I Need a Serious YES or NO Answer Here: Exhausted Carbon and my Fancy Goldfish...

[ArtesiaWells]

I'm pretty sure he meant that as a preface for his summary, it wasn't directed at anyone or anything. Studies and journals like that are very dry reading.

Understood. If that was the case, my apologies for misinterpretting that.

 

[aqua_chem]

And, additionally, I didn't mean to imply that people here don't have "anything better" to do with their time than assist with the elements surrounding this thread's subject. That's just ridiculous.

I wasn't implying this. I was simply implying that I didn't expect everyone to spend half an hour reading and digesting a dry microbiology literature article, so I summarized it.

 

[jetajockey]

Thanks for the analogy, Jeta...

But, if I may ask, aren't there people who believe you shouldn't add the water new fish came in -- from the store they were purchased at -- for fear of adding "disease" to their clean tank? Unless that's not what you meant...

Yes, but if you think about it, the fish are swimming around in that bag water, and have plenty of it on them and in them when they are transferred to a new tank. Keeping in mind that pathogens are mostly microscopic, it doesn't take much to move them around, so unless we are literally sterilizing the fish when they come in, it's a moot point to not add bag water for that particular reason.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

As I said, I apologize then.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Yes, but if you think about it, the fish are swimming around in that bag water, and have plenty of it on them and in them when they are transferred to a new tank. Keeping in mind that pathogens are mostly microscopic, it doesn't take much to move them around, so unless we are literally sterilizing the fish when they come in, it's a moot point to not add bag water for that particular reason.

Understood.

 

[aqua_chem]

I think what Jeta means is that bacteria is omnipresent in both water and on substrate. Good bacteria and bad bacteria live in/on both.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Okay so I've been reading through this thread and I have to say that I firmly believe that your filter isn't the source of your problems. Why? Because I own the same exact filter and use the same exact cartridges.

Here's the kicker: I leave my cartridges in on average at least 5-6 months at a time. Then I might swap one out. I've only cleaned that filter once ever. Well that's not true i just make sure the intake tube and impeller aren't clogged with gunk.

I never worry about the carbon. If carbon really caused issues NO ONE would ever use it. Not even the pet stores. Think about it, you've answered your own question practically. Your tank is clear and pristine and all your other fish are healthy except the moor. Well then I would QT the moor until you can figure out what is ailing him.

Also I wanted to add that you can expand your BB in that filter by dropping media into the bottom of the box. So if you emptied the carbon from the floss you could stuff the floss with media and/or fill in the bottom.

Personally I don't mind the carbon. Doesn't affect my tank at all.

Hello, Dark; thanks for chiming in, specifically, because I realize you have the same model filter as I do...and thanks for providing the pictures...

I understand what you're saying with regard to these Aqueons and their cartridge media; perhaps it is indeed going in the direction of my Moor's "symptoms" being caused by something else entirely, which I suppose I can begin a separate thread on in the Coldwater or Sick Fish sections. The strange thing is, she does not appear to be sickened by these cysts, nor bothered by them; she continues to eat and swim normally, and they go away as quickly as they appear...perhaps I should start considering the breeding angle...

Anyway, with regard to your Aqueon cartridges, let's talk about what YOU do with them -- I see how one of them in your pics is filthy and the other white and clean (which is the way my two look right now); is that because you "stagger" them as well? If I decide to leave the cartridges in there for lengths of time, is it okay to continue rinsing them off in removed tank water like I do with the AquaClear sponge media? How long should I wait before I REPLACE the cartridges -- even in a "staggered" manner (that is, one at a time to reduce mini cycle possibility) -- or can they be used indefinitely, even though the carbon is fully exhausted, until they're ready to physically and literally fall apart (the floss pads)?

Thanks for your continued assistance...

 

[Mebbid]

I just wanted to get some idea of whether or not exhausted carbon could introduce pathogens into a water column and cause cysts or tumors on scales...

For the carbon to leech something into your tank it will have had to be present in the tank in the first place. If you are having an infection from something, it's root cause won't be the carbon.

 

[Darkseid76]

Hello, Dark; thanks for chiming in, specifically, because I realize you have the same model filter as I do...and thanks for providing the pictures...

I understand what you're saying with regard to these Aqueons and their cartridge media; perhaps it is indeed going in the direction of my Moor's "symptoms" being caused by something else entirely, which I suppose I can begin a separate thread on in the Coldwater or Sick Fish sections. The strange thing is, she does not appear to be sickened by these cysts, nor bothered by them; she continues to eat and swim normally, and they go away as quickly as they appear...perhaps I should start considering the breeding angle...

Anyway, with regard to your Aqueon cartridges, let's talk about what YOU do with them -- I see how one of them in your pics is filthy and the other white and clean (which is the way my two look right now); is that because you "stagger" them as well? If I decide to leave the cartridges in there for lengths of time, is it okay to continue rinsing them off in removed tank water like I do with the AquaClear sponge media? How long should I wait before I REPLACE the cartridges -- even in a "staggered" manner (that is, one at a time to reduce mini cycle possibility) -- or can they be used indefinitely, even though the carbon is fully exhausted, until they're ready to physically and literally fall apart (the floss pads)?

Thanks for your continued assistance...

Yes I do stagger them. I happened to have done that a week or two before that picture. One of the problems I had was before I learned to start covering my intake tubes I actually had a significant amount of tiny snails and shrimplets actually living inside my filter box lol

Now if my inverts were living with no problems right on the pads mind you, then I can't believe that those cartridges will ever cause a problem.

Anyways I don't have a "set" replacement schedule. It's on a by eye basis. If i feel the cartridge is worn out then I'll replace it. I also run an Aquaclear so I don't worry about mini cycles. Until recently I was running carbon in that one too. I decided to go with a 2nd biomax insert in that one. I got that idea from another member.

Truthfully I think one of the few things us as hobbyists agree on the most is weekly water changes. And even that amount is debateable.

Just find a schedule that is comfortable to you. There is no need to follow manufacturer instructions, pertaining to cartridge replacement. As long as the parts are functioning your filter will take care of itself.

When I moved I kept all my filter media in old tank water. I also kept the blue pieces in old water also. I completely changed my substrate and refilled the tank. My new tank water cycled in 3 days!!

So I hope my experiences ease your mind somewhat and you can direct your energies into finding out what you can do to help your fish.

 

[pankelephant]

Yes, but if you think about it, the fish are swimming around in that bag water, and have plenty of it on them and in them when they are transferred to a new tank. Keeping in mind that pathogens are mostly microscopic, it doesn't take much to move them around, so unless we are literally sterilizing the fish when they come in, it's a moot point to not add bag water for that particular reason.

This cracks me up. I'm just imagining drying off your fish so no old water gets in your tank.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

For the carbon to leech something into your tank it will have had to be present in the tank in the first place. If you are having an infection from something, it's root cause won't be the carbon.

What was being suggested by members on the Koko's Goldfish forum was that infectious pathogens can be CAUSED specifically by -- and grow on -- exhausted carbon and that's how they would be introduced to the tank...

 

[Mebbid]

What was being suggested by members on the Koko's Goldfish forum was that infectious pathogens can be CAUSED specifically by -- and grow on -- exhausted carbon and that's how they would be introduced to the tank...

Yeah, I understand that. But for infectious bacteria to grow on the carbon it would have to first be introduced to the aquarium. After that any bacteria that would grow on the exhausted carbon are just as likely to grow on any surface of the entire tank. Microbes aren't going to specifically select carbon as their source to grow on, they will grow wherever they land.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Yeah, I understand that. But for infectious bacteria to grow on the carbon it would have to first be introduced to the aquarium. After that any bacteria that would grow on the exhausted carbon are just as likely to grow on any surface of the entire tank. Microbes aren't going to specifically select carbon as their source to grow on, they will grow wherever they land.

Here's what one of the "senior moderators" from KokosGoldfish.com was absolutely certain on with regard to the exhausted carbon issue; this has been clipped verbatim from a conversation I had with him on there...no changes or alterations to the context have been attempted:

1. Were it not for the carbon, the rest of the media is just like the DIYs, you can rinse it and reuse it until it falls apart.

2. I am not one to disregard carbon's importance and use. However, it's really not necessary. Unlike some myths that get passed around, "loaded" carbons do not release back to the water what they once held. Carbon however, can contribute to the increase of phosphates in the water, and that will depend on the brand. Some will have more than others.

In statement #2, he is suggesting that phosphates can be introduced into the water column via exhausted carbon...

3. The real problem is that Aeromonas, a group of pathogenic bacteria, love to colonize in these carbon particles. The longer you leave them there, the more these will grow and can attack your tank. Aeromonas' effects on goldfish include fin problems, ulcers, and wen ulcers.

Here, in statement #3, is where he is attempting to suggest that these "Aeromonas" are colonizing in the carbon and that if left too long, can "attack" the tank -- he goes on to describe effects on goldfish, one of which my Moor seems to be exhibiting, hence my overall concern here...

He cited some research on two different sites to support this, but the links apparently expired or were "broken"/corrupt...

However, he went on to say this about one of the points made in this research:

Point 3 is the reason why I vehemently oppose the use of carbon long term. It's not necessary. It's expensive, AND it can bring disease to your tank.

Now, this was the second round of communication with him:

What I am suggesting is to dispense with carbon entirely. I have not found any convincing arguments as to why they need to be there. From the stand point of having replace them often (every month according to the companies suggestions), to them taking up valuable real estate that could be occupied by other media, to the fact that they can harbor pathogens, to the fact they can leech phosphates all argue against using carbon.

Again, he is suggesting, via this statement in red, that something is most likely being leached back into my tank in the form of "pathogens"...

The answer to your question is that no one knows quite when they are exhausted for your system, unless you test it. The companies suggest 1-2 months (depending on the product and the company), but that's really an estimate, and I'm not even sure how good that is.

This above statement is merely in response to something I was asking about exhaustion rate; not really related to anything with regard to the pathogen angle...

Now -- the below was the third round of communications I had with this individual:

There are many scientific articles showing about Aeromonas living on the carbon particles, as well as the fact that it leeches phosphates, which are also undesirables in the tank.

Again -- he seems extremely certain from this red-outlined statement above that scientific backing suggests these Aeromonas WILL live on carbon particles and WILL attack things in the tank...

Could those bumps/cysts be bacterial? Could they be from carbon? Probably. Why can't I say for certain? Because I don't have anyway of having you test for the presence of Aeromonas there, but the symptoms are consistent with Aeromonas driven diseases. More than that, and we would require some microbiology work.

Here, he's blatantly saying he believes it's probable my Moor is exhibiting these symptoms directly because of the exhausted carbon and the "pathogens" within...

Your last question brings to mind another reason why cartridges are such a terrible idea. Every time you do this, you remove beneficial bacteria, since you are throwing the cartridge away. So, it is the clicheic throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Yes, replace them if you suspect that it's causing you problems. Switch to media that have no carbon.

With regard to his first statement in the dual paragraphs above, I explained to him that with these Aqueon cartridges, beneficial bacteria is not always necessarily "thrown away" by the disposal of the old cartridges because of the "bio grids" these filters come with and which are supposed to house at least more of the bacteria than what's on the floss pads...

But his second statement there suggesting I swap out the cartridge(s) is what concerned me and thus lead me to swapping out one of them the other day for a new one...

What do make of his analysis here?

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Yes I do stagger them. I happened to have done that a week or two before that picture. One of the problems I had was before I learned to start covering my intake tubes I actually had a significant amount of tiny snails and shrimplets actually living inside my filter box lol

Now if my inverts were living with no problems right on the pads mind you, then I can't believe that those cartridges will ever cause a problem.

Anyways I don't have a "set" replacement schedule. It's on a by eye basis. If i feel the cartridge is worn out then I'll replace it. I also run an Aquaclear so I don't worry about mini cycles. Until recently I was running carbon in that one too. I decided to go with a 2nd biomax insert in that one. I got that idea from another member.

Truthfully I think one of the few things us as hobbyists agree on the most is weekly water changes. And even that amount is debateable.

Just find a schedule that is comfortable to you. There is no need to follow manufacturer instructions, pertaining to cartridge replacement. As long as the parts are functioning your filter will take care of itself.

When I moved I kept all my filter media in old tank water. I also kept the blue pieces in old water also. I completely changed my substrate and refilled the tank. My new tank water cycled in 3 days!!

So I hope my experiences ease your mind somewhat and you can direct your energies into finding out what you can do to help your fish.

But can you attest to removing these Aqueon cartridges during occasional routine maintenance when it's believed that they may be getting dirty, and simply dunking and rinsing them in removed tank water, using them nearly indefinitely even though the carbon is long exhausted, as you would, say, the media in an AquaClear?

 

[HUKIT]

Here's what one of the "senior moderators" from KokosGoldfish.com ]:

Well the since he's a "senior moderator" then it must be true, especially since they're not allowed to put anything on the Internet thats's not true...I read that on the Internet.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Well the since he's a "senior moderator" then it must be true, especially since they're not allowed to put anything on the Internet that not true...I read that on the Internet.

I'm not saying or implying that -- thus the bit of "sarcasm" by using the quotes around his "title"...

Additionally, there's no need to provide cruel, somewhat hurtful imagery depicting horses and cows being beaten with regard to this subject -- if you don't care for the material being discussed, simply don't participate. I was directing my commentary at another forum member...

 

[Darkseid76]

They carbon becomes basically just another surface for BB to grow on. It's harmless IMO.

Now you can either use testimony from actual users with experience or you can still let the fear monger on the other forum influence your eventual course of action.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

They carbon becomes basically just another surface for BB to grow on. It's harmless IMO.

Now you can either use testimony from actual users with experience or you can still let the fear monger on the other forum influence your eventual course of action.

I was very concerned with what he stated because it seemed to be backed up with documentation on at least two different sites -- that being said, can you at least answer the questions about the cartridges I asked you in the post a couple of posts above?

You could actually LEAVE these Aqueon cartridges in and just let them run without fear that the carbon is exhausted after a period of time, just merely rinsing them like any other media in removed tank water?

 

[Sharpchick]

I was very concerned with what he stated because it seemed to be backed up with documentation on at least two different sites -- that being said, can you at least answer the questions about the cartridges I asked you in the post a couple of posts above?

You could actually LEAVE these Aqueon cartridges in and just let them run without fear that the carbon is exhausted after a period of time, just merely rinsing them like any other media in removed tank water?

I think everyone has already answered that.

Yes, leave the cartridges in if you like. And if you do, then when you clean them - as you have already stated several times - rinse them in tank water. Do that for any media you handle when you service a filter.

Unless I've missed something really significant, there's really not anything else to say about this, is there?

 

[aqua_chem]

I feel like we're going in circles.


Aeronomas do live on carbon.

Aeronomas have been documented living on released carbon particles.

And I just found an article that suggested that GAC in water filters might increase Aeronomas.

But the research is being taken out of context. The study was looking at the effects of filters on drinking water. These bacteria are present in water in fairly significant amounts, especially polluted water (like aquariums). These bacteria build up to large numbers on carbon, but so do all other forms of bacteria. Additionally, the probably build up to comparable levels on filter floss and aquarium gravel as well. This species is naturally present in aquatic ecosystems, and is even present in the gut of fish. Additionally, this species of bacteria is an opportunistic pathogen; it requires that the host be in a weakened state to be pathogenic.


I've spent a decent portion of my time up to my ears in scientific research, both as a reader and an author, so I feel that I am somewhat qualified to make the following statement: based on the literature I've read so far, this guy's claims are not supported by the available information. That being said, I don't have time right now to chase down every paper on the subject, so there might be something that I haven't seen yet. Maybe next week.



The phosphate thing's true though, although the importance is likely overemphasized by the aquarium community in general.