first time angle fish keeper

[fireman731]

So I have a 55 gal tank that I am going to dirt and plant. I have never kept angels before, and after hours of research I wanted to ask for some advice. As far as I can tell, angels are hard to sex, you essentially have to wait until they pair off to mate to know who is who. At that time, they also become more aggressive than usual and you should move the pair from the others. does this behavior continue for the life of the fish, they bond for life? So, if I wanted to keep a PAIR, I would buy several, wait tell the pair, then rehome the rest? But, I have also seen tanks with several adult angels, are they usually all the same sex? Or do people just buy several angels, wait tell 2 pair, then get rid of the pair and keep the rest?

Also, I have hard tap water with a PH of just over 8. I read that they are cichlids and they like hard water. As long as I don't buy wild ones, and I drip acclimate them to my water and temp (78-80?) I should be fine?

As far as tank mates in my 55 I wanted to do some thing as follows:
A pair of angels
cardinal tetras
rose lined sharks
Siamese algae eaters
cory cats
pleco

does anyone see any problems with the compatibility?

 

[Andy Sager]

Angels don't necessarily "like" hard water as much as they can tolerate hard water. You are correct that wild ones will not do well in your water unless you soften it and lower the PH. As for the other fish you listed, compatebility is okay ( sans one fish) but this may be your problem. You will want to check with the store you are buying these from to ensure that they keep them in the water parameters you are using. Most Cardinals are wild fish so I would really reconsider that choice unless you can be assured you are getting tank raised that are in your similar water. Same with the corys and plecos. The biggest issue will be the roselines. They prefer fast water while the Angels prefer slow water. Not a good mix in a smaller aquarium with only one water speed.
But as I said, it will all come down to what the water is at the place you are buying them from.

Hope this helps

 

[fireman731]

Well I was thinking about doing a sand substrate. Pool filter sand seems to be uniform and won't blow around as much. I was going to add a power head to one side opposite the intake of a canister, mostly to try and blow debris off the top of the sand to the intake.


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[aqua_holic]

Yeah I would skip on the roselines - too big. There are other barbs that are a better fit. How about gold barbs?

I'm a big fan of pool filter sand. Your plan sounds good.

 

[fireman731]

How deep of a sand bed would you do with PFS? Also do you have any Rec on what type? Quickecrete? Aqua quarts?


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[fireman731]

Anyways haha getting away from the main topic. How do you keep more than a pair of angelfish?


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[Andy Sager]

What I always recommend is to put a number Angels together to grow up and when they start to pair off, remove the pair and let the rest stay in the main tank. Thankfully, not all will necessarily pair off so it is possible to have a tank full of Angels with no problems. The other way is to keep same gender tanks. This usually requires buying larger fish as there are more gender related traits on larger fish than smaller ones.

Hope this helps

 

[fireman731]

Thanks yah that's the answer I was looking for


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[jennandjuicetm]

What I always recommend is to put a number Angels together to grow up and when they start to pair off, remove the pair and let the rest stay in the main tank. Thankfully, not all will necessarily pair off so it is possible to have a tank full of Angels with no problems. The other way is to keep same gender tanks. This usually requires buying larger fish as there are more gender related traits on larger fish than smaller ones.

Hope this helps

When you say you move the Angels who have paired off, do you only move them until they spawn or do they need to be removed forever?

 

[Andy Sager]

When you say you move the Angels who have paired off, do you only move them until they spawn or do they need to be removed forever?

Unless you split up the pair, you will need to remove them forever as they will always "act up" when ready to spawn again. Despite what many want, a breeding pair of Angels are not a good fish for a community tank.

Hope this helps

 

[aqua_holic]

The tank just needs to be sufficient in size to allow for the other fish to avoid them. I've seen a lot of nice community tanks with a breeding pair of angels in them. It helps to encourage them to spawn in a corner of the tank rather than have them spawn in the middle of the tank. Too, it'll take them a few times to figure out how to "do it".

 

[Andy Sager]

The tank just needs to be sufficient in size to allow for the other fish to avoid them. I've seen a lot of nice community tanks with a breeding pair of angels in them. It helps to encourage them to spawn in a corner of the tank rather than have them spawn in the middle of the tank. Too, it'll take them a few times to figure out how to "do it".

I'm not quite sure why you would encourage having such stress in a tank by having a breeding pair of Angels in it? Is the potential loss of fish really that unimportant? As with any cichlid, these fish fight off other fish from their areas and mates. Why encourage that? When fish are under stress, they get sick. Why encourage that either?
As for encouraging the fish to spawn in a particular area, that's not really reality. SOMETIMES you can make that happen. Look how many people have written that they put slate and pots and all kinds of "spawn friendly" areas in their tanks but the fish spawns on the heater that's right next to the HOB filter.
I've seen Angels take over half of a 5' long 100 gal tank. As I said in a previous post, the tank needs to be long enough for there not to be turmoil but most of us don't have tanks that long. Absolutely, a community tank looks really sharp with a school of Angels. I just don't think a breeding pair is such a wise choice for that situation.

Just my 2 cents

 

[fireman731]

So, buy Angels, when a pair mates move them to my 29 and keep the rest in the 55 community as long as they don't pair off too. Got it. That's pretty much what I was looking for.


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[aqua_holic]

I'm not quite sure why you would encourage having such stress in a tank by having a breeding pair of Angels in it? Is the potential loss of fish really that unimportant? As with any cichlid, these fish fight off other fish from their areas and mates. Why encourage that? When fish are under stress, they get sick. Why encourage that either?

As for encouraging the fish to spawn in a particular area, that's not really reality. SOMETIMES you can make that happen. Look how many people have written that they put slate and pots and all kinds of "spawn friendly" areas in their tanks but the fish spawns on the heater that's right next to the HOB filter.

I've seen Angels take over half of a 5' long 100 gal tank. As I said in a previous post, the tank needs to be long enough for there not to be turmoil but most of us don't have tanks that long. Absolutely, a community tank looks really sharp with a school of Angels. I just don't think a breeding pair is such a wise choice for that situation.



Just my 2 cents

People are in this hobby for different reasons and they all enjoy different aspects of keeping fish. Some people obsess over their fish having perfect fins while other people don't. Only in our aquariums can we keep such perfect fish.

Fish are not all the same. What's stressful to some is a walk in the park to others; it's important to stock ANY tank with fish that are of a compatible temperament, and there are plenty that can handle such a tank.

Yes you can get them to spawn in particular places by either moving the things they are spawning on to where you want them to be, or by removing the eggs/fry from places you don't want them to be. I did the latter with my cichlids. As with any training, don't expect immediate results, but over time they learn. Animals are quite adept at figuring out what works and what doesn't. Humans are the only ones that continue to do something that's not been working, expecting different outcomes

 

[Andy Sager]

People are in this hobby for different reasons and they all enjoy different aspects of keeping fish. Some people obsess over their fish having perfect fins while other people don't. Only in our aquariums can we keep such perfect fish.

Fish are not all the same. What's stressful to some is a walk in the park to others; it's important to stock ANY tank with fish that are of a compatible temperament, and there are plenty that can handle such a tank.

Yes you can get them to spawn in particular places by either moving the things they are spawning on to where you want them to be, or by removing the eggs/fry from places you don't want them to be. I did the latter with my cichlids. As with any training, don't expect immediate results, but over time they learn. Animals are quite adept at figuring out what works and what doesn't. Humans are the only ones that continue to do something that's not been working, expecting different outcomes

With all due respect, you are trying to teach me something about a fish I have worked with, on many levels, for over 45 years and know pretty well.

What you propose is something that happens SOMETIMES opposed to always. You can not train these fish to spawn in a certain place IF they don't want to spawn there. Case in point: take away any and all spawning areas and the fish will spawn on the glass sides of a tank. Put in the wrong spawning surface and the fish will ignore it and spawn where they want. I currently have a pair of Angels that were attached to a certain piece of red shale for spawning. The piece did not fit in my available hatching jars at the time so I repositioned the shale flat on the bottom of the tank as a support piece for an upright piece of shale that was in the most recommended position for spawning. Not only did the pair ignore that shale, as well as another slate on the other side of the tank, but spawned on their piece of shale. You can see a picture of the spawn in the "Wigglers at last!!!!" thread. I posted it with the caption " What's wrong with this picture?"

As for what's stressful for some fish opposed to others, in the 200+ pairs of Angelfish I have personally bred, I have never seen one pair that did not defend their mates or their spawning site. Some of my pairs killed or maimed their tank mates that came too close. It is the nature of THIS fish in particular to protect a spawning area by keeping any and all fish away by any means. How can you think this is not a stressful situation to the other fish? Yes, in a very long tank where the other fish have no need to approach the pair or the pair's territory it could work. But as I said earlier, most people don;t have this type setup which means that their other fish will be chased, harassed and /or worse when the pair decides to spawn. Why encourage this behavior?

I agree that people keep fish for many different reasons and beauty is in the eyes of the beholder but we are not talking about these things. We are discussing mating habits of a particular cichlid , that breeds differently, in regards to position, than most cichlids. Bottom spawning cichlids can be trained because it is in their nature to choose the best spot or surface on the bottom of a tank , wherever that may be, for spawning. Angels don't work that way.

Bottom line, I offer advice, based on a more than average experience with many fish species, to create harmonious tanks for aquarists. I don't encourage mixtures or behaviors that have an extremely low percentage of success. Can these low percentage things be done? Sure. Just as Lions have adopted Gazelles and cats have befriended birds and big dogs have adopted little kittens. But, would I put my gazelle in a lion's cage on purpose? NOT ON YOUR LIFE. Just like I don;t suggest trying to keep breeding pairs of Angels in a community tank. It has a low percentage of complete success for all involved.

Hope this helps

 

[Andy Sager]

So, buy Angels, when a pair mates move them to my 29 and keep the rest in the 55 community as long as they don't pair off too. Got it. That's pretty much what I was looking for.


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That would be my plan. Another option when you have multiple pairs is to sell off the pairs if you don;t want to breed them. You can trade for other fish, supplies or whatever. FYI: Mated pairs are worth more $$$ than just 2 adult fish.

Keep us posted

 

[aqua_holic]

Lions and gazelles??

I'm glad that you're as passionate as you are even after 40 years. I can only hope for the same.

 

[Andy Sager]

Lions and gazelles??

I'm glad that you're as passionate as you are even after 40 years. I can only hope for the same.

Animal Planet "Unlikely animal friends" is the name of the program I believe. Lioness adopted a baby Thompson's Gazelle and cared for it until it eventually starved because the lioness had no milk. Yes it happens, so does winning the jackpot in the lottery. But do you want to put all your money on it?

I don't know if it's passion or disturbed at all the misinformation that has become the norm in today's tropical fish hobby. Just trying to fix what I can. Tropical fish gave me a nice living and life and I would hate to see it go away or go the way of the dinosaur. There are good mixes and bad mixes when it comes to fish. No need to play the odds when they are stacked against you.

 

[aqua_holic]

Yes I've seen all the shows. I just didn't see how it was relevant is all. The blind horse and the goat were my favorite pair.

 

[sinibotia]

Rose line sharks are an endangered species, please don't get them unless you can be sure they are captive bred!