Fahrenheit 9/11

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It is not about Vietnam. It is about the beliefs of those people who want to lead this country for the next 4 years. Where a person was stationed during Vietnam or what they did during the war has nothing to do with what is going on now.

We are at war. We have been at war since we were attacked on September 11th 2001. We need to choose a president who can and will respond to a threat to our country when such a threat is presented.

Kerry is a Pacifist. Thats pretty safe to say. (although his feelings on the matter may change depending on next weeks polls.) And thats fine. As long as your not the Commander and Chief. We need a president who won't hesitate to respond to a threat to our national Security.
 
That is true, but we need to be aware that the world is a much bigger place, and we cannot have a leader who acts like he has to personally police it all.
You are right, there are times when action is needed to be taken. A pacifist will look to find ways to avoid the conflict for as long as possible, a non-pacifist will shoot first and ask questions later. While there are merits to both sides the vast majority of the time a little patience and self control are needed.
We need a president who won't hesitate to respond to a threat to our national Security.
I know earlier posts have mentioned WMD etc, so i think i will pass on adding my two cents to this one!! lol
 
I believe the 'hanging chads' were mostly in south FL where the majority of people have moved here from somewhere else, maybe even from your state, frshwaterfinatc
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Whoa. Snap back- I was in no way trying to say that those of you who live in Florida are stupid. I have a lot of family in Florida. I just wanted to know what went on from YOUR perspective, since you were so much closer.
 
Let's get back to the main topic here... I'lm going to take some points from the Misleads book that I find to be most out there.

The Wimpy Coalition Partners
In Farenheit 9/11 Moore theatrically announces "The coalition of the willing...roll call: The Republic of Palau, The Republic of Costa Rica, The TRepublic of Iceland." He goes on to say, "Of course, none of these countries has an army, or for that matter... weapons." Moore concludes his list with: "Romania, the Kingdom of Morocco, The Netherlands, Afghanistan."

from Misleads: "This one is too easy. Have the millions worldwide who cheered this movie forgotten that Moore failed to mention England? Spain? Italy? Poland? Each of these countries has real troops, real training, and real weapons. "
 
Our Low Class Military
Moore wonders aloud where the military will find the new recruits. He even answers his own question by saying "in places that have been destroyed by the economy. Places where the only job available is to join the army. Places like my hometown of Flint, Michigan." Moore then focuses on a rundown portion of Flint, Michigan with a proclaimed unemployment rate of 17%.

Moore claims that out of the 535 members of the Congress, only one had a son in Iraq. Moore also does a cinematic ambush of various members of Congress by asking if they'll send their children to Iraq. Moore ends the segment with, "Of course, not a single member of Congress wanted to sacrifice their child for the war in Iraq."

From Misleads: "Despite the picture that Moore paints, the US military recruits across the entire spectrum of the American people. The military does NOT consist only of soldiers who join out of economice desperation. (As those of you with sons and daughters know!) But we need not tell you that- just look around your community at the men and women who are serving in the Armed Forces. They look a lot like America- proud, hardworking, patriotic, and primarily middle class.

Moore's claim of Flint, Michigan, as his home town is a bit of a stretch. Truth is, Moore grew up in Davison- a middle class, white suburb of Flint. Flint, on the other hand, is working class with the majority of the population being Black and Latino. Moore would like you to believe he's a blue color average Joe. The truth is he lives in a 2 million dollar apartement in Manhattan. He send his kids to private school, and stood shoulder to shoulder with the working class factory workers in Flint for exactly ONE DAY where he found it so appalling he quit.

On the issue of members of Congress and their children, Moore uses the most juvenile techniques of interviewing and editing to make his point. For example, he shows Delaware Rep. Mike Castle seeming to avoid Moore. The clip implies that Castle would not be willing to send his own children. Just one fact Moore decided not to report: Castle has no children! Another slick editing scene involves Rep . Mark Kennedy who appears confused and defensive about Moore's question, when in fact Kennedy went on to point out that he had a nephew heading to Afghanistan.

Moore also omits the fact that the son of California Republican Representative Duncan Hunter quit his job after Sept. 11 and enlisted in the Marines where he was deployed in Iraq. Or that Sgt Brooks Johnson, the son of South Dakota Democratic Senator Tim Johnson serves in the 101st Airborne Division and fought in Iraq in 2003. Or that Senator Joe Biden's son is on active duty in the Marines. In all, SEVEN members of Congress have children in the military.
 
Moore portrays two kinds of soldiers in Fahrenheit 9/11. The first are ruthless warrior soldiers who seem to enjoy the killing- they are pumped up by loud music and adrenaline. The second type of soldiers are those who are angry they're in Iraq. Moore quotes one saying, " If Donald Rumsfield were here, I'd ask him for his resignation".
Moore goes on to show footage of a funeral of US Air Force Major Gregory Stone. In a poignant moment he shows Stone's fiancee, Tammy Elsinger, kissing her hand and touching it to his coffin.

From Misleads: "The American military is the best-trained, best eqipped force ever on the planet. Our forces are also ENTIRELY made up of volunteers. While Moore tries to paint a picture of a disillusioned, disgruntled army, he does dramatic disservice to the hundreds of thousands of proud soldiers who are directly responsible for the new freedoms of the Iraqi people. He also insults the families and friends of active duty members of our Armed Forces, along with every retired service man and woman.

Major Stone was killed when a grenade was thrown into his tent by Sgt Hasan Akbar, who is on trial for murder. The family of Major Stone is livid about Moore's use of the footage in his film. They were not contacted nor permission asked in any way by Moore. The family states that Major Stone would have found the film to be 'putrid'."
 
Moore accuses President Bush of spending nearly 42% of his time on vacation during his first eight months in office.

From Misleads: "Moore verifies his statements by showing examples of Bush at Camp David. He fails to point out however that the person next to Bush in that scene is none other than British Prime Minister Tony Blair. Not exactly a 'vacation'.

Similarly, Moore fails to identify that in his calculations of vacation time, he includes weekends as "vacation" (which accounts for nearly 29% of the 42% total.) Further, nearly all of Bush's "vacations" were "working vacations"- a fact that Moore conveniently ignores. What Moore really is counting is the number of days away from the White House. Somehow, traveling to parts of the country and giving speeches are considered "vacation" to Moore. It's ludicris."
 
The August 6 Security Briefing

Moore wonders what President Bush was thinking as he sat in the classroom on Sept. 11, 2001, stating that "perhaps [President Bush] should've read the security briefing that was given to him on August 6th, 2001 which says Osama Bin Laden was planning to attack America by hijacking airplanes. "

From Misleads: "In fact, no has asserted that President Bush did not read the August 6, 2001, memo. Furthermore, according to the 9/11 Commission, the content of the memo was extremely vague and contained no actionable intelligence data. This matters not to Moore. It's more important to blame Bush for 9/11, at least indirectly. You can read for yourself the memo (President Daily Briefing) on 261 of the 9/11 Commission report. We have also posted the text of the briefing on our website. Go to http://grassfire.org/moremisleads.asp. "
 
Moore develops the idea on an inappropriately close relationship between the Bush family and Saudi Arabia's ambassador, Prince bandar.

From Misleads: "Moore fails to point out that Bandar has been a Washington power broker for decades and in fact was a close ally to the Clinton Administration. Clinton once received $750,000 for giving a speech in Saudi Arabia and the Saudis have generously donated far in excess of $1 million to the Clinton library."
 
Here's one I hear a LOT of- Bush is only interested in the oil in the Middle East...

Because of the Bush family background in oil and the Saudi's involvement in oil, Moore construes a long-standing, illicit, close relationship between the Bush family and the Saudis. Two companies in particular are used by Moore to paint the evil oil connection: Harken Energy and The Carlyle Group.
Moore states that when George W. was involved with Harken Energy he "beat the rap" after being investigated by the SEC. Specifically, Moore states that Bush received a memo while a director at Harken that warned against selling stock. One week later Bush sold nearly $150,000 worth of stock.
Moore would have you believe that the Carlyle Group, a huge investment firm, has close ties to the Saudis and close ties to the Bush family. Moore claims the Saudis have given the Bush family more than $1.4 BILLION. Moreover, Moore alleges that it was through a series of questionable transactions and influences that the Carlyle Group made a considerable amount of money- in one instance $237 million in one day. Furthermore, Moore alleges that the Bin Ladens were heavily invested in the Carlyle Group.

From Misleads: "Moore fails to explain that the SEC concluded that there was no illicit trading at Harken on the part of Bush. Those same attorneys who issued the "no sell" warning subsequently OK'd Bush to make the sale of his stock.

Moore also fails to mention the bi-partisan roster of partners of the Carlyle Group, including Bill Clinton's former SEC chairman, Arthur Levit, and billionaire financier, George Soros, who has single-handedly pledged $15 million to defeat George Bush in 2004. Senior advisors aslo include Thomas "Mack" McLarty, Bill Clinton's former White House Chief of Staff. Moore didn't mention that the anti-Bush billionaire George Soros has invested in the Carlyle group because it would surely punch holes in Moore's simplistic coonect-the-dots theory.

Moore again plays fast and loose with timelines and facts to derive the $1.4 billion given to the Bush family by the Saudis. Nearly 90% of that figure, $1.18 billion, comes from one source: contracts in the early to mid- 1990's that the Saudi Arabian government awarded to a US defense contractor, BDM, for training the country's military and National Guard.

What's the signifigance of BDM? The firm at the time was owned by the Carlyle Group whose advisory board included the president's father, George H.W. Bush. The problem with Moore's implication is that former President Bush didn't join the Carlyle advisory board until April 1998- five months AFTER Carlyle had already sold BDM to another defense firm.

Let's address the $237 million profit in one day. In October 2001, the Carlyle Group took public a complany called United Defense and made $237 million the day the company went public.

Carlyle still owned 47% of the shares a year later when the Bush Administration under Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld cancelled of of the United Defense's larger projects- the Crusade missile program worth $11 billion.

Does that sound like a money motivated decision in favor of the Bush family and Carlyle? Once again, the facts don't seem to matter to Moore."
 
I have plenty of knowledge about the presidency, and if anything is alarming it's the fact that these "claims" have credibility behind them and the "liberal media" doesn't do there job and expose what goes in with in our government, with our tax money and to our citizens!
'

Does anyone see any credibility NOW? Need I continue?
 
What proves your information is any more truthful? Its all propaganda in the end. You're not going to convince me that one person is wrong by quoting yet another. Both MM and this site are after the agenda of their own side. I'd go into detail about the things that Moore said that are DEFINATELY true, but I'll just get bashed as an anti-American liberal.

Because we all know, America isn't about the freedom to express your opinion, or practice the religion of your choice, or believe what you choose to believe. Those who do not support the current president, or god forbid, even dislike him, or his actions, are anti-Americans bent on our destruction. [/sarcasm]

I'm tired of the general right-wing response being that if you're against them (Ie, Bush, the War in Iraq, current foreign policy), you're against America.
 
So now that you've seen some of the issues Michael Moore twisted that happened more recently, let's look back at what he has to say about President Bush's election back in 2000.

"Fox News Election 2000 Hocus-Pocus"
Less than 2 minutes into the movie Moore unabashedly wanders off the journalistic reservation with bizarre theories about Election 2000. Moore states with an ominous tone: "It was Election Night 2000 and everything was going as planned."

Over the next three minutes Moore strings together a half-dozen unrelated facts, reconstructs timelines, ignores fundamental facts, sprinkles in a blatant misstatement and, viola! We have the ingredients for an Election Night conspiracy!
Moore also strings together quick clips by Tom Brokaw (NBC News), Dan Rather (CBS News), Peter Jennings (ABC News), and CNN all declaring Al Gore the winner. He continues with, "Then, something called the Fox News Channel came out in favor of the other guy. All of the sudden the other networks said, 'Hey, if Fox said it, it must be true!'

Next we see Tom Brokaw saying, 'All of us networks made a mistake a projected Florida in the Al Gore column. It was our mistake.' Moore created the impression that the networks recanted as soon as they heard Fox call Florida for Bush."

Misleads: "Let's stop right there. FRIST, it was CBS at 10:00pm that night that first withdrew from the assertion that Al Gore would win Florida. In fact, the networks that called Florida for Gore did so early- even before the polls closed in the panhandle. Moore fails to tell you that even Fox called FL for Gore before the polls closed.

At 10:00 pm that night it was CBS (Not Fox) that retracted its call for Gore to win. In fact Fox did not give the win to Bush until 2:00 am. Within 20 minutes, all major networks had also given Bush the victory. Why the close timing? Because the major networks all used the same source for their data- "Voter News Service"- not because of some hocus-pocus by Fox news."

That's Michael Moore's technique. String together snippets of truth, change the timing sequence, ignore any facts that don't support your agenda, add a dose of ominous music and a commentary to go with it.

Next, "The Vote-Countin' Woman"

Fox News is just the beginning of the supposed Election Night shenanigans. Moore implies many more reasons why Florida and the election went wrongly to Bush. (Moore's misleads are in uppercase, followed by the facts):

MAKE SURE THE CHAIRMAN OF YOUR CAMPAIGN IS ALSO THE VOTE COUNTIN' WOMAN...

Katherine Harris was the Secretary of State in FL. Her job was to certify the vote counts. At no time did Katherine Harris count the votes. Nor was she the Bush Campaign Chairman- she was the Bush Campaign Co-Chair for FL.

AND THAT HER STATE HAS HIRED A COMPANY THAT IS GOING TO KNOCK VOTERS OFF THE ROLLS WHO ARE NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR YOU. YOU CAN USUALLY TELL THEM BY THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN.

Moore refers to a company called "Data Base Technologies" that was hired to remove conviced felons from voter rolls. Their process has serious flaws. As a result, at least 20 counties ignored their purged lists and allowed thousands of convicted felons to vote who shouldn't have been able to. Statistically, the large majority of felons voted Democrat, so in fact, this error helped Gore- not Bush.
Furthermore, it is a blatant lie to imply that race was involved in the process!

MOORE IMPLIES THAT NUMEROUS STUDIES SHOWED RECOUNTS WOULD HAVE GIVEN THE ELECTION TO GORE. HE SHOWS A CNN INTERVIEW WITH JEFFREY TOOBIN WHO STATES THAT GORE WOULD WIN IN ANY SCENERIO.

In fact, a six-month study by the Washington Post, CNN, and the New York Times (hardly conservative news oragnizations) determined that in all scenerios pursued by Al Gore, Bush would've won had the Supreme Court not stepped in.

That President Bush somehow "stole" the election is practically an Article of Faith for liberals in the 21st Century. Moore begins here becasue every other supposedly deceptive deed by President Bush has it's roots in some "Election Night slight-of-hand". But Moore fails to make a case that stands up to the FACTS. It just isn't true. In fact, it could be argued that Al Gore made ever effort to turn the election. Gore only gave up the recount when it was clear he wasn't going to win. It's a bitter pill that liberals simply refuse to swallow: they will not admit that Bush won the 2000 Election, and this fuels everything they are doing in this election cycle."

INAUGURATION DAY HATRED

Moore states Inauguration Day brought an unprecedented protest of the new President- his limo was pelted with eggs. It may seem like a minor point to place in a documentary, but it serves to further confirm that President Bush "stole the Election" and people knew it.

Misleads: "A single errant protester threw one egg at the limo. CNN reported that President Nixon had faced similar protests in both '69 and '73. Moore points out the number of protesters, but fails to mention they were confined to a single block and were vastly outnumbered by supporters."

BUSH'S FAILED LEGISLATIVE AGENDA

Moore states, "For the next eight monts, it didn't get any better for George W. Bush. He couldn't get his judges appointed, he had trouble getting his legislation passed, and he lost Republican control of the Senate." Again, all this is to confirm that Bush is what some liberals call the "Commander in Thief" for stealing the election.

Misleads: "President Bush's agenda was not stymied. In the first 8 months, four judges were confirmed according to the Dept of Justice. More importantly, during his first 8 months, Bush got major legislation passed including two of the most important items of his Administration: one of the largest tax cuts in history and the "No Child Left Behind" legislation. "
 
Ferret:

What proves your information is any more truthful?

What proves it? Have you really read what I've posted? If you cannot recognize the Commission Report's text on page 261 regarding Moore's statement "says that Osama Bin Laden was planning to attack America by hijacking airplanes" when in fact the document itself does NOT say that, I don't know what to tell you.

More clearly- Michael Moore says the document says one thing. But if you read the document he's talking about yourself, it says something totally different.

Since we know the document is real, and we know it does not say what Moore says it does, then Moore is lying.

Also, if you were paying attention to the times and sequences in which many of these instances occurred you know that they don't make sense- they are not chronological. Therefore you know truth is being twisted by this man.

Open your eyes, and if you're offended- then go away.
 
Ferret:
I'd go into detail about the things that Moore said that are DEFINATELY true, but I'll just get bashed as an anti-American liberal.

No, the reason you won't is because what he has said is NOT true.


I hear this so often. "I can't tell you why it's true because you'll cal me a liberal. You'll say I'm anti- American." Stand up for yourself. Let's hear what's true, if you believe so strongly that it is.
 
ferret said:
I'd go into detail about the things that Moore said that are DEFINATELY true, but I'll just get bashed as an anti-American liberal.
quote]
Using your logic, how do we know these "details" you would post are true? What would be the source of information? The media? Firsthand knowledge? 911 commission? Mr Moore's imagination?
Its not about whether there were some truths in this film, it is how he distorts the information and molds it into his own reality (or fantasyland).
Actually I don't agree with everthing (most but not all) the the president is doing, in fact I think he can do more to fight terrorism, starting by closing our borders. But at least he is taking the fight to our enemy, our enemy now know its in a fight, not just the empty threats a previous administration issued when we were attacked. At least we now have a man in office who backs up his words with actions. A terrorist's worst nightmare.
 
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