Dying Angelfish

[Andy Sager]

I'd like to take a poll here: How many people go to your favorite pet store or online fish dealer and order Pea size or under dime sized Angelfish? IF you do, how many of them survive to reach maturity?

Back in the late 1970s, all that were available at my local shops were these small sized Angelfish from the Far East that usually did not do well or lasted for just a short time. I started breeding Angelfish and selling larger baby fish that did much better than the imports. Today, I see more pea sized fish being offered again than larger babies and I'd like to know the reason and results.

Thanks for any info

 

[Mr Fisher]

Sadly everything I see locally are pea-pre dime for sale. There's also not many varieties available, mostly "assorted marbles" The 3 stores in my area get shipments the same day and I'm pretty sure it's from the same company. Really poor looking fish that are jam packed in their sell tanks.

 

[gilpi]

I'm guilty. I have always liked angels and most of all growing them. I just recently got five pea sized about a week ago, I expect to end up with about 3 out of the five making it to adult size. So far they are all eating well and look ok but with these little ones is hard to tell and I don't know any local breeders so I have to go with the big chain store purchase, I keep them in a twenty gallon by themselves.
Why do I do this? It presents a challenge, I have in the past grown a few to adult size and at the same time have learned a lot about angels.

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks for the replies.
The sad thing about Angelfish is that even tho they look like miniature adults when they are this small size, they are not the hardiest of fish at this small size. There is a natural die off of fish that even with the best of conditions and care, these fish sadly are not destined to live. The breeder makes their money but you the consumer pays the price. I'd like to change that again. Stay tuned

 

[gilpi]

Thanks for the replies.
The sad thing about Angelfish is that even tho they look like miniature adults when they are this small size, they are not the hardiest of fish at this small size. There is a natural die off of fish that even with the best of conditions and care, these fish sadly are not destined to live. The breeder makes their money but you the consumer pays the price. I'd like to change that again. Stay tuned

I agree. For another couple of bucks more there are bigger angels with a higher chance of making it to adult size but either I'm a glutton for punishment or I like the challenge.
The pea size angels, I have in a tank all by themselves giving them basically the same conditions I give my small discus, temp of 82f, feed them 3-4 times daily and 25% water change daily till they get a little bigger. It's a commitment but I have the time and I enjoy it.
It is not recommended to purchase either Angels or Discus that small!

 

[Brookster123]

Mine usually has anywhere from quarter to golf ball size.. In mass.

 

[Andy Sager]

I agree. For another couple of bucks more there are bigger angels with a higher chance of making it to adult size but either I'm a glutton for punishment or I like the challenge.
The pea size angels, I have in a tank all by themselves giving them basically the same conditions I give my small discus, temp of 82f, feed them 3-4 times daily and 25% water change daily till they get a little bigger. It's a commitment but I have the time and I enjoy it.
It is not recommended to purchase either Angels or Discus that small!

That's just it, it's a standards and practice issue and should not be a money issue. On the breeder's side, it does not cost that much more to raise the fry to dime / nickle body size. These fish have a higher chance of surviving to adulthood ( under proper aquarium conditions) and can be sold for the same amount of money. My fish were not sold UNTIL they reached nickle body size and I sold them for the same prices that stores were paying for the small sized imports. On the hobbyist's side, I know how discouraging it can be when you plunk down your hard earned money on a beautiful fish only to have it die, through no fault of your own, because the odds were stacked against you from the start.

As for your case, I understand you wanting a challenge. I used to take the small marine fish we'd get in and grow them up before returning them for sale. ( I was known as the KING of minis ) Yes, I lost some along the way just because they were too small to have been collected in the first place. But with FW Angels, these are mostly tank reared fish so size to sell is by choice. That's my issue.

To be continued....

 

[Andy Sager]

Mine usually has anywhere from quarter to golf ball size.. In mass.

Glad to hear that. And do you find them to be of a higher quality as well?

 

[absolutangel04]

I generally try to only buy them when they are at least quarter to half dollar size. I have broken a couple times and bought more petite ones under certain circumstances, but never had them live long. They have all but 1 just suddenly dropped dead one day with no warning in pristine, planted, barely populated tanks. The one I still have has been alive for months and is now more like quarter size and seems to be thriving (though, of course, time will tell). I totally agree that they should be sold a bit bigger. The lfs I support with most of my purchases and my trade-ins doesn't sell them under quarter sized. But yeah, sometimes the littler guys sucker me in when they are super cheap because they present a challenge and it is always a source of pride for fish keepers to raise a fish from a wee tot and then have it thrive and reproduce.

 

[Andy Sager]

I generally try to only buy them when they are at least quarter to half dollar size. I have broken a couple times and bought more petite ones under certain circumstances, but never had them live long. They have all but 1 just suddenly dropped dead one day with no warning in pristine, planted, barely populated tanks. The one I still have has been alive for months and is now more like quarter size and seems to be thriving (though, of course, time will tell). I totally agree that they should be sold a bit bigger. The lfs I support with most of my purchases and my trade-ins doesn't sell them under quarter sized. But yeah, sometimes the littler guys sucker me in when they are super cheap because they present a challenge and it is always a source of pride for fish keepers to raise a fish from a wee tot and then have it thrive and reproduce.

Thanks for the input. Let me ask you, would you feel too unchallenged or unfulfilled if you got a fish that was the body size of a dime or nickle and raised it to maturity, instead of a pea sized fish?

 

[gilpi]

Thanks for the input. Let me ask you, would you feel too unchallenged or unfulfilled if you got a fish that was the body size of a dime or nickle and raised it to maturity, instead of a pea sized fish?

I hope you don't mind me jumping in....
Is it not easier to raise an angel from a quarter size than a pea size?
And why would some people decide to breed and raise a fry knowing the outcome?

 

[Andy Sager]

I hope you don't mind me jumping in....
Is it not easier to raise an angel from a quarter size than a pea size?
And why would some people decide to breed and raise a fry knowing the outcome?

That's the reason for this discussion. I don't think people today are as well informed about the fish they are keeping as they were, say 30-40 years ago. The ultimate outcome is not predetermined. But there are forces that are stacked against you.
To my recollection, the formula put out by the scientific community has it that in animals that have multiple offspring, only 10% of those offspring make it to adult reproductive age. There are exceptions of course ( Sea Turtles are only 1% for example.) The other 90% are lost to a variety of reasons ranging from genetics to predation to food supply to available living space, etc. When you consider that in a tank environment, we can somewhat control predation, food and space situations that wild fish can't, the genetics of the fish really come into play here. We may be able to raise, say 75% to maturity because we were able to eliminate the other factors but we can not eliminate the genetics factor. Some babies are just pre-programmed to die.
Why I am so curious about the results of these pea sized fish is that during my many years of breeding Angelfish on a commercial level, I've noticed that the majority of "genetic" deaths seemed to have happened pre- dime size ( approx size) with fewer deaths happening post-dime size. It's why (I believe) that so many people lose their baby Angels. They are just too fragile and unsettled at that size besides the genetics. Have the years of genetic altering changed that? Are the newer varieties more or less hardier? ( I know some of the newer varieties produce fry that are smaller than their wild counterparts.) Are people buying pea sized fish because of cost, availability, lack of information or lack of choice?

This is what I am trying to find out.

 

[gilpi]

That's the reason for this discussion. I don't think people today are as well informed about the fish they are keeping as they were, say 30-40 years ago. The ultimate outcome is not predetermined. But there are forces that are stacked against you.
To my recollection, the formula put out by the scientific community has it that in animals that have multiple offspring, only 10% of those offspring make it to adult reproductive age. There are exceptions of course ( Sea Turtles are only 1% for example.) The other 90% are lost to a variety of reasons ranging from genetics to predation to food supply to available living space, etc. When you consider that in a tank environment, we can somewhat control predation, food and space situations that wild fish can't, the genetics of the fish really come into play here. We may be able to raise, say 75% to maturity because we were able to eliminate the other factors but we can not eliminate the genetics factor. Some babies are just pre-programmed to die.
Why I am so curious about the results of these pea sized fish is that during my many years of breeding Angelfish on a commercial level, I've noticed that the majority of "genetic" deaths seemed to have happened pre- dime size ( approx size) with fewer deaths happening post-dime size. It's why (I believe) that so many people lose their baby Angels. They are just too fragile and unsettled at that size besides the genetics. Have the years of genetic altering changed that? Are the newer varieties more or less hardier? ( I know some of the newer varieties produce fry that are smaller than their wild counterparts.) Are people buying pea sized fish because of cost, availability, lack of information or lack of choice?

This is what I am trying to find out.

I think the pea size angels popping up lately are being sold because of the same reason you have mentioned, "sell them now while they're still alive" type of mentality and who knows, maybe there is a market for them from inexperienced newcomers and the weekend trip with the kids to get a pretty fish that costs only 4 or 5 bucks, not knowing what they're getting into.

BTW, very good topic you brought up. Now it got me curious!

 

[Andy Sager]

I think the pea size angels popping up lately are being sold because of the same reason you have mentioned, "sell them now while they're still alive" type of mentality and who knows, maybe there is a market for them from inexperienced newcomers and the weekend trip with the kids to get a pretty fish that costs only 4 or 5 bucks, not knowing what they're getting into.

BTW, very good topic you brought up. Now it got me curious!

Thanks. It's a topic dear to my heart as I have been an avid fish hobbyist for closing in on 50 years now. My LFS's owner was also my mentor who taught me all about the fish he & I kept. PLUS, every fish I bought from his store was bred by him. He had total control of the sizes of the fish he sold and he never sold Pea Sized Angels and so neither did I.
I know the aquarium trade has gone through many changes over the years I've been out of the fish business but I'm thinking it's time for another movement. Back to responsible selling practices and better quality.
What do you think?

 

[absolutangel04]

Thanks for the input. Let me ask you, would you feel too unchallenged or unfulfilled if you got a fish that was the body size of a dime or nickle and raised it to maturity, instead of a pea sized fish?

Honestly, the only pea-sized angels I have ever raised are the ones I have bred. I have never purchased a pea-sized fish. Dime is the smallest I have ever purchased. I enjoy raising them all the way from eggs the most, but that doesn't make me personally feel unchallenged by raising the dime sized ones. I still get a great deal of enjoyment in watching them grow into adulthood.

 

[Andy Sager]

Honestly, the only pea-sized angels I have ever raised are the ones I have bred. I have never purchased a pea-sized fish. Dime is the smallest I have ever purchased. I enjoy raising them all the way from eggs the most, but that doesn't make me personally feel unchallenged by raising the dime sized ones. I still get a great deal of enjoyment in watching them grow into adulthood.

I understand. The point I am trying to bring out is why stores and breeders may be selling such small fish. It doesn't ( and shouldn't in my eyes) be done if one is trying to build a lasting hobbyist. The odds are so stacked against these fish making it from such a small size (based on my experiences over the years. )
Since you said you liked the challenge of raising such small fish but haven't bought any so small, would you be willing to buy some pea sized fish and see how they do between the transfer from the store to your tank and then to maturity or even until, say, 1/2 dollar size?

 

[Andy Sager]

This is a link to a study done for determining the best foods to feed Angelfish fry for best growth rate. http://www.ucol.mx/revaia/portal/pdf/2005/sept/1.pdf
The study period was 135 days ( 3.5 months). While it's a bit more scientific than we really need to digest here, I thought it interesting to note the summation because it refers to both growth rate as well as natural deaths percentages. This is what I have been talking about. Some fish are just programed to die.
To me, this is proof positive to boycott buying undersized/ pea sized Angelfish. It's no better than putting your money in a slot machine. They are a gamble with higher stakes for losing.
FYI: I start selling my fish at the 12-16 week time frame based on size not age.

 

[gilpi]

This is a link to a study done for determining the best foods to feed Angelfish fry for best growth rate. http://www.ucol.mx/revaia/portal/pdf/2005/sept/1.pdf
The study period was 135 days ( 3.5 months). While it's a bit more scientific than we really need to digest here, I thought it interesting to note the summation because it refers to both growth rate as well as natural deaths percentages. This is what I have been talking about. Some fish are just programed to die.
To me, this is proof positive to boycott buying undersized/ pea sized Angelfish. It's no better than putting your money in a slot machine. They are a gamble with higher stakes for losing.
FYI: I start selling my fish at the 12-16 week time frame based on size not age.

The article talks a lot about DAC which I don't think is available for most?
It wasn't till I increased the angel's water temp to 82 and more frequent water changes that I started noticing a faster growth rate, I have been feeding a combination of blood worms, brine shrimp and flakes.

Which foods you feel are the best for angels?

 

[ledxkashmir]

Here in VA a few of my privately owned lfs have almost baseball sized angels. I saw some black veils that really caught my eye! They were gorgeous!

The larger chain stores out here only sell the quarter sized ones.

 

[Andy Sager]

The article talks a lot about DAC which I don't think is available for most?
It wasn't till I increased the angel's water temp to 82 and more frequent water changes that I started noticing a faster growth rate, I have been feeding a combination of blood worms, brine shrimp and flakes.

Which foods you feel are the best for angels?

Yes, however, brine shrimp eggs and decapsulated eggs are available in a variety of places. The point they made was that using Live baby brine had a better effect than even the decaped shrimp. They sited the Live shrimp having some unknown property that seemed to make the fry growth better.
Temp and water changes are key to growth when coupled with the right foods. My fry in the hatching bottles are kept at 76-78 degrees. Once they are transferred to a grow out tank, the temps are 78-80. In the first month post free swimming, I just use Newly hatched Brine Shrimp for 3 meals a day. Recently, I've been mixing some decap and live together for 1 of the feedings at about 3 weeks old. After the first month, I mix in higher quality flakes to the feeding schedule until they are old enough and large enough to just handle the flakes and still grow. By 3 months, mine are usually large enough to eat other higher protein foods such as FD Tubifex, FD Bloodworms, Frozen Daphnia and frozen adult Brine Shrimp.

Tank size will also have a bearing on growth. My grow out tanks were a minimum 48" x 18" up to using 6' x 2' vats holding over 100 gals of water. There has been some suggestion with many fish ( particularly Bettas) the larger fry emit a hormone into the water to stunt the growth of their siblings. I have not heard of this particularly with Angelfish but I too have noticed faster growth rates with more frequent water changes even when the ammonia , nitrite, nitrate readings were well within acceptable ranges. This may be the reason? The thing about higher temps is that higher temps cause the fish's metabolism to increase making them need more food to grow. More food means more poop means dirtier water which means more maintenance on your part. The 78-80 degree range seems to keep my guys growing without too much extra work for me.