Fish that should come with WARNING stickers

[Burks]

Wait, how big do BGKs get?

Most sites say "about 20 inches" while others say "21+ inches". They do get large and have a big appetite. It's not a fish a beginner should get really.

Quite a few forum members have these fish. They can provide some better answers than I can.

Coldmachine, I couldn't agree more.

 

[hsherman1986]

yea i have heard that BGKS do get quite large. I have also heard that they mainly only eat frozen or live bloodworms (by the cube)

Defintly not beginner fish...

 

[Reefmonkey]

My point about buying responsibly (i.e. the onus being on the customer) is in response to the argument "well, no-one told me otherwise".

The problem is with new fishkeepers, they don't know what questions to ask, or even to ask questions at all. Like it or not, the vast majority of people who started in the hobby started out with a 10 gallon setup with the little plastic shipwreck in the bottom. They somehow aren't deterred by the uneven success of keeping swordtails alive without knowing to do regular PWC. Then they see some cute or interesting and buy it then and there, heck, it looked small enough to fit in their tank at the store - "the store had 20 of them in a 20 gallon aquarium - 1 should fit in my 10 gallon tank".

My parents bought me my first tank like that in 4th grade. I was in junior high when I started doing water changes, looking up a fish's specific tank size and water chemistry requirements before I bought it. You can say I should have researched before I got my first aquarium, but I was a kid asking for a tank for my birthday, and my parents didn't know any better - heck, they were brought up in an era when taking your pets to the vet was a new practice.

How long had you been keeping fish before you learned to ask "what pH does this fish require?" How many fish that you had never heard of did you impulse buy at the LFS, and then watch die, or get big and devour their tankmates, before you learned to research better? A responsible LFS can speed up that learning curve for new fishkeepers. The good LFS will ask anyone "how big of a tank do you have?" or "what other fish do you have?" or say "this fish requires brackish water" or "this fish eats only live food." It is their responsibility to do so. The fish are their property, their livestock, their responsibility, both legally and morally, until the sale is complete. For an LFS to sell a challenging fish to someone without at least asking some cursory questions about their experience is a breach of that responsibility.

 

[hsherman1986]

well said reefmonkey.

Personally, the only fish that I ever bought without researching was my clown loaches. I fell in love with them though, and am now prepared to purchase them a larger tank as soon as they get to the size that they need it (they are all still under 4" long).

Oh wait, I did try to put 5 danios in a fishbowl with a betta.....I still have that betta though, and it has been a year! I really didn't know any better then, got the danios from petsmart because they were $.99 each and there was a betta in the tank with them, so I knew they would get along. They only stayed in the bowl for about 2 weeks before I got my first tank (55g), and they promptly got moved into it (yes, I also did a fishy cycle ) I knew about the cycle, just didn't know about the fishless cycle. The danios just died about 2-3 months ago, an internal parasite wiped them out....

I do fully agree that though it is up to the customer to research the fish before they buy, just because of the fact that most lfs never ask questions (i have seen this problem more at places like petsmart and petco than the smaller stores), the lfs SHOULD ask questions to make sure that their fish are going to good homes. They do the same thing with dogs and cats...

One of my smaller lfs i went to over christmas actually did ask questions about my choices. I was purchasing 3 kuhli loaches, 4 red cherry shrimp, 10 ghost shrimp, and 3 large (4-5") firemouth cichlids (cichlids were going into my 55, everything else was for my 20g's), and before he would even attempt to net ANYTHING, he made sure that the shrimp and the cichlids were not going into the same tank (yes, he was even concerned about the ghost shrimp), which is more than I can say for any other lfs I have ever been to so far.

 

[coldmachineUK]

How long had you been keeping fish before you learned to ask "what pH does this fish require?" How many fish that you had never heard of did you impulse buy at the LFS, and then watch die, or get big and devour their tankmates, before you learned to research better?

First fish I ever had were in a 2' tank; a group of 8 black mollies and one peppered cory. I was bought them for my 10th birthday, and all my equipment was second hand. Did I know anything about fish? No. So what did I do? I went out to my local public library and read some books about the whole thing. How much did that cost me to do? Nothing.
But then maybe that's being sensible and responsible.

I'm sorry, but it's just far too easy for people to find out information - and more importantly find it out quickly at that - for the argument to wash.

Where do LFS fit in? As I've already said: if someone asks a question, then by all means it should be answered correctly and customers should not be lied to or mislead. Stock should be labelled correctly and ideally all of this stock - livestock to equipment - should only be kept in the store if one of the employees at least knows something about it.
I don't blame a clothes store for selling me a jumper that was too small or too big because I didn't go measure my size first, I don't blame my doctor for prescribing me drugs I have allergies to because I forgot to tell him what they were, and I don't blame my LFS for selling me a fish that grows too big for my tank because I forgot to ask them its maximum adult size.

What do I do? Take responsibility for my own actions, and do something about it. Take the fish back (most stores would accept it) and learn from the mistake.

It actually concerns me that it's okay for someone to not only buy a fish they know nothing about, but then to keep it for however long until it does start growing too large without actually having read anything about it during that time, before finally realising they've a problem on their hands. That only further demonstrates the irresponsibility of the owner.

 

[cinnastix911]

Someone mentioned paroon shark early. I have personal experience. Fish store said he wouldn't get big... just big enough to fit my fish tank. Ha. Still rather small but he is still growing. After doing research.. after he ate a few gouramis, I discovered the truth, went to sell it back to the lfs and they refused. I was used to my lfs who always warn me about fish and tell me which ones to buy but they retired and I was forced to go to the one that sold the paroon (they also have a wide variety of giant fish that get even bigger. They usually keep them all in 1-2 tanks. One fish is so big it can't even swim but just kind of sits in one position constantly.)

Any fish with "shark" or "catfish" or "cichlid" in the name, do research first.

 

[Toirtis]

Someone mentioned paroon shark early. I have personal experience. Fish store said he wouldn't get big... just big enough to fit my fish tank.

That is correct....assuming that your fish tank is 8½' long and the fish doesn't need to move at all...

 

[coldmachineUK]

I discovered the truth, went to sell it back to the lfs and they refused. I was used to my lfs who always warn me about fish and tell me which ones to buy but they retired and I was forced to go to the one that sold the paroon

Did they offer to take it back without paying you for it? Sometimes LFS will say 'ok, we'll take it back but we're not giving you a refund'. That might be better in the long run than trying to take care of it yourself if you aren't able to give it the tank size you need.
If they refused to take it back even then, you've every right to report them to Trading Standards (or whatever the US version of that is) for having mis-sold you the fish in the first place by giving out false information and misleading care guidelines. I'd definitely pursue this if I were you!

 

[hc8719]

What's so bad about BGKs? Besides their size and electrical brain-waves or what have you. Wait, how big do BGKs get?

The largest "aquaria" BGK i've heard of is Hara's 6 year old one, 12" though in the wild, they are recorded to be 2 feet long. They "electrical brain waves" are not harmful to any other fish (other electric fish are exceptions) or humans. They simply use the electricty to "see" due to their poor eye vision.

They are picky eatters, only eatting frozen foods, I only feed mine bloodworms, even if they were to accept flakes, normal foods do not have enough protein.

As far as LFS advice, most advice is wrong, with the exception of when I asked an employee how big a Lemon Butterfly gets, she looked it up telling me it would need a 75 gallon tank. I had no intention of buying the fish, but I was glad she actually seemed concerned, especially knowing I only had a 20 gallon (SW)

 

[Toirtis]

What's so bad about BGKs? Besides their size and electrical brain-waves or what have you. Wait, how big do BGKs get?

The largest "aquaria" BGK i've heard of is Hara's 6 year old one, 12" though in the wild, they are recorded to be 2 feet long.

We have a half-dozen 14"-15" BGKs down at my shop that were only 12" when we got them in...and I have a friend with an 18" BGK that she grew from 4", so I suspect that 20"-22" in an aquarium is not unattainable.

 

[travis74]

On the positive side, I believe that forums like AA serve to stem the tide more now than in the past when we really only had the LFS. The more educated the average hobbiest is the more pressure it puts on the LFS. BY THE WAY just because a fish will enetually outgrow your setup does that mean that you shouldn't have it in your setup period?? I would def disagree with that... know your fish, stock appropriately and enjoy...

 

[Reefmonkey]

How long had you been keeping fish before you learned to ask "what pH does this fish require?" How many fish that you had never heard of did you impulse buy at the LFS, and then watch die, or get big and devour their tankmates, before you learned to research better?

First fish I ever had were in a 2' tank; a group of 8 black mollies and one peppered cory. I was bought them for my 10th birthday, and all my equipment was second hand. Did I know anything about fish? No. So what did I do? I went out to my local public library and read some books about the whole thing. How much did that cost me to do? Nothing.
But then maybe that's being sensible and responsible.

I'm sorry, but it's just far too easy for people to find out information - and more importantly find it out quickly at that - for the argument to wash.

Where do LFS fit in? As I've already said: if someone asks a question, then by all means it should be answered correctly and customers should not be lied to or mislead. Stock should be labelled correctly and ideally all of this stock - livestock to equipment - should only be kept in the store if one of the employees at least knows something about it.
I don't blame a clothes store for selling me a jumper that was too small or too big because I didn't go measure my size first, I don't blame my doctor for prescribing me drugs I have allergies to because I forgot to tell him what they were, and I don't blame my LFS for selling me a fish that grows too big for my tank because I forgot to ask them its maximum adult size.

What do I do? Take responsibility for my own actions, and do something about it. Take the fish back (most stores would accept it) and learn from the mistake.

It actually concerns me that it's okay for someone to not only buy a fish they know nothing about, but then to keep it for however long until it does start growing too large without actually having read anything about it during that time, before finally realising they've a problem on their hands. That only further demonstrates the irresponsibility of the owner.

That's great that you did all that at 10, but facts are most new aquarists don't. Saying over and over that they should won't make them do it, it won't save the lives of the fish they kill. And there is the difference between a salesperson's responsibility when you buy a jumper that is too small to you versus a fish you don't have the tank and skills to care for: an ill-fitting jumper doesn't die.

In college I had a part-time job with the SPCA. We had guidelines before we would allow someone to adopt a pet. You had to fill out a form describing your household, your lifestyle, how many hours you worked, how many children you had and what ages, how many other pets you had. Then, once a prospective pet adopter had filled that out and picked out a pet, we had a 48 hour waiting period before they could bring it home. We stopped allowing adoptions 1 week before Christmas. We would not adopt out any black cats during the entire month of October. It is my personal belief that the SPCA is the only responsible place to get a dog or a cat.

I am not advocating that to be responsible, an LFS should be anywhere near that tough, after all, these are fish, not cats and dogs, and not the same time committment as mammals, but just as you say that it cost you nothing to go to the library to read up on fish, it costs nothing for an LFS employee to ask a few questions, point out a few special needs a fish might have. Most fish stores I go to already do this. No one here is talking about passing a new law, just suggesting a moral responsibility. So I'm having a hard time understanding why you would be so opposed to this.


I guess I come from a different world from you on this one. Besides keeping fish, I have a long background of sailing, and am an avid seakayaker. The tradition of the sea dictates that we help out anyone else on the water. I just posted on a kayaking board about paddling back in this saturday just to be on the safe side of some bad weather I saw rolling in. I passed a guy paddling out, ill-equipped and obviously new to the sport. Wasn't wearing a life jacket. I pointed out the bad weather and suggested he stay close to shore. Then I stood on my deck with binoculars watching him on the bay while I drank a beer so I could call the coast guard if he got into trouble. No one suggested I had gone too far, one or two people suggested I had not done enough. Now I didn't sell that guy his kayak, I am not an instructor, nor a coast guard auxillary volunteer, so I had no legal responsibility to babysit that guy, but I did keep an eye out for him, so I don't see why a LFS employee can't spend 30 seconds to ask a couple of questions to make sure the fish he is about to sell someone would be properly cared for.

 

[coldmachineUK]

So I'm having a hard time understanding why you would be so opposed to this....

I guess I come from a different world from you on this one

Really there's no need to make it personal I wasn't suggesting that your p.o.v was 'wrong' or even that it's out of line with my own: I agree with you that LFS are indeed part responsible. As a human being I would also have offered the same advice as you to that novice sailor had I been in your shoes; please don't suggest that my p.o.v on this issue (which is totally unrelated to your story) makes me live 'in a different world' than you...lol. I really don't

My point has been that it's too easy for and too often the case that the customer shirks responsibility for keeping an animal (such as a fish) by blaming the LFS. I see it all the time. "Well they never said this" and "I thought this was cute, anyone know anything about it?" and so on. I don't mean in relation to the forum; that's what we're all here to do - help people new to the hobby and enable them to get the most out of keeping their new pet fish. What I am saying, is that those who try to shrug off any and all responsibility for keeping pet fish are mistaken in believing they're not at fault in any way. That's my line: I am not saying LFS have no hand in things (they mislead people, and I'll be the first to acknowledge that), I'm saying that really people need to take a little more responsibility for their own actions instead of blaming everyone else around them. It's endemic to the world in general, not just fishkeeping

I also never suggested anything about 'laws' or 'bans' (if you read my early posts I mention that 'bans' are quite unnecessary!), please don't put words in my mouth
The OATA poster I gave a link to pretty much sums things up for me. People should just think a little bit more. In general, I guess

 

[Reefmonkey]

Coldmachineuk, you misunderstand, I wasn't implying that you were saying anything about bans or any kind of regulatory requirement, just that since such legal issues weren't being discussed, I had trouble understanding why someone whould oppose the idea of LFS feeling a nonlegal, moral responsibility to ask questions of prospective buyers. Maybe it was this quote that stuck in my craw:

The onus is on the customer, not the store as I keep saying.

I don't think either party should be let off the hook.

I didn't mean to make it personal or imply if you did think x it meant you were a bad person or anything. Just trying to understand where you were coming from, and now I think I do, and I agree. If a person is going to get a pet or engage in a hobby where lives are at stake, theirs or an animal's, they need to do research before starting. The proliferation of cheap plastic kayaks in the US has made it easy for anyone to drop by Walmart, pick one up, and be on the water that day, without any lessons, and those are the people who getting themselves in trouble and causing others to risk their lives to save them. The 10 gallon all in one setup is the aquarium hobby's version of this.

When I worked at SPCA, we had plenty of dogs and cats given up by people who thought having a pet would be fun and bought one from a pet store (worst place to get one) without asking themselves whether they were ready to take care of one. Fortunately far fewer were the animals that came in in really bad shape from neglect. I guess this is because there is a certain social stigma to the neighbors seeing you let your dog or cat starve to death or die of an easily preventable disease. The problem is there is no such stigma to allowing fish to die. A kitten is cuddly to almost everyone, but it is easy for people to see a fish as "bait", and therefore no stigma to allowing one to die of neglect. I'm not in favor of penalties for those who do let their fish die because they didn't take the time to research, so I guess that puts the burden of protecting the fish on the shopkeeper who sells them.

I agree with you that too many people try to shirk responsibility. I think the responsibility needs to go both ways, be on both the buyer and the LFS. While the buyer should research before buying, saying that's how it should be and leaving it at that won't solve the problem. But then again, the people who are coming to this website are the kind to do the research, we are preaching to the choir, and since this is an academic discussion on a website, I guess nothing we talk about is going to solve the problem anyhow

 

[JTAM963]

I'll admit..until recently When I set up my tank I wasn't really into fish or researching them for that matter. I now realize all the diff aspects that go along with fishkeeping. It would be impossible to put laws and all those sorts on fish, because people overall just don't respect them as much as dogs/cats etc... It's tough for people not wanting to buy a betta and put him in a bowl/ or a goldfish. I work at a lfs and people buy goldfish constantly for small tanks.. I bet about one out of every 20 people who buy a goldfish actually have a 55 gallon or larger...its just the facts

 

[sarah5775]

I must say that the lfs near my house (A Petco) is really good. I actually had an employee talk me out of buying a molly because after I told him what other fish I had, he said I'd be overstocked. He refused a sale for the good of the fish in my tank when I didn't know better. They have labels on all the fish tanks saying how big the fish get, with big red stickers on the oscars' tank warning of aggressiveness and large size. They do not sell pacus or red-tailed catfish, unlike the Petsmart nearby. When I was interested in hermit crabs they gave me several handouts to take home and look at before I bought them.

I now get all my supplies there. Unfortunately, their prices are not the best. But their animals are well cared for and their staff is knowledgeable, so its worth it to support them. For a chain, they are wonderful!!

 

[Nook]

betta's, I know its played to death on all fish sites, but they require more then a little vase to keep them alive and healthy!

 

[gwenavir]

wow this has been very exciting reading everyones back and forth and i hope you all dont hate me fo this but i have a bichor eel, silver dollar, chocolate albino pleco, blue paradise.....and every thing else has been eaten by my eel...all in a 10gal tank, but before the lynching begins i've got two 45gal tanks on the way to my new apartment, met a local petsmart manager and he is selling me them for $200.00. i am so excited to see how they live in more room!!!
all of my pet store experiences have involved warnings thankfully cause other wise i would have brought home a tiger oscar and thrown him in with my already squished but happy family!

 

[Jarred Darque]

Here is one thing that I do not agree with that Very many of you are saying.

There should be NO, I repeat NO bans on what fish you are and arent allowed to keep, with the exception of fish that are currently cuasing damage to the local ecosystem through bad fishkeeping practices.

The reason is because most of us live in the U.S., our entire existance is based on our freedom to make our own decisions free of our government (at least, that is how it is supposed to be, recent laws and such are posing a problem in this respect with encroaching the area of unconstitutional). For the government to place a ban on any fish for reasons simply because they are too large for the average home aquaria, or even to pass restrictions suych as requiring a license is something that they should not be doing as it imposes on your freedoms.

Now, what hte government CAN do, is get people with inhumane treatment of animals for the guy with the 10 inch pleco in a 5 gallon tank, but it is against the basic laws of our country for the gov't to pass laws bannins the sales of certain fish that are not curently a threat to the local ecosystem to the public.

Just my thoughts. Now, while they could not rpevent the sale of fish, tracking the sales, and the conditions the fish are kept in by the purchaseers, is another thing that they would be able to do. I.E, routinely check on anyone who has purchased a red-bellied pacu to make sure that they are housing the fish properly, until such time that it has been deemed that the person has the fish in what could be considere da final living place for the fish.

i.e., I buy a red-bellied pacu, 1 inch long, Icome home, throw him in a 10 gallon, well if I dont have him in a 30gal by teh time he is oer 3 inches, slap me with fines, if he isnt in a75 by the time he is 6+ inches, more fines, take away the fish, etc, until such time that I have him in a tank that is large enough for his final size and weight (near 1,000 gallons I believe?)

 

[Burks]

Just waste more tax payers money......excellent.