I'm a GBR killer!

[JDogg]

i do not know what i am doing wrong... i kept a pair of GBR for 6 months no problem...they even tried once to spawn!

then all of a sudden they died off and i have killed off 3 females and 3 males trying to replace them!

params are fine...

Ammonia and nitrate are 0
NO3 = 25 ppm
PO4 = 2 ppm
PH = 6.8 (down from 8.0 due to CO2 injection)

tank is heavily planted...

other tank inhabitants (this is my 75 gallon)

3 Angles: Pterophyllum scalare
2 Bolivian Rams: Microgeophagus altispinosa
3 "Orange Flash" Cockatoo Cichlids: Apistogramma cacatuoides
7 Rummy-nosed Tetra: Hemigrammus rhodostomus
6 Cardinal Tetra: Paracheirodon axelrodi
5 Julii Cory: Corydoras julii
2 Rubberlip pleco: Chaetostoma thomsoni
3 Oto: Otocinclus mariae
-Invertabrates
Malaysian Trumpet Snails: Melanoides tuberculata
Rams Horn Snail: Planorbis corneus

none of the dead show any sign of disease, but they dies with in 24-48 hours of introduction to tank.

i always introduce new fish slowly using the dip method (but do not have a QT tank)

i am wondering if either my pair of Bolivians or Cockatoos are killing them off..i never notice territorial disputes an the tank is certainly big enough i would think. but since it is heavily planted i am not 100% sure of what is going on in the undergrowth.

any ideas anyone i would really love another pair of GBR but i do not want to try again until i can figure out what is happening

 

[Jchillin]

I highly suspect the things that were posted in the GBR thread awhile back are the reason JD, certainly nothing you did (or didn't do) is responsible. It is a shame IMO that things haven't improved in over two years since I started that thread.

 

[JDogg]

I highly suspect the things that were posted in the GBR thread awhile back are the reason JD, certainly nothing you did (or didn't do) is responsible. It is a shame IMO that things haven't improved in over two years since I started that thread.

is THISthe thread you are refering to? i have not read though it all yet.

i do not feel that i have done anything wrong really, but it is very frustrating. as far as i know my tank should be an "ideal" habitate for them. the apistos have a terretory on one end, the bolivians have the other... they interact often, and do so peacefully, the same was true with my original GBR pair. perhaps i need to try and find a local breeder and see if there stock is healthier then the mass produced lfs stock :?. (which go for $11.99 around here)

 

[WaterPond]

that sucks man!

Anyways, dont feel bad, I had a rough go starting out with GBRs, too bud you are starting OVER. I just takes a clean tank, and healthy fish. Sorry for your loss too

Good luck

 

[Jchillin]

Yeah, that is the thread. It brings to light the issues most aquarists encounter with GBR's. I had thought you had seen it.

The simple fact is, if you can keep apistos (who are more sensitive to water parameters than GBR's), there is no reason to suffer premature GBR demise in the same tank.

 

[JDogg]

Yeah, that is the thread. It brings to light the issues most aquarists encounter with GBR's. I had thought you had seen it.

it did look familiar.

The simple fact is, if you can keep apistos (who are more sensitive to water parameters than GBR's), there is no reason to suffer premature GBR demise in the same tank.

but i do

 

[crazyred]

IMO, it's all about where the GBR's are from. If they came from the LFS then it's most likely that they are the mass bred kind that wholesalers get from the Far East. Those rams are very weak indeed since most of them are juiced up on hormones so they 'color up' quicker. Your best bet is to get some from Aquabid. I got mine there from RKeiger (I think) and I have had them forever, with several very successful spawns and babies in a grow out tank. Stay away from store bought GBR's.

 

[JDogg]

IMO, it's all about where the GBR's are from. If they came from the LFS then it's most likely that they are the mass bred kind that wholesalers get from the Far East. Those rams are very weak indeed since most of them are juiced up on hormones so they 'color up' quicker. Your best bet is to get some from Aquabid. I got mine there from RKeiger (I think) and I have had them forever, with several very successful spawns and babies in a grow out tank. Stay away from store bought GBR's.

i think once spring comes i am going to have to learn to use aquabid i need GBR and female apistos :?

 

[crazyred]

I live at Aquabid!!! I get nearly everything interesting there. All my Apistos and rams came from there. Once you get past the shipping cost it's really the best way to go. I don't get anything good at my LFS's down here and the healthiest fish are usually there, so I just eat the shipping cost....I could have spent more just replacing the rams that I bought at my LFS everytime they died.

 

[severum mama]

The simple fact is, if you can keep apistos (who are more sensitive to water parameters than GBR's), there is no reason to suffer premature GBR demise in the same tank.

I agree, yet I have the same problem. I've tried to keep GBRs in the past myself, but haven't had much luck. But my a. steindachneri are thriving! I'm going to go with the "mass production" theory, as many of you have. The apistos, IME, aren't mass bred the way GBRs are. In fact, when I put in a special order with my former LFS (before the move) for ANY apisto species they could get, it was over 2 years before I actually got mine! As many of you know, I work at a LFS now and I'm in charge of ordering all FW, as well as maintaining all FW tanks. I've ordered many GBRs, and even the ones that look great when they come in are dead within the month. I even had a pair spawn in the bag on the way to the store once, and they were dead within the week. So Jdogg- I can definitely sympathize! I'm sure there is nothing you did wrong. I'm with Melissa on this one; Aquabid may be the way to go.

 

[JDogg]

this morning i found my 2.5 inch rubber-lip pleco dead i know it is probabaly unrelated but i have can not help but wonder if the GBR are my "canary in the mine"

 

[crazyred]

If your water params are good, chances are, it was unrelated. My canaries are two remaining rummy nose tetras. I've had 2 male A. trifasciata die in the last couple of days (one had popeye, the other....who knows...no symptoms) and one of my Von Rio tetras had some weird crazy disease and I had to euthanize hime (he looked awful...combo popeye/dropsy/and some weird whitish-clear egg looking things). Nothing else was sick. Rams, angels Queen Arabesque and all other tetras are fine.

There are numerous reason for fish death...as long as all your numbers look good, it's probably just coincidence. Sorry about you pleco....I know it's hard.

 

[BrianNY]

In reading this thread I just can't help but think that some of the params aren't being accounted for. What I'm about to say is more opinion than knowledge but it's based on my experience with discus. Both discus and GBRs come from extremely soft water. It's at least probable that many of their tolerances are similar. I therefore suspect that ideal discus water would also be ideal for GBRs.

Ideal water is very clean. By clean I mean very low in dissolved organic compounds. The only way to remove these is by pwcs. I'd like to see some of you GBR keepers conduct an experiment with pwcs. Since a pair could easily be kept in a 10g changing 50% daily would be almost no work assuming you've got a python. I'd be very curious to see how the fish fare given so much fresh water.

 

[JDogg]

if i had an empty 10 i might just try that.

that does not take into account the 6 months i kept the original pair without a problem...with the same cleaning regiment...:?

 

[crazyred]

That clean water thing might be something to consider, but I think that would apply to more of the wild caught and sensitive specimens than anything.

I'm not saying I have Old Tank Syndrome or anything, but I've been know to skip a PWC or two and have not noticed any problems with my rams.....they still breed like clockwork and have awesome color. They are healthy as horses. I think, the further generationally you remove a specimen (discus, rams, etc.) from what they're 'used to' in the wild, the less this becomes a factor in home aquaria. I say this because my rams are breeding and hatching their spawns regularly in HARD water (300 ppm) with a pH of 7.2. They're not 'supposed' to do this. So are my Apistos and angels......these are 'supposed' to be soft, acidic water fish, but they have been bred for so many generations by hobbyists that they probably wouldn't recognize their native water params if they were tossed back into tomorrow......I'm tempted to say that there are discus out there just like that as well, but I'm no discus expert.

I'm still going to go with weak, store bought rams imported from mass breeding farms in Asia....seems to be a common thread almost everywhere I look. Severum mama's experience working at the LFS seems to back it up.

 

[JDogg]

That clean water thing might be something to consider, but I think that would apply to more of the wild caught and sensitive specimens than anything.

I'm not saying I have Old Tank Syndrome or anything, but I've been know to skip a PWC or two and have not noticed any problems with my rams.....they still breed like clockwork and have awesome color. They are healthy as horses. I think, the further generationally you remove a specimen (discus, rams, etc.) from what they're 'used to' in the wild, the less this becomes a factor in home aquaria. I say this because my rams are breeding and hatching their spawns regularly in HARD water (300 ppm) with a pH of 7.2. They're not 'supposed' to do this. So are my Apistos and angels......these are 'supposed' to be soft, acidic water fish, but they have been bred for so many generations by hobbyists that they probably wouldn't recognize their native water params if they were tossed back into tomorrow......I'm tempted to say that there are discus out there just like that as well, but I'm no discus expert.

I'm still going to go with weak, store bought rams imported from mass breeding farms in Asia....seems to be a common thread almost everywhere I look. Severum mama's experience working at the LFS seems to back it up.

my LFS sells Discus that he clames are localy breed at a ph of 8.0 and kh of 10 degrees.

 

[crazyred]

That would not surprise me at all. The reason my angels have done so well and spawned with a hatching is because the LFS where I got said that they always get their angels from a local breeder. They said that there is a guy in town that breeds and raises angels specifically for their fish store.......too bad their rams aren't like that. Maybe I could change that, but I'm picky about where my rams go, and I wouldn't be too happy if the LFS sold one of my babies to someone with a bowl. 8O

 

[MoeRock]

That clean water thing might be something to consider, but I think that would apply to more of the wild caught and sensitive specimens than anything.

I'm not saying I have Old Tank Syndrome or anything, but I've been know to skip a PWC or two and have not noticed any problems with my rams.....they still breed like clockwork and have awesome color. They are healthy as horses. I think, the further generationally you remove a specimen (discus, rams, etc.) from what they're 'used to' in the wild, the less this becomes a factor in home aquaria. I say this because my rams are breeding and hatching their spawns regularly in HARD water (300 ppm) with a pH of 7.2. They're not 'supposed' to do this. So are my Apistos and angels......these are 'supposed' to be soft, acidic water fish, but they have been bred for so many generations by hobbyists that they probably wouldn't recognize their native water params if they were tossed back into tomorrow......I'm tempted to say that there are discus out there just like that as well, but I'm no discus expert.

I'm still going to go with weak, store bought rams imported from mass breeding farms in Asia....seems to be a common thread almost everywhere I look. Severum mama's experience working at the LFS seems to back it up.

my LFS sells Discus that he clames are localy breed at a ph of 8.0 and kh of 10 degrees.

This looks like a quantum physics leap.

Great job Jdogg!

 

[severum mama]

I'm tempted to say that there are discus out there just like that as well, but I'm no discus expert.

my LFS sells Discus that he clames are localy breed at a ph of 8.0 and kh of 10 degrees.

I'm certainly no discus expert either, but I have to just throw in my 2 cents regarding the discus I recently acquired. My boss ordered them from a breeder (I don't know which one), and we kept them in tap water in the store. Our water here comes out of the tap at pH 8.0 (but other than that is great quality IMO). We acclimated them to tap water at the store, and they didn't really even stress- they began eating that day. When they were given to me a couple months later, I just decided to acclimate them to tap water again, and they acclimated readily with no issues again. I doubt that they will ever spawn, which is fine since I don't really want to breed them, but I once again must agree that fish that are several generations removed from WC can adapt to varying water conditions. My apisto steindachneri are also kept in tap water, and have nearly tripled in size since I bought them in June.

 

[BrianNY]

The thing is I'm not talking about hard water. I'm talking about DOCs. Organic compounds contribute to a multitude of bacterial infections. It's more about the biology and immune system than it is about acclimation.

I can keep discus in water as high as 400ppm. That doesn't phase them as they adjust to it. I begin to have problems if I skip too many pwcs. It's the DOCs in the water column that brings on stress. I think it might be the same for GBRs.

This could be especially true in a planted tank. Any dead plant matter will elevate the DOCs. JMO