EI lesson learned #1

[fish_4_all]

PO4 will be used up a lot faster than you think dosing EI.

I had 4-5ppm last Sunday. Today, after a water change, .5-1ppm and after I dosed my macros I got an immediate bloom of whiteish algae and the BBA that is still in there doubled in size in less than 3 hours.

Lesson #1: Don't not dose anything that is being used by the plants and needs to be balanced! Even if you think you have too much of a nutrient, once you meet the requirements of heavily planted, have a descent number of high uptake plants and medium to high light it will become a shortage and eventually cause algae problems.

 

[rich311k]

I agree I dose my macros and micros every otherday, do my water changes weekly and never test. That way I won't get nervous and stop. I have had great growth and only small algae problems since I started dosing EI religously and stopped trying to micro manage everything. My only problems come when I dont keep on top of my CO2.

 

[7Enigma]

I'm still hesistant to dose phosphate in my tank since it always hovers above 1ppm due to my feeding. I'm battling a bunch of staghorn and BBA but I cannot imagine its a phosphate deficiency problem....

A couple more posts like yours though and I might just change my mind...

 

[fish_4_all]

Well, the dosing schedule I have for my tanks puts keeps them at between 24-32ppm NO3 so I have to keep the PO4 between 2.5 and 3.2 just to balance the tanks. I dose 10ppm NO3 3 times a week and the PO4 is also taking into account the fact my tap water has 0.5ppm in it and allowing for 0.5ppm from the fish food. Trust me, I'm just as shocked to see that my PO4 dropped that much but with 15 stems+ of Sunset Hygro, a huge bunch of wisteria and many other plants I should have expected it because it is why I wanted them. I am not up to dosing full strength according to my own calculator but I know my tanks need it. I can only imagine what my other tank is dropping to in my other tank adding Water Sprite, Corkscrew Vals and a big cypt to the uptake.

BTW, according to those numbers and my own calculator, I have to dose at least .5ppm every other day just to balance my tanks with my tap at .5ppm and assuming .5ppm from fish food. And that oleaves me almost 1.5ppm low if you go by the 10:1 ratio and equal uptake.

Remember though, I have a massive amounts of plants and most of my biomass is very high uptake. If you assume a little more PO4 from fish food and your tap water you could easily have 2ppm in your tank if you don't have the really high uptake plants.

I think the hardest thing I have come to realize about fertilizing and keeping up is to keep the 10:1 ratio NO3O4. My PO4 always seems to be way too high or way too low, I can never find the balance point. I have come to realize that regardless of what you have in the way of nutrients, even if you only dose 5ppm NO3 and 0.5ppm PO4 you shouldn't run out causing a huge algae problem.

7Enigma, what is your NO3 reading?

Also, if anyone can give some input on this question it might help a lot:
If you dose NO3 and PO4 to a 10:1 ratio is the assumption also made that both nutirents are being used up at the same ratio? In other words, are we trying to keep the levels at 10:1 because that is the ratio most plants use them at?

 

[7Enigma]

Well, the dosing schedule I have for my tanks puts keeps them at between 24-32ppm NO3 so I have to keep the PO4 between 2.5 and 3.2 just to balance the tanks. I dose 10ppm KO3 3 times a week and the PO4 is also taking into account the fact my tap water has 0.5ppm in it and allowing for 0.5ppm from the fish food. Trust me, I'm just as shocked to see that my PO4 dropped that much but with 15 stems+ of Sunset Hygro, a huge bunch of wisteria and many other plants I should have expected it becaiuse it is why I wanted them. I am not up to dosing full strength according to my own calculator but I know my tanks need it. I can only imagine what my other tank is dropping to in my other tank adding Water Sprite, Corkscrew Vals and a big cypt to the uptake.

Remember though, I have a massive amounts of plants and most of my biomass is very high uptake. If you assume a little more PO4 from fish food and your tap water you could easily have 2ppm in your tank if you don't have the really high uptake plants.

I think the hardest thing I have come to realize about fertilizing and keeping up is to keep the 10:1 ratio NO3O4. My PO4 always seems to be way too high or way too low, I can never find the balance point. I have come to realize that regardless of what you have in the way of nutrients, even if you only dose 5ppm NO3 and 0.5ppm PO4 you shouldn't run out causeing a huge algae problem.

My tap has ~0.5ppm as well and I have a small amount of hygro, the rest is anubias, stargrass, and java fern. Now the stargrass does grow rather quickly, but I don't think its at the same rate as wisteria (which I used to have but got sick of all the work trimming)...

 

[fish_4_all]

Believe it or not, my Sunset Hygro outgrows my wisteria 5:1.

 

[Zezmo]

FWIW, some folks in the SFBAAPS are going for more like a 7:1 ratio of Nitrates to Phosphates.

In my 72g I am dosing 26.45ppm of nitrate, and 2.78ppm of phosphate (fleet). Weekly pottassium is at 32.2ppm

Here is the spreadsheet I made with my full routine (btw this sheet can be used to figure out EI for any sized tank)
http://webpages.charter.net/zezmo/EI-DoseRoutine_v4_public.xls

Edit: fixed some spreadsheed errors, added a place to factor in water nitrate and phosphate. Thanks Jdogg for your input.

 

[czcz]

Excellent spreadsheet, Zezmo.

fish_4_all,

Also, if anyone can give some input on this question it might help a lot:
If you dose NO3 and PO4 to a 10:1 ratio is the assumption also made that both nutirents are being used up at the same ratio? In other words, are we trying to keep the levels at 10:1 because that is the ratio most plants use them at?

You can find some plant tissue analysis like, this one, you could use to find N : P in plants, and after conversion to NO3 : PO4 it will be close to 10:1. However, the ratio is still mostly a guide that just goes out the window with high light. It is not a bad tool for beginning dosing, but the ratio is unimportant and (as far as I know) does not reflect uptake rate.

You're on the right track in this thread: keep up the input of both and all macros/comprehensive traces, watch the plants, and you'll see results.

Also as you can see from such analysis, Carbon is the most important dosed nutrient by far. The point of EI is to eliminate nutrients, and its easy enough to eliminate light as a variable. Then all you have to do is focus on CO2 to grow nice plants.

HTH

 

[CaptnIgnit]

Newb question, what does EI stand for?

EDIT: BTW, wicked cool spreadsheet Zezmo! Only thing missing for me is CSM+B, would be cool if you had a way of calculating mixtures and planning it out through the week. I don't have a .01 teaspoon measurement device=0)

 

[czcz]

Plantbrain/Tom Barr's The Estimative Index: http://www.barrreport.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4

Most accessible guide: http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2062

 

[Plantbrain]

PO4 will be used up a lot faster than you think dosing EI.

I had 4-5ppm last Sunday. Today, after a water change, .5-1ppm and after I dosed my macros I got an immediate bloom of whiteish algae and the BBA that is still in there doubled in size in less than 3 hours.

Lesson #1: Don't not dose anything that is being used by the plants and needs to be balanced! Even if you think you have too much of a nutrient, once you meet the requirements of heavily planted, have a descent number of high uptake plants and medium to high light it will become a shortage and eventually cause algae problems.

No, you got algae because the addition of PO4 cause more CO2 to be removed.

You already lacked CO2, this just made it worse.

You need to focus on CO2 and the plants.

Then there's not an issue with algae, which you already had............EI was not the issue, CO2 is/was.

EI just made that more obvious.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Plantbrain]

Excellent spreadsheet, Zezmo.

Yep, nice sheet with the fleet and various traces.

Also, if anyone can give some input on this question it might help a lot:
If you dose NO3 and PO4 to a 10:1 ratio is the assumption also made that both nutirents are being used up at the same ratio? In other words, are we trying to keep the levels at 10:1 because that is the ratio most plants use them at?

You can find some plant tissue analysis like, this one,
[/quote]

Except Steve Pusak has been wrong and is wrong about many things in that post.

you could use to find N : P in plants, and after conversion to NO3 : PO4 it will be close to 10:1. However, the ratio is still mostly a guide that just goes out the window with high light. It is not a bad tool for beginning dosing, but the ratio is unimportant and (as far as I know) does not reflect uptake rate.

You're on the right track in this thread: keep up the input of both and all macros/comprehensive traces, watch the plants, and you'll see results.

Also as you can see from such analysis, Carbon is the most important dosed nutrient by far. The point of EI is to eliminate nutrients, and its easy enough to eliminate light as a variable. Then all you have to do is focus on CO2 to grow nice plants.

HTH

Amen

Atomic ratios and mass ratios are another thing that confuses folks also, the Redfield ratio is an atomic ratio, not a mass ratio.

Atom ratios, so for every 16 N's, there's one P atom.

Convert that into weight/mass ratios now.........

14 grams per mole for N
30.97 grams per mole of P.

16x 14 = 224
1x 30.97 = 30.97

224/30.97 = 7.2

So 7.2 N's for each P in terms of mass.
That's for all major species fo marine algae BTW.
Oh my my my........

Ratios are important in context of natural systems where no inputs by other sources are present, we add things for argiculture/farming etc and need to maximize profit and yeidl and fert cost, so we can use ratios, soil analysis and so forth, here, the ferts are so cheap, it really does not matter.

I can have great growth at 1 ppm of and 5ppm of NO3 as well as 1 ppm PO4 and 30ppm of NO3, there's a very wide range, maintaining it at some constant worrying level, that's a waste of time.

Ifn I waste ba few ppms here or there, I'm out 0.0004cents, might take a few years to waste a dollar, I have other things that are more important to fret over.

CO2 is 40-45% of the dry weight of a plant, focus on that.
EI merely is a starting guide and frees folks from so much/any testing and focuses them on the plants and the CO2.



Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[fish_4_all]

Never mind, too confused to make sense right now.

All I know is I am adding PO4 back into my dosing and I will be dosing Calcium in whatever form I decide to get in whether it be calcium carbonate, Gypsum, or Gregs GH booster. Then my dosing should be complete and at the right levels to make sure nothing is ever bottoming out ad nothing is ever in high excess that could cause problems.

I agree my CO2 fluctuations could cause some of the problems but with it never going below 30ppm and up to 78ppm, it shouldn't be too much of a problem with it possibly being low. I wouldn't think so anyway.

 

[Plantbrain]

Sounds good, focus on CO2, the nutrients are easy, you do water changes and add them back. You jnow they are in good shape, all that is left is CO2, slowly adding more progressively and maintaining decent surface movement will let you know if you have enough and get good plant growth.

I add PO4 to very high levels, so do many and folks have been dosing PO4 liberally for about a decade now, no algae. So to blame PO4, we must see algae in these tanks and we simply just do not see this observation.

So it must be some other interaction/parameter occuring.

BBA is a classic case of low CO2.

I can induce BBA repeatedly by lowering CO2 or bobbing it up and down in a tank with the nutrients/lighting mainteance being stable.
I have never been able to induce any species of algae at high PO4 levels to date.

So........

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[fish_4_all]

Well, I guess that makes sense because the occurance happened right after a water change to CO2 levels dropped by potentially half and would have potentially taken up to a couple hours to level out again after the water change. Also, with the change in KH the levels would have dropped and the tank could take a couple days to get back up to normal.

Well I can't argue because nothing else seems to work so I guess I need to keep diligent on my CO2 bottle change overs and maintenance. I should be able to keep it at bay. Assuming I don't let a nutrient bottom out .

Almost make it sound too simple, if DIY CO2 was simple to get even levels.

 

[czcz]

Almost make it sound too simple, if DIY CO2 was simple to get even levels.

I don't think the fluctuation from water change did it. Letting DIY CO2 fluctuate past 35-40ppm is a lot better than letting it fluctuate past 30ppm: its the nominal output you care about. You know its unstable so let it be unstable higher up and it is not so important -- that extra 5-10ppm or so really does make a world of difference.

I keep 40-45ppm nominal CO2 with DIY... I started doing this after figuring I could extend EI's principles to yeast CO2, and everything's gotten easier since

Since you're already using two bottles, look at increasing the efficiency of the diffuser.

Keep it up.

 

[fish_4_all]

I easily get a nominal rate of 40ppm if not more. I will keep track of my KH and pH all week to see what it averages out to. I think it drops to about 30ppm after a water change and bottle change, possibly alot lower for about 2 hours but then goes back up to an average of 50 or so. My normal pH is 6.6 and dKH is usually 7-8.

Oh well, I am not too worried about it because the algea growth is gone and was before I woke up Monday so it was short lived. My otos probably appreciate a snack anway.

 

[7Enigma]

fish_4_all

One thing you can do to eliminate this possible cause is to change out your CO2 after lights out. I do this on my tank (since I have 1 bottle only). This way while the yeast is multiplying and acclimating to the lack of oxygen (switching over from respiration to fermentation), a drop in tank CO2 levels won't matter.

 

[Plantbrain]

I easily get a nominal rate of 40ppm if not more. I will keep track of my KH and pH all week to see what it averages out to. I think it drops to about 30ppm after a water change and bottle change, possibly alot lower for about 2 hours but then goes back up to an average of 50 or so. My normal pH is 6.6 and dKH is usually 7-8.

Oh well, I am not too worried about it because the algea growth is gone and was before I woke up Monday so it was short lived. My otos probably appreciate a snack anway.

I usee DIY CO2 for about 10 years: this device I came up with about 15 years ago really made DIY effective:

Cost about 2$ minus the Rio 180 powerhead, 8.99 on line.
Plug the powerhead into the light timer, semi automatic CO2, you do not need CO2 at night. This device allows you get the most from the DIY and the parts can be had at the LFS and home depot or OSH etc for 1.99 for the viewtainer.
A lighter and small screwdrive or any 1/8" range diameter metal rod can melt the holds into the viewtainer(4"x2"dia) and it takes about 10-15 min to make this and it looks great.

If you mess a hole up, the viewtainer is only 1.99.
So it's not a big deal.


Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[fish_4_all]

That is something I would have never thought of 7, thank you. I like the reactor Tom and I will have one in my larger tanks but for a 10 gallon it just takes up too much room. I just haven't decided if I am going to set up a reactor for my 10 gallon tanks or wait until I either get a 20 long or set up my 26 bow front. I may still put one in my 10 gallon tanks for circulation if I start seeing a problem.