your aquarium to consume ammonia and nitrite. You are said to be “cycled” when you have enough bacteria to consume all the ammonia and nitrite that your tank produces and turns all of it into nitrate. If you test the water of a cycled tank you should see 0 ammonia and nitrite and some nitrate.

 

[Aiken Drum]

To cycle a tank you need to grow denitrifying bacteria to consume ammonia and nitrite that your tank produces. The bacteria needs an ammonia source to grow colonies sufficient in size to consume all the ammonia and resultant nitrite and turn it into nitrate which typically you remove through your regular water changes.

Two commonly used methods to cycle a tank are called a “fish in” cycle and a “fishless” cycle.

A fish in cycle uses fish waste as an ammonia source and regular water changes are undertaken to ensure that water parameters are maintained at relatively non toxic levels. This has been the go to method to cycle a tank for many years, and it commonly is the way new fish keepers cycle a tank when they have bought fish with no knowledge that a tank needs cycling and how to go about it.

Pros.

- You get to keep “some” fish pretty much on day 1 of setting up your tank.

- More consistently gets you through your cycle.

- Only real choice if you already have fish.

- If done simply, eg stock lightly, add fish slowly, you can fishless cycle safely without testing. Although testing your water while cycling is still a good idea.

Cons.

- Lots of water changes, especially if you are doing a fish in cycle with a fully stocked tank.

- Although you should be doing plenty of water changes to maintain relatively safe water, your fish will be living in waste which isn’t ideal.

- Can take a long time (several months) to go from an empty tank to fully stocked if done safely.

A fishless cycle uses an ammonia source to replicate the fish waste that a tank of fish would produce. This ammonia source can be pure ammonia, an aquarium specific ammonium chloride product like Dr Tims Ammonium Chloride, a cocktail shrimp or fish food.

Pros.

- You cycle the tank before adding fish, therefore they shouldn’t be exposed to their own waste.

- No need for regular water changes while your tank cycles.

- Can be quicker to go from an empty tank to fully stocked.

Cons.

- Needs patience, you will be looking at an empty tank for several weeks.

- More technical approach requiring dosing ammonia and will need to be done alongside regular testing.

- Less consistently successful than fish in cycles, especially with new fish keepers who don’t understand the process and expect it to run to a timetable.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Ill also add something regarding your goldfish. They get big, and live decades. A bowl isnt a suitable environment and it should really be in a big tank with a good filter, or better yet a pond. Living in a bowl will cause health issues pretty quickly, it wont live a healthy life. If you cant provide a suitable living environment i would look to rehome it somewhere.

A couple of posts explaining what to do in a situation where you suddenly find yourself with a carnival goldfish and a very good example of why goldfish need big tanks.

https://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f135/won-a-goldfish-at-a-fair-carnival-help-here-377527.html

https://www.aquariumadvice.com/foru...uire-big-tanks-visual-perspective-265871.html

 

[sutekh137]

Aiken, thanks again for the multiple posts -- I certainly hope most of that was cut-and-paste. *smile*

I think I will consult with my kids and see what they want to do. If they want to do this right (and will help me out), I will do a fishless cycle, buy test strips, etc. (or whatever is needed) and wait until the tank is ready with straight tap water (I think our tap water is probably fine, for the most part, though it is softened). Otherwise jug water (not distilled) is cheap and fairly portable (better than running pitchers back and forth from the sink. *smile*).

As far as the goldfish, I am not quite sure what to do. I live in a city, and I don't think any local parks or lakes would appreciate my adding a fish to their stores. I don't know many people, certainly no "fish" people. I'll have to think on that.

You knowledge (and willingness to share) is very much appreciated!

sutekh137

 

[Aiken Drum]

Definitely cut and paste.

I dont think you mentioned your water is softened.

Water softeners work via ion replacement. So it doesnt just remove the stuff that makes your water hard, it replaces it with other stuff. This generally means replacing calcium with sodium, and fish don't like high sodium in the water.

Not something i have personal experience of, so cant really help much with it. Some people use water that's gone through a softener just fine, others dont. I know some softeners have a bypass, so you can use unsoftened water for your water changes. Softeners can also use potassium chloride instead of sodium chloride and potassium is less of an issue.

Given this, if you cant bypass, it might be an idea to use bottled spring water in your tanks.

Im not sure if any of our members have water softeners who can give first hand advice.

 

[Aiken Drum]

And dont just dump the goldfish in a local parks pond. By rehome, maybe a local fish store will take it off your hands.

 

[sutekh137]

Definitely cut and paste.

I dont think you mentioned your water is softened.

Water softeners work via ion replacement. So it doesnt just remove the stuff that makes your water hard, it replaces it with other stuff. This generally means replacing calcium with sodium, and fish don't like high sodium in the water.

Not something i have personal experience of, so cant really help much with it. Some people use water that's gone through a softener just fine, others dont. I know some softeners have a bypass, so you can use unsoftened water for your water changes. Softeners can also use potassium chloride instead of sodium chloride and potassium is less of an issue.

Given this, if you cant bypass, it might be an idea to use bottled spring water in your tanks.

Im not sure if any of our members have water softeners who can give first hand advice.

I think bottled water might be the way to go, in that case. Do ion (or sodium) issues show up on test strips, or would that be a different test?

And I will look into getting the goldfish a better home...biggest hurdle there would be my younger kiddo giving it up. A good life lesson, just not sure she can process that... Plus then she would want a Betta of her own, and we can't have two!

Thanks,
sutekh137

 

[Andy Sager]

I see Aiken has given you a lot of information so the only thing I will add is that the most common reasons the PH doesn't drop when amended is either too much aeration or calcium based decor in the tank. Anything that comes from the sea is not a good addition to a freshwater tank unless you are trying to keep the Ph high. Snail shells and natural corals look nice in a tank but do effect the water chemistry. This includes using bottled waters as well. They will start out fine but eventually rise in Ph and hardness with these things in the tank.
Hope this helps

 

[sutekh137]

I see Aiken has given you a lot of information so the only thing I will add is that the most common reasons the PH doesn't drop when amended is either too much aeration or calcium based decor in the tank. Anything that comes from the sea is not a good addition to a freshwater tank unless you are trying to keep the Ph high. Snail shells and natural corals look nice in a tank but do effect the water chemistry. This includes using bottled waters as well. They will start out fine but eventually rise in Ph and hardness with these things in the tank.
Hope this helps

Thanks, Andy!

Nothing but standard aquarium gravel in the tank now, but I am intrigued by the "too much aeration" comment. Too much aeration can lead to higher pH? In my reading, it sounded like too much aeration will just bleed more oxygen into the air? I am using a bubble wall that came with the tank, and it gives off a lit of small bubbles, but not more than pictures of aeration rocks I have seen that send up massive plumes of tiny bubbles.

How can one have less aeration, but still enough? Is there a test for that? And how can I make my bubble wall be less...bubbly?

Thanks,
sutekh137

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks, Andy!

Nothing but standard aquarium gravel in the tank now, but I am intrigued by the "too much aeration" comment. Too much aeration can lead to higher pH? In my reading, it sounded like too much aeration will just bleed more oxygen into the air? I am using a bubble wall that came with the tank, and it gives off a lit of small bubbles, but not more than pictures of aeration rocks I have seen that send up massive plumes of tiny bubbles.

How can one have less aeration, but still enough? Is there a test for that? And how can I make my bubble wall be less...bubbly?

Thanks,
sutekh137

To help give you a not so scientific answer ( I sometimes do that and it makes people crazy lol ) I did a search and got this response:
How does aeration affect pH of water?
When water is aerated, it creates turbulence. The turbulence then causes the aqueous CO2 (carbon dioxide) to outgas. Outgassing of CO2 from water results in an increase in pH. Aeration is the only means of increasing pH that will not increase the Total Alkalinity.

As for how to decrease your aeration, you will need to install a gang valve into your airline. Here's a quick link to what I'm talking about: https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/faqs/how-to-use-an-aquarium-gang-valve
Gang valves are made by a number of companies and come in all sizes from 2 way to 5 or 6 way so you just need one that has one or two more valves than what you are using. ( For example, if you are only running the one bubblewand, you'd only need to get either a 2 or 3 way valve. ( Always good to have a larger number in case you want to add on something else later on. ) What you'll do is run your airline from the pump into the gangvalve then another line from one of the valves into the bubbler. Keep the valve to the bubbler and one extra valve all the way open and close the other valve(s) ( if there are any). Turn on the pump. You will most likely hear a hissing sound coming from the open valve and see no air to the bubbler so no worries. Start closing the open valve until you get the bubbles coming from the bubbler. Stop closing the valve when you get the effect you are looking for. ( It should be less output than what you have now.) What you've now done is reduce the airflow and released the backpressure off the pump which will increase the lifespan of your pump and reduce any noise ( past the usual humming) coming from the pump and have a nice visual display. If the hissing on the open line is too loud, you can run an airline to that and attach a cheapo ( 79 cent +/-) airstone to it and just let it hang off the gangvalve. The stone will act like an air buffer and you shouldn't hear it. Do not put this into the water as that will increase pressure on the pump and defeat the purpose of trying to reduce the amount of aeration into the tank.
How much air is enough? There are a few ways of checking. One is to get a dissolved oxygen test kit. This will test the water for the amount of oxygen the fish have available to use. That's the expensive way. The other way is to watch the fish. If the fish are swimming at the surface and/or are breathing heavy, increase the amount of air in the tank. Depending on the type of fish you have, some naturally swim at the surface but if there wasn't enough oxygen, they would be hyper breathing as well. Some fish will swim in the outflow of the filter. Again, if they are not breathing heavy, they are fine. ( Welcome to the wonderful world of fish keeping where different fish have different behaviors and some of them can make you crazy ) Your water will have enough oxygen in it since you've been hyper oxygenating it so don't worry if the fish are breathing heavy when you first turn on your resetted bubbler. Just keep an eye on them over the next couple hours to make sure they are not breathing heavy. If they are, increase the amount of air to the bubbler. (FYI, I've been using the second method for over 50 years so I know it works. Dissolved O2 tests can get pricey )

Final thoughts: #1: Pretty much any brand of gangvalve will do but if you have the option, get one with the ability to have 2 lines going into the gang valve ( as pictured in the link) vs 1 intake. Always good to have more options. :^) Plastic valves will work as well as metal ones however, plastic ones are more subject to decay and breakage based on the environment they are in. That said, I have some of my plastic ones that are over 30 years old so they can last if you take care of them. Metal ones are just less prone to break from mishandling.

#2: If your airpump is below the level of the tank, I strongly suggest adding a check valve on the line from the pump to the gangvalve to prevent any back siphoning should you lose power. The way to not need this check valve is to keep the air pump higher than the aquarium. Gravity does not run uphill.

Hope this all helps

 

[Aiken Drum]

Could aeration work in the opposite direction and decrease pH? If disolved CO2 is low in the water, would aeration increase gas exchange of CO2 in the same way it does O2 and make the water more acidic?

 

[Andy Sager]

Could aeration work in the opposite direction and decrease pH? If disolved CO2 is low in the water, would aeration increase gas exchange of CO2 in the same way it does O2 and make the water more acidic?

To my knowledge, it won't work in reverse. The CO2 is part of what's causing the Ph to fall. If you decrease the aeration, the exchange of gases diminishes and the Ph falls however, if the oxygen level is too low due to the lack of aeration, the fish don't live so you've defeated your purpose.
You can experiment with this by taking clean water and add CO2 to it and see how much CO2 it takes to lower the Ph. Compare that to a similar sample of water with no CO2. The no CO2 shouldn't change in Ph value after it has settled. Then try adding an airstone to the CO2 sample and see how much aeration it takes to overtake the CO2 that is still being administered. Once you have this, turn off the CO2 and see if the Ph falls. ( It shouldn't. )

 

[sutekh137]

To my knowledge, it won't work in reverse. The CO2 is part of what's causing the Ph to fall. If you decrease the aeration, the exchange of gases diminishes and the Ph falls however, if the oxygen level is too low due to the lack of aeration, the fish don't live so you've defeated your purpose.
You can experiment with this by taking clean water and add CO2 to it and see how much CO2 it takes to lower the Ph. Compare that to a similar sample of water with no CO2. The no CO2 shouldn't change in Ph value after it has settled. Then try adding an airstone to the CO2 sample and see how much aeration it takes to overtake the CO2 that is still being administered. Once you have this, turn off the CO2 and see if the Ph falls. ( It shouldn't. )

Thanks again, everyone. *sigh* I really did not think using the apparatus that came with the aquarium, packaged, could cause all this trouble. I guess I will see once I get the master test kit I ordered and replace the water with bottled.

I do wonder about the bubble wall device... I turned the air on and nothing came out of the little holes along the wall, initially. Air came out a big hole down on one corner, a ribbed shaft that looked like you would hook other things to it. So, it DOES already have a different route for air to flow, but it barely puts out a couple bubbles a second. So, I plugged it. That sent air through the bubble holes all along the device, but they are very small and numerous, maybe too numerous (at this point I really don't know).

Looks like keeping fish is going to be 3D printing all over again (and there is no longer a 3D printer in my home, if you catch my meaning). I'll have to see how much the kiddo is willing to take on, because this already seems a little ridiculous to me when the equipment from pre-packaged set ends up having so many variables to it.

As Aiken said, though, hopefully it isn't the pH at all. We'll see what happens after a fishless cycle. Waiting for my test kit then going to buy a jumbo shrimp. *smile*

Thanks again,
sutekh137