Hi, new fish guy requesting a check on what I'm doing

[cebalrai]

Hi there, new here and fairly new to the hobby. I've got a 5.5 gal tank with a betta, 5 ghost shrimp, and live plants doing very well.... So of course I need another tank. My new tank is more ambitious so I'd like to get some eyes-on from the pros in case I'm doing anything seriously wrong.

- 20 gallon long tank, hood, upgraded the lamp to some blue-spectrum thing that looks nice and is supposed to be better than the stock aqueon one.

- Flourite sand substrate. Rinsing it was hell but I think I got it.

- Tetra 20 filter. Is it enough?

- Fairly heavily planted to start, intending on adding even more plants. I have a large gnarly piece of driftwood that I tied java moss onto. I also added pennywort, dwarf pearlgrasss pieces to hopefully spread out as a carpet, a tiny clipping of crypt something from my betta tank, a moss ball, and a couple pieces of anubias.

- The local fish store (serious hobby store not a chain) had a deal on rainbowfish so I got 2 madagascars, 5 threadfin. They're juvenilles, about 1.5-2 inches each. A couple of the female threadfins are just 1 inch.

- Using liquid CO2. I'm half-dosing the CO2 as per the fish store guy's advice. Can anyone recommend this strategy?

- And I'm using Seachem Flourish tabs... Is the liquid better?

- Today is day three of cycling with Seachem Prime. Haven't tested anything yet.

- The fish are schooling nicely and are active except for one threadfin who hides alone. I'm worried about him. He did that from the moment I got him so it's not a chemical thing I don't think.

CONCERNS:

1) The betta did fine when I cycled with Prime, however I'm worried that maybe the rainbows will not. Should I have used cheaper/fewer fish?

2)The guys at the fish store said that madagascar rainbowfish will get about 4" in length but websites I'm reading day 5-6 inches. That seems too large for my tank.

3) They're new and still adjusting, but the madagascars are voracious eaters and the threadfins are very timid and not really eating. And they have such tiny mouths, I had to put shrimp food (that dusty sinking stuff) in there, and even then they only ate a bit. And once food hits the substrate they don't seem interested in it. In my betta tank the ghost shrimp gobble up anything that falls but in this tank so far it's looking like a problem. I'm going to need a strategy here.

4) I'm planning on adding some red cherry/crystal shrimp at some point after the tank cycles. How long should I wait in order for the tank to get "dirty" enough for them?

5) I'm looking at other fish after the cycle, Dwarf Kameka Rainbowfish, maybe some neons or something. Right now there's a lot of open space.

6) Is liquid CO2 okay or do I need a diffuser system?

7) I live in an area with hard water. Do I need to do anything about that? I'm just using tap water with seachem prime.

Advice? Is there anything I'm doing wrong? Thanks!

 

[cebalrai]

Morning update: One of the female threadfins was dead. Also one of the males appears to have swim bladder issues and is floating on the top, looking like he's not long for this world. It's the one I added yesterday who never schooled and just hid. Anyone have any advice? I guess this was a poor choice of fish to cycle with.

The remaining three threadfins look okay and the Madagascars look great.

I did my first test this morning, ammonia is at or near zero and nitrite is zero.

Any advice? Should I just throw some cheap white clouds in there to help it cycle?

 

[Pseudomugil]

Threadfins are delicate fish and should not be used to cycle a tank. Using any fish to cycle a tank is cruel.

 

[cebalrai]

Threadfins are delicate fish and should not be used to cycle a tank. Using any fish to cycle a tank is cruel.

Like I said, I'm cycling it with Seachem Stability which says you can have your fish in there (safely?). When I used it for my other tank the ammonia spike was no more than .5 and dropped to 0 in just a few days. I get it that Threadfins were a bad choice, however I'm not exactly "using fish to cycle a tank" in the conventional sense.

Also I forgot to mention that I put my existing well-established aquarium's filter media and a few handfuls of substrate into the new tank.

UPDATE:
- added 8 white cloud minnows
- tested water, almost 72 hours into cycling. ammonia 0, no nitrates/ites. I don't think any fish are suffering from toxins....
- The fish seem active and happy. The one that's floating remains high-energy, just floats... poor thing....

It's pretty heavily planted like I said. Could the plants be sucking up the ammonia?

 

[cebalrai]

Another update. The one who was stuck floating at the top is now swimming around just fine like nothing ever happened. I gave the community daphnia for dinner and they went crazy for it. The threadtails even stopped being timid for ten minutes and chowed down.

Ammonia is still zero or close to zero... Not sure what's going on. Maybe after this dinner goes through them there will be some waste.

 

[serena00]

In all honesty the tank is slightly over stocked. For now it may be fine but the rainbows will get too big and love to be quite active.

And with the whole cycling stuff, I use the liquid quick start and let it go for a day then add fish. Has worked perfectly many times with no deaths. Just advice for your future! Good luck.

 

[Fresh2o]

CONCERNS:

1) The betta did fine when I cycled with Prime, however I'm worried that maybe the rainbows will not. Should I have used cheaper/fewer fish?

2)The guys at the fish store said that madagascar rainbowfish will get about 4" in length but websites I'm reading day 5-6 inches. That seems too large for my tank.

3) They're new and still adjusting, but the madagascars are voracious eaters and the threadfins are very timid and not really eating. And they have such tiny mouths, I had to put shrimp food (that dusty sinking stuff) in there, and even then they only ate a bit. And once food hits the substrate they don't seem interested in it. In my betta tank the ghost shrimp gobble up anything that falls but in this tank so far it's looking like a problem. I'm going to need a strategy here.

4) I'm planning on adding some red cherry/crystal shrimp at some point after the tank cycles. How long should I wait in order for the tank to get "dirty" enough for them?

5) I'm looking at other fish after the cycle, Dwarf Kameka Rainbowfish, maybe some neons or something. Right now there's a lot of open space.

6) Is liquid CO2 okay or do I need a diffuser system?

7) I live in an area with hard water. Do I need to do anything about that? I'm just using tap water with seachem prime.

Advice? Is there anything I'm doing wrong? Thanks!

1. Fewer fish
2. Trust your own research. As per Live Aquaria, the Madagascar rainbows can get to 6" and need a 50g tank
3. Those might not be a good combo based on feeding habits. The threadfins may come around though.
4. Probably several weeks to a month before sufficient biofilm is present. However, both will become expensive fish food for the rainbows.
5. The 20g long has a nice footprint but is not that big. I have two of them.
6. Which brand are you using? API CO2 Booster or Seachem Excel will work but may get costly over time. A lot depends on the lighting. An entry level CO2 setup can set you back about $150. DIY CO2 is a viable option for a tank that size.
7. Not sure. You may want to get a hardness test kit to see what the GH and KH values are.
About the filter, it may be a little on the weak side especially with the highly active fish you have. I run 2 filters rated for 25-50 gallons each on the same size tank.
You really should be testing everyday. Water changes are your best friend for water quality at this time.


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[Angela1108]

I would add another filter. Especially with rainbows and the Madagascar rainbows are definitely too too big for a 20l


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[QuotheRaven]

I've previously used Prime every 48 hours on a fish in cycle and had good success, was reading through the roof nitrites and a tank full of happy fish, but it took a lot of diligence with water testing, water changes, observing behaviour and Prime. I would have preferred fishless cycle but was in a situation where I couldn't.

As others have said, a bit overstocked, a better filter and just test that water regularly.

 

[cebalrai]

Thanks for the help.

Fresh, I'm using API's liquid CO2. Cost isn't really in issue, I'm looking more for effectiveness.

I called the fish store and said that they were sold to me on the premise of being 3" fish, not 6" and they said they'd take them back. And yeah I know they'd eat the shrimp....

The problem is catching them in a heavily planted tank. Any advice?

 

[QuotheRaven]

Try placing a tasty food in the net and see how they react. Perhaps leave the net in the tank for a bit, then strike :\

 

[Angela1108]

When I caught my australian rainbows to give to a friend I used two nets and kinda came at them from front and back at the same time. It wasn't easy at all


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[Fresh2o]

Thanks for the help.

Fresh, I'm using API's liquid CO2. Cost isn't really in issue, I'm looking more for effectiveness.

I called the fish store and said that they were sold to me on the premise of being 3" fish, not 6" and they said they'd take them back. And yeah I know they'd eat the shrimp....

The problem is catching them in a heavily planted tank. Any advice?

Just mentioning the cost aspect; You can get 1 gallon of Metricide 14 from Amazon for about $25. Strength-wise, it is equivalent to about fifteen 500 mL bottles of Excel.
Use two nets. One large one (8-10" or more) and a smaller net to chase them into the bigger net. Doing this during a PWC might help when the water is lower.


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[cebalrai]

Thanks. The first one I lured into the net easily with brine shrimp... The second one was a major hassle, had to drain 1/3 of the water and remove the driftwood. Now I have to rearrange the plants again

Also I took the Madagascars back (the fish guy still swears they wont grow over 4"), and got a few pencilfish instead. I figure between the threadfins, white clouds, and pencilfish, everyone is eating small food now so that's one less variable to deal with.

After the water change, day #4: 0 ammonia, 0 nitrates, 0 nitrites. Still adding daily Seachem Stability.


I wonder if since I used lots of plants, a bit of old subtrate from a cycled tank, and the filter media from a cycled tank if my new tank is already cycled and not going to have a spike. Is that possible?

 

[Angela1108]

Well seeding like that definitely helps. I would still really watch all the levels carefully and do daily wc regardless


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[cebalrai]

Well seeding like that definitely helps. I would still really watch all the levels carefully and do daily wc regardless


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Yeah that's the plan. So is it possible that with all the seeding and plants I'll never have an ammonia spike? And is that okay if I don't?

Also I have this bottle of API CO2 that I've been using. Is it okay or do I need an actual CO2 system to get good results?

 

[Angela1108]

I use liquid and have decent results. You only need co2 for med/high light anyways.



Yeah you might not get an ammonia spike- just a lite bit here and there and it's ok. I heavily seed from all my tanks when I start a new one so I don't see much


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[cebalrai]

Thanks. As far as filtration goes, should I be looking into an external cannister filter? Something like this? What's the benefit of this in a heavily planted tank like mine?


https://www.eheim.com/en_GB/products/technology/external-filters/aquacompact#description

 

[cebalrai]

Thanks.

By the way should I be looking into an external filter such as an Eheim Aquacompact 40? Or something similar? What's the benefit of this in a planted tank?

 

[Fresh2o]

I'm not familiar with that filter, but as for canisters in general, they allow for less equipment in the tank and better control of the output (compared to HOB filters).


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