Hindsight 20/20

[Hara]

well, I am going to get kinda back on topic....I have not really decided which I like better. I have Crushed Coral in my seahorse tank, much easier to keep vacuumed than the sandbed. Yes, the sandbed creatures and detritus eaters are supposed to take care of the junk, BUT, the sandbed is not mature enough yet and the critters are lazy. The black sand DOES tend to make you notice the crud more and so it is a constant "maintenance task". I really like the looks of black sand, the tan sand still had the junk on it and because I didnt notice it as much, I didnt vacuum as much...who knows, maybe the tank is staying cleaner this way. But you do have to be careful with vacuuming as you tend to suck up alot more sand than you ever would gravel.

As far as the LFS knowing/not knowing what they are doing or just deliberately trying to sell a product, who knows..I have never been happy with the LFS, prefer to become educated first, buy later and when I make a wrong decision, I just blame myself.

 

[PrettyFishies]

I agree with what some people are saying. As for my LFS (Absolutely Fish - owned by an ichyologist) ... They seem to be on point when it comes to the livestock aspect and treating problems... BUT, their prices are high... I understand that support of your LFS is important, but when you're on a budget...and this hobby has an ever-increasing budget...you have to make choices.

I chose to use this forum and supplement it with my readings to learn as much as possible about the hobby, substrates, filtration, fish compatability etc. I found Aquarium Advice to be very helpful, but I did not take the advice to be gospel, rather checked other sources... There' HOW many ways to skin a cat? Just find the method that suits you... but if everyone (or the majority) agree on something...there's probably a damn good reason...

 

[loganj]

That's the best way to go about it. The more sources you use, the more you'll learn and the broader outlook you get. What you can get from this forum and many others is advice from someone who isn't trying to sell you something. I'm always suspicious when someone is trying to sell me something .
And, yes, you may have my soapbox. It's old and creaky and it'll leak, but it's all yours .
Logan J

 

[Ender Wiggin]

That ichthologist had high prices because he actually knows how to keep fish. his specimens are probably top quality becasue of it and thus more expensive.

These days quality take a back seat to price. Why do you think Kia cars are so popular? They are dirt cheap and have a big warrenty. Compared to a fish store, Kia would be the walmart/online dealer, cheap and has a big warrenty. But then you go and look at cadilacs and gasp at the price and the warranty, just like you go visit the fish only fish store and gasp and murmer about the prices and the warrenty. but in 10 years when your Kia's parts have all been replaced (your dead walmart fish have been replaced 20 times over) and the cadilac is still plugging along (that yellow tang you bought is STILL alive!), what was really the best deal?

But hey, if you want that nice old ichthyologist out of a job, and out of the hobby, then go online and order it up. I would persoanlly like to have those people around to talkto and buy good quality fish from.

-- stepping down from my soapbox, and appoligizing if that was totally crude and rude. I just want people to look at things from all aspects, not just the bling bling

Ender

 

[Hara]

dang I must be getting old....what in the hell is the bling bling?

 

[fishfreek]

In this context I would say bling bling is equil to $$

But I could be wrong.

 

[d9hp]

In that tense yes, but if you own any silver, platinum, or "ice" that is what most call Bling-Bling (this is coming from a 14 year old freshman in high school, just for some support of the statement)

 

[loganj]

I think, for most of us, it ends up being a balance between the LFS and the online dealers. Since I'm affiliated with an LFS, I may be biased somewhat. I agree that, if you have a good LFS that offers competent advice and help, you should support them or they won't be there for long. I also understand that this is a very expensive hobby and we all like the small conveniences in life such as a place to live and groceries. Having said that, there is a thread about trusting your LFS where this topic has been pretty well thrashed about. Might want to check it out and maybe add your comments to what has already been said there.
I also agree that quality comes second to price many times. One has to weigh what you really need though. A $69.00 SeaClone isn't going to handle your 300g reef tank, but it'll do fine on your 55. On the other hand, you don't need dual downdrafts with a V-8 Chevy powered pump on your nano tank. I guess my point is that there is a balance between price and quality, usually somewhere in the middle.
Logan J

 

[Ender Wiggin]

to clarify- i meant $$.

Ender

 

[PrettyFishies]

Bling Bling, Scrilla, Cheese...it's all $$ and all hard to come by.

I know about the economics of running a store Ender... And I can understand...I plan to buy my livestock from them... But when your starting a tank and the difference in total cost between shopping around and buying from one LFS is about $1500... Then...what do you think I'm going to do? Hey... the store was there before me and will remain there with or w/o me.
Yes, I expect good advice from the, and I plan to support them from the ongoing perspective, but I can't in good faith and fairness to myself spend that kind of money, just because...I work just like everyone else to earn a living and live from my earnings... It is a balance and...well...I may be offsetting the balance, but there's plenty of people that shop at my LFS that could careless about researching better prices online and will end up supporting the LFS...

Would you pay $10 a lb for LR or $2.25?? I mean really....

 

[fishfreek]

Point made. Now lets move on..

 

[Hara]

I feel absolutely NO loyalty to any local retailer. The markup is exhorbitant, the advice is crap. Why should I make "their" mistakes. I will do my research, buy where I can find the quality I desire and a price I am willing to pay. To be honest, I could care less if they go out of business. It is because of them, that I turned to the internet to shop. Explain to me why it is that I can buy a fish online, with a 10 day guarantee and I can't find a SW fish store within 150 miles that will guarantee past the front door? Explain to me why an online retailer warranteed a VHO bulb that was 3 months old yet the LFS wouldnt even warranty one 2 days old?

 

[Guest]

Explain to me why it is that I can buy a fish online, with a 10 day guarantee and I can't find a SW fish store within 150 miles that will guarantee past the front door?

Because of overhead. Online fish stores, some of them, are just like you or I. The difference is, they have a website and they have the same resources the LFS have.

The LFS has a steep rent etc... when they sell a fish for $50, that is $50 in the bank. If they give you another fish because that one died, they lose $25 in their book.
Some of the LFS get burned because the buyer has crappy water quality, and they do end up losing money. I have heard of people taking back fish that died, in freshly made saltwater just to get by the testing at the LFS.

These are just some of the reasons I have heard and know.

Explain to me why an online retailer warranteed a VHO bulb that was 3 months old yet the LFS wouldnt even warranty one 2 days old?

This is mostly due to shipping costs and time spent for the retailer.
believe it or not, the LFS has the same return policies that the consumer does, if not, better.
Most choose to not honor the warranties because it is a hassle to the Ma Pa retailer. Also, their lack of knowledge in running a good business IMO.

Large chains I do not see this problem in as much.

Online retailers can drop ship with their suppliers which allows them to warranty items for what is standard for their suppliers. They issue a request for a drop ship and you return with RMA. Then they ship items back to the manufacturer or supplier. Good Business.....

This actually falls in the first question also.

I know this, because I have worked with wholesalers and 99% will stand behind products they sell, up to what the manufacturer allows.

I think it is all after the almighty dollar and not your patronage anymore.. My LFS's around here, could care less whether you buy anything from them or not. Was told that a few times from them because of price gouging and letting them know of it...
Real sad that we have to resort to online retailers to get quality service... What is this world coming to????

 

[tdyess]

It's always been about the almighty dollar, patronage is how to get that dollar. There is always someone to compete with slackards who screw customers. The rise of the internet will require local shops to compete with internet prices. Of course, they probably can't because of overhead, so they will need to find something to compensate for that divergence in price. Customer service is a big one. It's a slow process sometimes, but it always works.

BTW, I'm Tom. I've had a 75 gallon tank for about 2 weeks now and I love it. New to the site, hope to learn a lot.

I think it is all after the almighty dollar and not your patronage anymore.. My LFS's around here, could care less whether you buy anything from them or not. Was told that a few times from them because of price gouging and letting them know of it...
Real sad that we have to resort to online retailers to get quality service... What is this world coming to????

 

[MT79]

twenty years...you should be offering the advice

 

[MT79]

MY LFS here in plymouth meeting, PA is very competetive with the online prices, especially when shipping charges are accounted for. Not all LFS are run by morons, and, or gougers. opinions are like....well you know...read, read, and raed some more, also take notes, IMO.

 

[cathyjane]

I, being a newbie, have to agree that this thread has become somewhat volatile. I sure would appreciate a thread that is more informative. Sorry!

 

[RogerMcAllen]

I agree, if I was more proficent with splitting I would probably attemp to make this a three topics. One about starting a tank with CC substrate, one about accepting opinoins and not thinking that you are being attacked, and one about the LFS vs the OFS.

 

[Guest]

Great Idea

 

[fishfreek]

Hm, I was kind of hopeing this thread would die of old age. Up until last night the most recent post on this topic was in April.