Fry in REAL fuzz???? Help

[Kelly5978]

I was just depressed. I'm not giving up. I've actually only lost a few fry, and some look very large and strong, so I'm still hoping. I'm going to attemp to remove the crud from the bottom today. The problem with siphon was that it wasn't pulling up....as if it's stuck. It's not left over food, it's something coming off the leaves. Algae? I'm hoping. In which case, the heat lamp MIGHT be hurting by making it grow? I swear, the few I've lost seemed to get "stuck to the bottom". Is that how sliders act? I don't see them "fall", just notice that when the others swim up after pecking stuff off the bottom, the few didn't. Then they'd scoot very quick, as if trying to get up...,but couldn't. Some are very healthy looking, and others look small and don't eat as much. So, maybe it's just the deformed, messed up ones. I am waiting on the polyfilter media. Can I just put it on the side as I did the carbon? I bought a "fry sponge filter" that's covered in a plastic with minuscule holes. It has compartments, so I could add the polyfilter to that....and any other helpful media. I also bought a regular sp filter, in case you didn't think the special one would be good. Also, since I'm avoiding water changes, can I just hang an ammonia remover over the tank's side? It's registering ammonia daily. I out 1 drop of BBS (finally figured out a good mix, so they're on only live food now ?....) and I watch them eat before adding another. I do this (about 4-5 drops total) until I see them stop eating. I leave the few left in there for the stragglers. The heat lamp is what's keeping the tank temp consistent. I've been off for 2 days, and monitored closely. The heater in the tank is never even on. The heat lamp is heTing the tank to 80. If the room gets cold, then the heater kicks on, but only for a few min. So, I'll keep the lamp running.
I sent you a text (if your number is the same) about ph. I can't tell you what it is. I can't post pics here. It comes back lighter than the highest color on the high range ph test, and darker than the highest color on the reg ph test. So.,,,I guess it's right around 7? I turned down the bubbles, so I will test again today.
I did notice a drop in KH from 2...to 0. I haven't changed anything since testing last. No WC. Does this mean their utilizing more of the "stuff" in the water? Do I need to do anything about that? I'd hate to lose them over a ph swing!
The ammonia will affect them at ph of 7 right? The tank now registers slight ammonia every night. I'm removing the gunk at the bottom today, but I will tell you, they seem to stay lower to the bottom towards the end of the day. I stopped adding prime, per your instructions, but when I WAS, they would immediately perk up and swim all over. Does this change your instructions on anything?
I've proved your point about having the correct set up yet again! A rainbow shark got through the divider in the main tank, and I now only have 10 fry (in that tank). They look really healthy, but went through me catching the shark. I also proved your temp statements....the main tank fry are bigger than the many marble fry I have in their own tank. The 82/3 temp has helped them grow faster. The pure black ones are gorgeous....I really hope a few survive!
Anyways, I'm sorry I messed up the experiment. If these live, hopefully I'll at least learn something about the water.
ALL fry are older than I have ever had. So, no matter what, I've made improvements....thanks to you. Just let me know what to do about ammonia until the media and sponge filter come in.
Side thought....once I do get these things, am I going to actually cycle this 2.5 tank? Or is the sponge just to keep things in check? If I do actually cycle it, would dr. Tims one and only be a bad idea? I was just thinking it would help me avoid WCs by an instant cycle. Just a thought.

 

[Kelly5978]

Also, could color be showing so soon? They are marble, but most of them have this black "spot" on their head. On some, it even looks raised a little. While siphoning the few dead today, I noticed
1 was still slightly moving. He looked splotched black. I bought all new nets,and things, to avoid cross contamination. But, I noticed another 1 "flicking". He actually got up and swam away, instead of dying....but what would make a fry rub it's head on the bottom?

 

[Kelly5978]

Andy-
I've now lost 1/2 of the marble wigglers. Overnight. I thought it was something I did, until I tested the water...,ammonia is definitely .25, and nitrites are now .25. I am still waiting on the sponge and polyfill. Can I do water changes now? Or, hang an ammonia bag over the side? Or WHAT DO I DO? I am indebted to you for all your help, and I know you're afraid my water changes are the problem in the past. But....ammonia and nitrites kill everytime. Here are my ideas, but I'm really trying to wait to hear back from you....I know you're busy....but my success is dying in front of my eyes. Nitrites could be the cause of black spots and "flicking". So could ammonia. The tank is cloudy. They're dying fast.
Can I:
1. Do a huge water change?
2. Overnight a pre-seeded sponge filter from angelsplus.
3. Use dr tims one and only to instantly cycle the tank?
4. Hang an ammonia bag over the side?
5. Add the huge 55g sponge to this little tank, at least for the time being...
6. I could take the sm sponge filter that's in the main tank. I was "seeding" it for the fry tank to begin with. But, I'm so afraid there's bad bacteria from the tetra in the main tank, that I ordered a new one for the fry.
Please, please, please get back to me. The fry deaths are unnecessary...but I'm afraid whatever I do will make things worse. All I've done so far is add prime. I didn't know what else to do. I was watching them die. Hope that wasn't a dumb move on my part. All I was thinking was "stop their suffering for now". Prime does that right? If I remember correctly, it binds to ammonia, making it non-toxic....but there's nothing in the tank to filter it out.
So, what does this mean? I have questioned the no-water change from the beginning, but if you keep fry in a jar for a month....well, I guess it's not the same as your ph makes ammonia actually ammonium, right? So....even though I may mess something up with water changes....doing NO water changes in higher than 7 ph water will kill them for sure, right? I can't even try to lower ph, cause that would also hurt them, right? I don't want all your secrets. I just want to keep these beautiful, healthy, large fry from dying of something as stupid as ammonia! If the polyfilter is supposed to absorb the bad stuff, hense no water changes, can I use something I have now? I mean....I don't understand how ANY media will work without a filter, but if I can put something in the tank to absorb the toxic stuff, please tell me it's safe...and I will do so NOW! I have ammonia chips, purigen (slightly used), nitra-zorb (slightly used), clearmax, and regular sponges. Will it hurt them to hang something over the side? I'm trying to follow every thing you tell me, so I can be successful like you. Please advise....

 

[Andy Sager]

I've sent you a text with what to do. Will try to call you tomorrow (Thurs.)

 

[Andy Sager]

Here's a bit more info on KH:
Buffering Capacity (KH, Alkalinity)

Buffering capacity refers to water's ability to keep the pH stable as acids or bases are added. pH and buffering capacity are intertwined with one another; although one might think that adding equal volumes of an acid and neutral water would result in a pH halfway in between, this rarely happens in practice. If the water has sufficient buffering capacity, the buffering capacity can absorb and neutralize the added acid without significantly changing the pH. Conceptually, a buffer acts somewhat like a large sponge. As more acid is added, the ``sponge'' absorbs the acid without changing the pH much. The ``sponge's'' capacity is limited however; once the buffering capacity is used up, the pH changes more rapidly as acids are added. Buffering has both positive and negative consequences. On the plus side, the nitrogen cycle produces nitric acid (nitrate). Without buffering, your tank's pH would drop over time (a bad thing). With sufficient buffering, the pH stays stable (a good thing). On the negative side, hard tap water often almost always has a large buffering capacity. If the pH of the water is too high for your fish, the buffering capacity makes it difficult to lower the pH to a more appropriate value. Naive attempts to change the pH of water usually fail because buffering effects are ignored.
In freshwater aquariums, most of water's buffering capacity is due to carbonates and bicarbonates. Thus, the terms ``carbonate hardness'' (KH), ``alkalinity'' and ``buffering capacity'' are used interchangeably. Although technically not the same things, they are equivalent in practice in the context of fishkeeping. Note: the term ``alkalinity'' should not be confused with the term ``alkaline''. Alkalinity refers to buffering, while alkaline refers to a solution that is a base (i.e., pH > 7).
How much buffering does your tank need? Most aquarium buffering capacity test kits actually measure KH. The larger the KH, the more resistant to pH changes your water will be. A tank's KH should be high enough to prevent large pH swings in your tank over time. If your KH is below roughly 4.5 dH, you should pay special attention to your tank's pH (e.g, test weekly, until you get a feel for how stable the pH is). This is ESPECIALLY important if you neglect to do frequent partial water changes. In particular, the nitrogen cycle creates a tendency for an established tank's pH to decrease over time. The exact amount of pH change depends on the quantity and rate of nitrates produced, as well as the KH. If your pH drops more than roughly two tenths of a point over a month, you should consider increasing the KH or performing partial water changes more frequently. KH doesn't affect fish directly, so there is no need to match fish species to a particular KH.
Note: it is not a good idea to use distilled water in your tank. By definition, distilled water has essentially no KH. That means that adding even a little bit of acid will change the pH significantly (stressing fish). Because of its instability, distilled (or any essentially pure water) is never used directly. Tap water or other salts must first be added to it in order to increase its GH and KH.

 

[Kelly5978]

Got it. I am on way home now. I try to understand all that. So, in more basic terms....since my kh is only 1....my fry tank is not buffered well, and ph can fluctuate (possibly why I can't get an accurate reading). As I add food and the fry grow (and poop), more acid is making my ph go up, even though kh and gh stay the same. So....if I put new water of the same kh/gh in the tank, there may still be a huge ph difference, which will kill them. Right? And, if nothing else, since my ph is above 7 (even though gh is 3, kh is 1), the acids are raising my ph because there's no buffer (kh below 4). New water (gh-3, kh-1) will probably have low ph, because there no acid (fry) in the bottle of water. So, a water change drastically changes my ph. Right? Also, the ammonia from the acids becomes toxic above ph of 6, so I'm just screwed every which way. Can't change water, can't NOT change water. Am I on the right track here? So...,what do I do? I read that baking soda will raise kh, but not ph or gh. Should I be adding that (or something else) to the "new tank water" ---per your text--- so the ph will stay low? Then....water changes would be okay, ammonia stays non-toxic, and ph of old and new water would all stay low ph without fluctuations????

 

[Kelly5978]

I really want to understand this...so I avoid problems in the future....if I am on the right track....my next confusion is: does KH fluctuate? I get kh needs to be 4, in order to have no ph fluctuations. But, does kh then fluctuate based on acids (or whatever), thus....screwing it all up again? Or is that where weekly water changes come in? I guess I don't have to really understand it all....just what works...so if I measure my bottled water to 4 kh/6 gh....ph should stay low, and all will be happy? (I mean in the main tanks....I know we're going much softer in the fry tank). So, what do I do for them?

 

[Andy Sager]

I really want to understand this...so I avoid problems in the future....if I am on the right track....my next confusion is: does KH fluctuate? I get kh needs to be 4, in order to have no ph fluctuations. But, does kh then fluctuate based on acids (or whatever), thus....screwing it all up again? Or is that where weekly water changes come in? I guess I don't have to really understand it all....just what works...so if I measure my bottled water to 4 kh/6 gh....ph should stay low, and all will be happy? (I mean in the main tanks....I know we're going much softer in the fry tank). So, what do I do for them?

I think you got it backwards in your last post, Acids make the PH go down not up.
KH is all about buffering. KH helps keep the PH stable ( not up or down, STABLE.) So if you had a high PH and high KH, it would be more difficult for the PH to lower due to the fish's pollutions. Reversely, if you have a low KH and High PH, your water would be more easily changed to a lower the PH due to the acids from the fish. HOWEVER, since were dealing with a lower KH value, the water is more able to acidify. In your case, that could be better for now as the fry would not be harmed by the ammonia as it would be ammonium when present in a pH LOWER than 7.0. The lower the better! ( to a degree.)
The point of doing the weekly water changes is to dilute the nitrates( an acid) that help dissolve ( for a lack of a better scientific term) the calcium & carbonate ions that make up the KH value thus reducing the water's ability to stabilize.

Bottom line for your fry, If you have a sponge filter already going, you can, according to the Seachem PRIME blog, dose it every 48 hrs to detoxify ammonia and up to 5 times the dose to detoxify the nitrites while the filter establishes.

I've got to go so I'll try to explain more later.

 

[Kelly5978]

Darn! Got your message. Was picking up the real kids, and didn't want to disturb you by getting back with you after 20 min. Okay, well, you are, as always, right. I just tested fry tank...kh:2, gh:3. Ph: 6.4. I've never seen that color! So...they are safe as of now? Okay....
1. Do I still do the huge "pull the fry" water change?
2. Is my "sponge filter" working? As I said, I had to make it. The ammonia is now under .25, and nitrites are 0. But, that's probably from the water change last night. The filter has bubbles coming up through the top of the sponge....not through the plastic tube. Will that still work? Or should I still exchange the real one when it finally gets here?
3. The fry (about 80% of the 40 left) have the black bumps on head. Of those, 20% have them all over. They ARE raised. (I'm sending you a pic, since I can't upload here). Could this be nitrite caused? Or could it still be color, even though it's raised?
4. My confusion about the kh was based on my main tank. The tank water (and replacement water) tests gh:6, kh:3. ALWAYS! Yet, the ph is either 7, or more likely, 8 (hard to differentiate the colors on the chart). Is that because I have 2 filters...and they make too many bubbles? And....kinda the same subject....could any of this be because of evaporation? My tank loses at least an inch a day. I change water every 7 days, but can't remove much, because it's already 2/3 full. That's a 55g tank! It's really cold here....is this happening because of the heater heat in the tank?

Well, I'm kicking myself for missing you....but I'll proceed as planned and hope to hear back...

 

[Andy Sager]

Darn! Got your message. Was picking up the real kids, and didn't want to disturb you by getting back with you after 20 min. Okay, well, you are, as always, right. I just tested fry tank...kh:2, gh:3. Ph: 6.4. I've never seen that color! So...they are safe as of now? Okay....
1. Do I still do the huge "pull the fry" water change?
2. Is my "sponge filter" working? As I said, I had to make it. The ammonia is now under .25, and nitrites are 0. But, that's probably from the water change last night. The filter has bubbles coming up through the top of the sponge....not through the plastic tube. Will that still work? Or should I still exchange the real one when it finally gets here?
3. The fry (about 80% of the 40 left) have the black bumps on head. Of those, 20% have them all over. They ARE raised. (I'm sending you a pic, since I can't upload here). Could this be nitrite caused? Or could it still be color, even though it's raised?
4. My confusion about the kh was based on my main tank. The tank water (and replacement water) tests gh:6, kh:3. ALWAYS! Yet, the ph is either 7, or more likely, 8 (hard to differentiate the colors on the chart). Is that because I have 2 filters...and they make too many bubbles? And....kinda the same subject....could any of this be because of evaporation? My tank loses at least an inch a day. I change water every 7 days, but can't remove much, because it's already 2/3 full. That's a 55g tank! It's really cold here....is this happening because of the heater heat in the tank?

Well, I'm kicking myself for missing you....but I'll proceed as planned and hope to hear back...

Sponge filters work best when they pull the water into the center column and expell it up through the center. If yours isn;t doing that, it's working effectively. Suggestion: Maybe turn down the air so it's not blowing so hard and escaping through the sponge. You can do a test to see how effective your filter is by and using a dropper, place one or two drops of M. Blue right above the sponge and see if it gets pulled into the spong or blown away from the sponge. That will let you see the direction of the water flow. (You want it to get sucked in. )

PH and GH: My well water has a GH of only 6 drops, KH of about 3 drops but a PH of about 8.4. I'm having mixed results with eggs hatching in this water. Then I take rainwater, GH-0, KH- 0, PH 6.0 and the eggs hatch at a very high rate. ( I lost the last marble spawn which was in tank water cause of the cold and lack of space in the house.) So there's a failure after a very high success so I know the problem is the water. This is in the tanks where I softened the water with the pillows, GH-1 drop, KH-5 drops after using Proper PH 6.5. You see how water plays such a major role in success? The ENTIRE FL fish farming business moved from S. FL up to this general area for the water. It's 1,ooo times better than it was down there yet I can't get good results using it on the Angels I bought up North in acidic water. Does that tell you anything?

As for the discoloration, I can't tell you. I've not heard of diseases besides velvet causing discoloration. That needs to be a wait and see thing. I would think that if it were a parasite, those fry would be dead by now. Since the color matches the parents , that's where I'm putting my theoretical money.

For your question #1- Now the water changes need to be small unless you add lower ph replacement water. If you raise the PH too high, you RETOXIFY (if that is a real word) the ammonia and endanger the fry. Once you see the nitrites rise and fall ( use the PRIME every 48 hours to keep that safe) you will have a cycled filter and you can start to gradually AND I MEAN GRADUALLY!!!!! raise the ph on the fry.

YOur big tank with the evaporation: Yes it's most likely evaporation because you have a heater trying to heat the water against the cold air. it's the same as boiling water in a pot. If you just let it boil, eventually you run out of water in the pot. Same thing with the fish tanks. Your cover is obviously NOT holding in the water. Keep your eyes on the KH, GH and PH when you start adding the water back in because the tanks values should have risen due to the evaporation so you don;t want to add too much of anything back into the tank. This should not be thought of as a water change as you are not taking out the water with all that it's made up of that's in there. You are replacing the H20 that left.

I think that covers everything?

 

[Kelly5978]

Okay, I apologize for not getting back with you. I literally dropped my phone in an empty (thank god) fry tank. I have been incommunicado. I missed out on the slates, so if you see more, please send link and I will purchase immediately!
Updates:
Marble fry- the sponge filter was NOT working. I was getting ammonia readings daily, and losing fry nightly. I took your advice and removed the fry. But, I could not get the white stuff off the floor bottom. I tried to filter it, but it went through even the coffee filter! So, I bought a 5.5g, moved as much of the clean tank water as I could, and matched temp, gh, kh, ph on the rest of the water. I'm convinced the white stuff was algae from the leaf or some bacteria mix. The fry would swim in it, picking out food, and I'd find them dead the next day. Whereas the ones that stayed up top, lived. The night before the big move, I was down to 10 fry. 8 were swimming at the absolute top of the water, as if something was very wrong. This may have been the lack of air from my inefficient sponge "filter", ph issues, or a mixture of issues. Either way, the second I moved the remaining fry, they started swimming fine. This tank has a HOB filter. I covered the intake with pantyhose, but there is still a LOT of water movement. I don't think the fry could swim in it when they're first born. I have yet to change any water on this tank, and with smaller feelings, I've shown no ammonia as of yet. Also no white stuff on the floor. The only test that has changed is ph. It appears to have risen on its own....(is it the water current again causing this?). I also finally received my sponge filters, and other test supplies from amazon. So.... Please advise me!!!! First, should I switch to the sponge filter immediately? And Should I wait for an ammonia reading, then do small water changes with lower ph (but matching kh-1, gh-3) of the tank? This mix ends up with a ph of 6.4. The tank tests at 6.8-7. I guess my real bottom line question is this: if my filters, or the weather, or the whatever else is going to continue to raise the ph of my tanks (remember this is completely bottled water at this point), should I just use buffers? I've always been afraid of them, but you mentioned ph down.... I get that buffers are bad because if your kh isn't low enough, the ph will just shoot back up and kill everything. But, should I use buffers to low kh/gh water just to keep it where it starts? I spoke with seachem directly a few times. I have acid and alkaline buffers. And, I know how much of each to add to distilled water to get the ph I want. But don't I then have to worry about replacing the electrolytes and other elements? Or do buffers do that for me? Finally, are buffers safe for fry? My 10 babies are doing great, but I'd like to see them grow, so I can learn the next steps....for future attempts.
Also, the marble pair will spawn again in the next few days. So, I'll use the 2.5g for their eggs. Should I try a different water mix? Or try this again without the algae leaves? I got the polyfilter. How do I use this in a tank with sponge filter only? Will this remove ammonia...so I don't have to change water until the fry are stronger? And....won't my ph rise anyways? (I just don't get how it's the only thing that keeps fluctuating and messing me up! If I used higher kh water, would it stop fluctuating? I have pillow softeners. I'm really considering trying your method of buffering and softening the water before adding....so any tips on that process are welcome (would I need to keep the water aerated? Or can it just sit in a bucket?)

Black/gold- 1 survivor. The rest have died off. I think the shark helped with that, but, I have 1 gorgeous baby in there that is starting to show a sprouting dorsal. My only questions on this are about the mom....the day all but 1 disappeared, she stopped caring for the lone survivor. She doesn't try to eat him, but pretty much ignores him. The dad still watched him, and chases the shark away, but the mom will swim with the shark as if there's no problem. She's also getting fat again. Did she give up on this one, and "start over"? Will they eat the baby if they lay new eggs? Finally, can I put this baby in with the others in the 5.5g? The ph is the same, but gh/kh are lower in the 5.5g. What else could I do to save him? He's my biggest baby. I am dying to see him sprout fins! I know it's not financially wise to put forth effort to keep him alive, but I really want to! Hopefully after a couple successful spawns, I won't be so attached and emotionally dependent on their survival.

On the big tank (as discussed in your last response), I DO believe that the evaporation is my issue. The tank water is kh:3, gh:6. I can never get an accurate ph reading. I've even left it out 24 hrs before adding the ph test solution....still not any color on the chart. It has 2 HOB filters, and a small sponge filter on the divided pair's side. (Just food for thought-the divided pair look great, whereas the other 2/3rds of the tank have missing scales, lack of color, etc.) Here's my theory: I'm adding exactly matched kh/gh water which has a ph of 7 before I add to the tank. A week goes by, and even though my ammonia/nitrites/nitrates are fine, I still do a water change because of the evaporated water. (And I mean a real water change, in which I pull water from the bottom and suck out crap with the vacuum). At this point, the 2 filters are creating major waves, because there's so much space between the filter edge and actual water, that it's almost a waterfall. This is probably making my ph get really high (bubbles=higher ph), in addition to the buildup of "stuff" that also raises ph. So, even though I add water matched to kh/gh, I'm probably way lower ph then what's now in the tank. This could very well be causing my problems (missing scales, etc) on the side that has the 2 filters. It could ALL be about ph! (OMG, I hate chemistry!!!!). So, if you think this could be right....what should I do? As of now, I've only added water without taking some out first one time, and had all sorts of problems right after. Are you saying I CAN top off water? How would I do that safely? I can't match the high ph of the tank in my replacement water without raising the kh/gh....which I don't want to do anyways. Is there any way to stop this madness? Or do I need to do freaking daily water changes on a huge tank until the weather figures itself out??? There must be a way to stop the ph fluctuations. Is raising the kh with buffers the answer? And, if I was wrong about the kh/ph relationship..,,and low kh actually allows for a DROP in ph, why does my ph keep rising in all these tanks?
Sorry for all the questions. I really am trying to do exactly what you instruct. If I could just get this water figured out, I could start raising and selling these babies (and stop bugging you ?!

 

[Andy Sager]

I don't know how hard you have these filters running but yes, if there is heavy oxygenation of the water, the PH rises. You also don;t want heavy aeration with sponge filters so that the water runs smoothly through the sponge and there is enough time for the bacteria to consume the ammonia that is in the water.

The fry tank: Remove the HOB and replace with a sponge filter. Keep the aeration to moderate. The PH swings are allowed by the low KH. Since you have little buffering with the lower KH, the PH does not remain stable. These small fry don't use a lot of oxygen so the sponge filters should be barely running. TONE IT DOWN unless you see the fry at the surface gasping for air. This should help keep your PH from fluctuating.

At this point, with such few fry left, you just need to keep the tank clean and hopefully at a PH under 6.8 so that the ammonia does not create an issue. Move the surviving 1 fry in with these other marbles if they are close in age. If you see a rise in ammonia in the fry tank and the ph is under 6.8, do nothing extra. Once the nitrites start to show up, use the PRIME to detoxify.

The Black/ Gold pair: This pair is not set up to successfully raise fry. Until such time that it is, I suggest you either pull the eggs or just let nature take it's course. You can't fit a square peg into a round hole no matter how hard you try. I've mentioned this before with this set up. It's a disaster looking for a place to happen. That being said, yes it's common for Angelfish parents to eat the surviving previous spawn when they get ready to spawn again. ( Yet another reason to pull eggs.) I just had this happen with my Silver V/ Gold Marble pair. Oh well. I pulled their latest spawn cause I want fry.

So all in all, these spawns should have been good lessons for you. We were able to successfully eliminate nothing as the problems. Right? But now you have the right materials/ filters/ foods for the next fry. Right? You know that the artificial plant with the algae is a problem so you either shouldn't use it or you need to keep it clean so that you don;t have an algae problem in the fry tank. Right? If you want to raise fry, you really should do it separate from the parents. Right? You have seen how much food to give the fry so you don;t pollute the water and kill off the fry. Right? You know that gravel and fry are a bad mix. Right? You know to keep water changes on eggs and new fry to a minimum and minimum amount. Right? You need to keep the temp stable in the tanks. Right? You've seen that fry will live if you leave them alone in a proper set up. Right?
Like I said, you should have learned a lot so next time, these issues shouldn;t come up. Right?

If you have any empty fry tanks, clean them out and get them ready for water WHEN the time is right. Keep your breeders well fed so they will hopefully produce good fry. The next spawns, we'll try again to see what effect your tap water has on the fry.

Believe it or not, you ARE getting there.

 

[Kelly5978]

Thanks Andy. I know I'm a head case....but I am learning. I will do a separate post, as this isn't really a breeding question, but I have found a house. (Yay)! Now, I will have the room for extra tanks if needed, and no more electrical shortage issues. The question: how do I move these fish? I finally am starting to get this right, and now I have to uproot everything . The end result will be worth it, but I would like as few casualties as possible. Any tips?
My little, all-black guy in the main tank (named Amil ...because he either represents "hope" that I will someday be successful at this, or become "a meal" to another fish) is doing extremely well. So are the remaining marbles in the 5.5g. I wish I did not have to move them....?

 

[Kelly5978]

One question: if my fry tank has kh:2, gh:3, but ph:7.6 (probably due to the HOB), what should my replacement water be? I am still not showing ammonia in the new 5.5, but I would like to add the sponge filter, and get the ph back under 6...so I won't have to worry about ammonia. Also, the water is extremely low. I plan to move the fish last, so I still need to maintain for a few weeks. If I add water with gh:3, kh:3, the ph is:6. Will that much of a difference kill them? I'm kind of stuck here. If I turn off bubbles, will ph go back down? I can't make the tank water!!!!

 

[Andy Sager]

If you are moving quickly and close by, you can put the fish in a bucket with a portable aerator and go about your move and take your time. You can also save the water in buckets and move it to the new place. Put the fish in a bucket with an aerator, reset the tanks and put the water back in. It will be like they never moved. 1 thing, when moving glass tanks, there is a chance that the new position won't be the exact same as the old position when you moved them. I always use at least 1/2" styrofoam under my tanks under 30 gals and 3/4" for anything over 30 gals. This way, the tank can shift without putting pressure on the glass. This is how my 30 year old tanks have survived as long as they have

As for moving the 5.5 and 2.5 gal tanks, I'd just remove (and save) about 3/4 of the water then move the fish in the tanks then replace the water when you get to your new place. The fry should be fine in that amount of water for a few hours considering that there will be splashing from the movement which will oxygenate the water.

As for lowering the PH again, you just need to do it slowly. Don;t add more than 10% of water volume of the lower PH water in a 24 hour period. It will take a while for the PH to lower. At this point, dilution will be the solution Putting the sponge filter in a soon as possible will get the ball rolling so you won;t need to worry so much. Since you have disease questions, you can use a bio starter product to get the ball rolling. Couple that with the PRIME and you should be fine. Turning off the bubbles will kill the fish faster than it will lower the PH. Don;t do that

Just remember, in 1974, I moved adult fish from NJ to FL in the trunk of a car over 2 days with no air pumps or oxygen in the bags. No losses. I repeated this feat the same way last year again with no fish losses. It should be a piece of cake for you

 

[Kelly5978]

Okay. Looking into portable aerator! Thx. So....the temp won't kill them? I was wondering if they make portable heaters? It's REALLY cold here. The drive between houses is about 15 min on the snow. Plus, I'll have to set everything back up.....
On the ph thing...I am conducting an experiment on my guppy tank. Every single tank in my house has the same issue: I measure kh/gh/temp exactly, but the ph goes up. In a tank with kh 4 (which is supposed to prevent fluctuations) gh:7 and temp:78.....the water goes in at a ph of 7.0. Within a few days, it's 7.8 or 8. This is exactly what happens In my main tank. So...I'm looking for a way to "set" the ph....and hold it. (Is it true it is higher at night?....how in the world am I ever supposed to know what it actually is?) I do all my testing at night....so even if the time changes things...it shouldn't change because I'm doing the tests all at the same time of night. Okay, so I was told by seachem that if I put 1.3acid buffer and 1 alkaline buffer in a tank with my gh/kh, it would lower my tank to ph 6.5. It's supposed to go down about .2 a day. Once I reach 6.5, I'm supposed to stop adding the buffers. Supposedly, the tank will just STAY at 6.5. Then, I add the ratio to replacement water only. Does this sound accurate? I really think ph is my problem in ALL my tanks. Whether it's the evaporation, filters, or whatever....my ph always ends up way higher than what I put it in as. I can't think of any other way to do this. For that matter, I don't know how to lower the ph of the fry tank, without changing the kh/gh. So...,do you think buffers are safe for fry? And, if it works on the guppy tank, and I try it on the fry tank, do I need to add anything for trace elements or electrolytes? I've always been afraid of buffers, but it took the guppy tank down .2 as promised. So...I'm going to keep trying. Just wondered your opinion on buffers, and if there's anything I should know....or anything else in supposed to add.

 

[Andy Sager]

Yes, Temp is an issue but if you put the fish in bags instead of buckets and put them in a strofoam box or cooler, they should be fine. PLUS, the car is heated ( isn't it?) so they shouldn't get too cold if they are in the heated car. Just remember, they should be the last thing out of the old house and the first thing into the new house.

Yes, PH fluctuates based on a number of things. For example, Calcium based products ( ie decorations, gravels, etc.) will cause the PH to go up. Driftwood will cause the PH to go down. Yes, I believe it makes more changes at night than during the day. (This is one of the reasons I don;t test PH every day or every hour. It gradually changes during a 24 hour period so the fish can adjust to it. It's only when the PH shifts dramatically and quickly that it's an issue.

Yes, I do use the Proper PH buffer on the water I am adding to the tanks BEFORE I add it to the tanks. The more drastic the PH difference there is between tank water and replacement water, the slower I drip the water into the tank. I don't just dump water in. I do this only with my well water, not my rain water.

As for your Guppies, they actually prefer a higher pH so I don't think you should really mess with bringing there's down. Also, I've always found that livebearers do better with some salt in their water ( I use a teaspoon per gal) which will make the GH slightly higher witch also could be why (if you are using salt with them) your PH won't fall and stay down.

Got it?

 

[Kelly5978]

I think so...I was only testing on the guppies cause they seem hardy. Was afraid to test on the babies. Okay...I'm trying to get this...on the water I used the buffers (alkaline 1 to acid 1:3) the ph has indeed gone to 6.5 and stayed (for a day now). Am I correct that the acid buffer is lowering ph, but the alkaline is keeping it stable? I was playing with different combos (in a bucket...not in actual fish water), and I noticed that the acid buffer lowers kh. Alkaline raises it. For 6.5 ph, the kh drops to 1. My questions:
1. Does the buffer "substitute" for the kh? Meaning....kh of 1 is VERY unstable. Is the buffer doing the job of kh and keeping ph from fluctuating?
2. If I use buffers, do I need to add trace elements or electrolytes?

Also, I want to buy those slates,..did I miss the message with a link? Or do I just search that name on eBay?

 

[Andy Sager]

I think so...I was only testing on the guppies cause they seem hardy. Was afraid to test on the babies. Okay...I'm trying to get this...on the water I used the buffers (alkaline 1 to acid 1:3) the ph has indeed gone to 6.5 and stayed (for a day now). Am I correct that the acid buffer is lowering ph, but the alkaline is keeping it stable? I was playing with different combos (in a bucket...not in actual fish water), and I noticed that the acid buffer lowers kh. Alkaline raises it. For 6.5 ph, the kh drops to 1. My questions:
1. Does the buffer "substitute" for the kh? Meaning....kh of 1 is VERY unstable. Is the buffer doing the job of kh and keeping ph from fluctuating?
2. If I use buffers, do I need to add trace elements or electrolytes?

Also, I want to buy those slates,..did I miss the message with a link? Or do I just search that name on eBay?

Loosely, the buffering makes the water harder to change it's PH. That's the same as a HIGHER KH value. You need to stop mixing the KH, GH values effecting PH. They don't CAUSE a change in PH. They ENABLE the PH to do something ( rise, fall, stableize). Other things ( you sometimes do and often don't) CAUSE the PH to change.
Using the 2 types of buffering was supposed to make the PH fall slowly. If you use Proper PH 6.5 and mix in Proper PH 7.0 with it, you should wind up with, for example, 6.8. (A value not targeted by the 2 different buffers.)

As for your test results, I used proper PH on the water I had softened to a GH of 1. Remember, after softening, my GH was 1, My KH was 2-3 but my PH was 8.2- 8.4. So when I added the Proper PH 6.5, it lowered the PH but raised the KH to 6 drops. The BUFFERING agent is what raises the KH so that the PH won't change.

As for whether you need to add something to your water with the Buffer, it all depends on what water you are starting with. Distilled water will need it, most tap water won't. Spring water shouldn't, RO water should.

As for the slate, check your text messages cause I sent the link. If you can't find it, just search the name.

Also, clean out your message box here. I can't leave you messages

 

[Kelly5978]

Messages cleaned! Problems:
1. My favorite baby is "spiraling". He swims along, then kind of spirals slowly....then rights himself and swims away, only to repeat. I checked my water....which leads to problem 2
2. The kh is 0 or 1. Either way....unstable. The ph comes back different every time I test it. I am just not smart enough for all this! Should I add something to stabalize?
3. There's some white gunk on the thermometer and the tank floor. What is this crap? And why does it keep invading my tank? If it's algae...where is it coming from? (Remember this is a new tank...it was perfect yesterday! All I did was switch from HOB to sponge filter!)

At this point, I have to move, and don't expect this to end well. Hopefully I do better next time. But, I wish I could figure out what the buildup on the tank floor is...and what's causing it! The past few spawns, everything is going well, then the tank gets cloudy, white gunk appears, and everything goes to sh*t. This time, I saved a few by switching tanks. But, why should I have to do that? I'm BUYING water! I understand there could still be issues with what's in that water, or...I'm the problem....but.....this is ridiculous! I'm not doing water changes! I'm not touching!
If you think it would be okay, I would like to try straight distilled next time (as you told me to do in the first place). My black/gold pair are laying eggs now. If I pull them into distilled water (m.blue, heater, etc)....do I put anything else in? At what point do I worry about electrolytes and trace elements?

As for the buffers, I think it's just beyond me. I was reading more...and it says the acid buffer "converts alkalinity to CO2". In the guppy tank, I did the 1:3acid/1alkaline buffers. The kh is now 0. The ph comes back different every time I test. And, won't too much carbon dioxide kill the fish? My guppies survive everything (so far), but obviously fry wouldn't. So....if the mixed buffers is supposed to "set" my ph...why didn't it? And, why is kh:0? Am I supposed to add more alkaline buffer to raise it? Should I just clear the tank and put in new water? Guppies are resilient, but I don't want them dying either! They are lethargic and I saw 1 of them "spiraling" also. (A baby...).

For the fry future tanks: if I can't figure out the buffers....and my spring water with kh:2, gh:3 nets a ph that is over 7....how would I proceed? Then, ammonia IS an issue. Yet, I can't do water changes...because the added water (kh/gh the same) has a lower ph! Grrrr! When you add ph down to your replacement water....does it just STAY? Should I try that?

Maybe I'm just stupid! All of this makes my head spin! I thought that if your kh was 3 or more, the ph wouldn't fluctuate. Yet, bubbles and all sorts of other factors change this. Isn't there ANY easy way to just raise fry? Why am I the only dummy that can't do this? ?

I know I go on and on, so....the main question is what to do about the 0 kh in fry and guppy tanks. How do I make it stable (or is it already stable in the guppy tank...but it's CO2 instead of kh)? Is there any other reason the babies would start spiraling?