Is Aquarium Salt Needed?

[BBradbury]

Using Salt

I'm gonna start using salt, so I'll get back to y'all in a couple weeks with my opinion about salt.

Hello Lt...

If you're not treating your tank for parasites, then keep the amount you use to a teaspoon for every 5 gallons of your water change water. This amount will benefit your fish and most fish pathogens don't tolerate traces of aquarium salt in the tank water.

If you keep the doses low, your plants will be fine. I've used a little standard aquarium salt in my large tanks for several years and I believe my fish are much healthier as a result.

B

 

[vanimal]

Hello Lt...

If you're not treating your tank for parasites, then keep the amount you use to a teaspoon for every 5 gallons of your water change water. This amount will benefit your fish and most fish pathogens don't tolerate traces of aquarium salt in the tank water.

If you keep the doses low, your plants will be fine. I've used a little standard aquarium salt in my large tanks for several years and I believe my fish are much healthier as a result.

B

Agreed. That's what I do or I add 1 teaspoon to every 10 gallons.

 

[Lt.]

I was thinking 1/10 (teaspoon/gallon) ratio that way if I don't risk shocking them, I play it safe, and I have plenty of room to be able to add more if they do catch something however unlikely it is. They do good, maybe I'll up it in a few weeks/months. And i don't currently have live plants.

 

[MrPillow]

Does anyone have LC50 or LD50 data for sodium chloride toxicity to any of the pathogens being discussed here? Especially at the dosage levels being discussed?

 

[vanimal]

I was thinking 1/10 (teaspoon/gallon) ratio that way if I don't risk shocking them, I play it safe, and I have plenty of room to be able to add more if they do catch something however unlikely it is. They do good, maybe I'll up it in a few weeks/months. And i don't currently have live plants.

I think that's the best way to go unless your fish get sick. Then add more.

 

[Lt.]

I think that's the best way to go unless your fish get sick. Then add more.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

 

[jetajockey]

Does anyone have LC50 or LD50 data for sodium chloride toxicity to any of the pathogens being discussed here? Especially at the dosage levels being discussed?

I wouldn't waste your time at this point. This thread has obviously reached an impasse, and actual evidence is being thrown by the wayside.

It's unfortunate that so many people still perpetuate a long outdated mythology, I just hope that people don't all start going back to UGF's and using goldfish as 'cycle' fish just to be flushed down the toilet after the water get's "seasoned".

If most pathogens cannot tolerate a 'trace' of salt then it doesn't explain the myriad of ailments that LFS still endure in spite of the salt use. As mentioned earlier in the thread and in plenty of scientific journals, a certain concentration of salt needs to be present before various pathogens get affected. This amount varies from type to type and species to species, even, so don't expect a spoonful of salt to keep the bad bugs away, so to speak.

If we aren't going to apply science then we should probably forego testing our tanks as well since actual data isn't important.

To those still reading the thread, whether you agree with salt use or not, I ask to at least attempt to do a little research to be better informed on the subject, since it's one of the purposes of this forum.

Here are some articles that explain simply why the salt tonic idea is outdated and inaccurate. I can link some scientific journals also if needed, but they are so dry that I don't think most people would bother clicking the link let alone wading through them.

http://skepticalaquarist.com/salt-magic

The Salt of the Earth, the Salt from the Sea . . Using salt in a freshwater aquarium

Now for the biggie, urban myth #3 (with subsections a, b, c, d, and e - for my convenience): "You should always add x amount of salt to your tank water." The quantity "x" can vary with the poster and the local mythology, but generally is on the order of one tablespoon per five gallons. Note: this advice may be given with no questions asked about water hardness, nature of the fish kept, presence or absence of live plants, or actual water purpose or aim of the tank. This is presented as one of the great revealed truths about captive fish husbandry, universal, rarely if ever qualified or restricted, and eminently suitable for carving in stone over the door of your fish room. It slices, it dices, it chops, and your fish will live happily forever and ever. If you detect a trace of sarcasm, you begin to understand my attitude toward such edicts.

 

[PolyptRus]

Just so you know the way they process table salt and the way they process aquarium salts is what sets them apart the process of table salt has a lot of additives and chemicals to treat it such as bleach and chlorine these chemicals used for everyday table salts are not put into or used to process aquarium salts, that is why table salt and aquarium salt cannot be labeled as the same thing because they really are not, why do you think the salt we use on our food is bad for us to use its because of what they do to it before they package it for sale, aquarium salt gets a different treatment I'd much rather eat aquarium salt honestly because its probably healthier than the salt from the grocery store. But just like us it's not healthy to eat a lot of salt and its not healthy for fish to have a lot of salt in there system either small amounts are healthy for both humans and nature that includes fish. The only real reason it wouldn't be beneficial to use salts in a tank is if the salt you are using has been treated with bleach and chlorines but if they are pure salts than it can be beneficial to a tank just as it would be if we ate only pure salts instead of chemically processed table salts every day. All animals need salt in there systems many animals in the wild travel miles to find salt plains, the salt they find is pure and beneficial to there system just as it would be to add small amounts of pure salts to fish tanks. But if we were to replace there pure salts with table salts we use they would become unhealthy because table salts have been processed from there pure state and it becomes unhealthy for any animal human or fish as long as the salt is pure it can have a beneficial effect on all animals, humans, and even fish.

 

[...joey...]

I wouldn't waste your time at this point. This thread has obviously reached an impasse, and actual evidence is being thrown by the wayside.

It's unfortunate that so many people still perpetuate a long outdated mythology, I just hope that people don't all start going back to UGF's and using goldfish as 'cycle' fish just to be flushed down the toilet after the water get's "seasoned".

If most pathogens cannot tolerate a 'trace' of salt then it doesn't explain the myriad of ailments that LFS still endure in spite of the salt use. As mentioned earlier in the thread and in plenty of scientific journals, a certain concentration of salt needs to be present before various pathogens get affected. This amount varies from type to type and species to species, even, so don't expect a spoonful of salt to keep the bad bugs away, so to speak.

If we aren't going to apply science then we should probably forego testing our tanks as well since actual data isn't important.

To those still reading the thread, whether you agree with salt use or not, I ask to at least attempt to do a little research to be better informed on the subject, since it's one of the purposes of this forum.

Here are some articles that explain simply why the salt tonic idea is outdated and inaccurate. I can link some scientific journals also if needed, but they are so dry that I don't think most people would bother clicking the link let alone wading through them.

http://skepticalaquarist.com/salt-magic

The Salt of the Earth, the Salt from the Sea . . Using salt in a freshwater aquarium

That would be a great ending to this thread! Well said but some how I don't think it's going to end there some people don't want to know the facts!

 

[jetajockey]

Here's an article in PFK magazine about salt use for anyone interested. It's a good read and explains a lot about salt use to treat disease/parasites as well.


Frequently asked questions on using salt | Features | Practical Fishkeeping

An excerpt relating to the topic at hand.

Leading fish vet Chris Walster says: "Freshwater fish should be kept in freshwater, not any other.

"We have no idea of what effect placing freshwater fish in salted water has from a welfare perspective. We know that if we place freshwater fish in seawater that they will die sooner or later. We simply do not know, even at a low level of salt, whether it irritates the eyes or gills, etc.

"When we swim in the sea, the salt irritates our eyes. Is it the same for freshwater fish? Are there any other unknown effects which occur weeks, months or years later?"

Fish health expert Dr Peter Burgess says he certainly doesn't advocate salt for permanent use: "Unless the species has a natural requirement for salt, then we should not add salt to an aquarium (or pond).

"Tonic salt for freshwater fish is a bit like aspirin for humans: both medicines have many beneficial uses, but neither should be administered routinely just for the sake of it. Bear in mind that most tropical community tanks will contain salt-sensitive species, such as catfishes.

"Salt can be used as a supportive for salt-tolerant species, for example if the fish have severe ulcers or other major skin breaches that can place a burden on the osmoregulatory system. But healthy, unstressed fish do not need this support. Never use salt to compensate for bad fishkeeping!"

 

[aqua_chem]

OK, there are several different things that desperately need to be addressed here.

In medicine, we have three major classifications of medicine, two of which are being used interchangeably here. The first, prophylactic medicine, is a term used to describe a treatment that prevents illness or keeps an already present illness from advancing. The second, curative medicine, is used to treat an already established disease. In the case of the salt debate, I don't think anyone thinks that salt isn't effective against ich. However, is it a prophylactic?

Lets look at the mechanism of how salt kills things. As MrPillow already illustrate, life in freshwater for pretty much all organisms is a constant fight against the environment to maintain their internal conditions. Anything that rapidly alters the environment leads to osmotic stress in the fish. While fish can adapt to new osmotic environments, doing so is energetically costly and a stressor on the fish. That being said, smaller organisms such as ich parasites are much less able to content with large TDS shifts, and as a result it can be used as a weapon against ich and other parasites.

Point: Salt works because it stresses the parasites more than it stresses the fish

We take advantage of this relationship all the time in medicine. In fact, pretty much everything you tank for any medical maladitiy will eventually make you sick if you continue to take it over an extended period of time. The most analogous situations that I can think of off the top of my head is chemotherapy and antibiotics. With chemo, you are usually hitting every single cell in the body (hence why hair loss is common), but it disproportionately affects cancer cells and is therefore therapeutically used. Sound familiar? It's the exact same logic used to explain why salt works.

Fortunately, the analogy is not exhausted there. Using a reduced salt dosage without ich present is analogous to using a reduced chemotherapy dosage when no cancer is present. There are major flaws with that idea. One, with no cancer present, the only thing affected is your cells. Will this kill you? No, probably not at reduced doses, but there will definitely continue to be negative side effects. Two: if you were to get cancer, it would have already be immune to this chemotherapy. It is reasonable to expect that given a prolonged exposure to saline environments, ich or other parasites would adapt to be much, much more salt tolerant. Then when ich (or some other native parasite) decides to rear its ugly head, salt will be dramatically less effective. We're already seeing this in the medical world with a number of antibiotic resistant diseases due to the bugs involved evolving when subjected to antibiotic excessively. Third is the idea of effective dose. Many medications need to be above a certain concentration to be effective. By reducing the dosage, you'll still be affective all the cells in your body, but the concentration might not be sufficient to be therapeutic, but enough to provide the environmental pressures to make cancer immune to the chemo. Same thing happens with non-therapeutic levels or salt. In all likelihood, the dosages previously described are below the therapeutic levels, so not actively killing ich, but providing the environmental pressures necessary to produce the aforementioned outcomes.

 

[Elude82]

And I thought it was over!!!!!! Either way, i have been keeping up with this post, and think its funny how even when confronted with scientific data: everything broken down to the simplest of science, people still turn their cheek and ignore facts! I don't believe salt in a FRESH water tank deters parasites ICH or any other disease! I know I will catch crap for this, and just my opinion, also I own saltwater only tanks! I know there are differences between fresh and saltwater tanks, fish, water parameters, and bacteria and parasites, but if salt water is a method of preventing these things.... Then why are saltwater fish, that live in SALTWATER, able to get ICH????? Hmmmm?!?!? Sounds like salt added in a FRESHWATER tank for prevention is a myth! but once again yes I know the difference between the two, also I know us saltwater people use fresh water dips to get off parasites from our fish, because the freshwater makes the parasites latch off, but I am pretty certain freshwater people don't do the opposite. And yes there is a difference between table salt and aquarium salt! Yes, both are sodium, but they DO differ in what additives are in them! Let me know the next time someone sets up a saltwater tank, and decides to use table salt instead!!! Lol I don't know everything about aquarium life, but I think common sense should win this debate!

 

[Elude82]

Ok, after reading aqua Chemi post I agree with him! Lol he makes sense!

 

[Lt.]

Well I'd say the debate over the preventative abilities if salt is over with ich, but back to what I think was a neglected topic, does the salt help with the colors of the fish, and just because it doesn't help ich, what about other ailments? And does it do anything for algae?

 

[aqua_chem]

Just so you know the way they process table salt and the way they process aquarium salts is what sets them apart the process of table salt has a lot of additives and chemicals to treat it such as bleach and chlorine these chemicals used for everyday table salts are not put into or used to process aquarium salts, that is why table salt and aquarium salt cannot be labeled as the same thing because they really are not, why do you think the salt we use on our food is bad for us to use its because of what they do to it before they package it for sale, aquarium salt gets a different treatment I'd much rather eat aquarium salt honestly because its probably healthier than the salt from the grocery store. But just like us it's not healthy to eat a lot of salt and its not healthy for fish to have a lot of salt in there system either small amounts are healthy for both humans and nature that includes fish. The only real reason it wouldn't be beneficial to use salts in a tank is if the salt you are using has been treated with bleach and chlorines but if they are pure salts than it can be beneficial to a tank just as it would be if we ate only pure salts instead of chemically processed table salts every day. All animals need salt in there systems many animals in the wild travel miles to find salt plains, the salt they find is pure and beneficial to there system just as it would be to add small amounts of pure salts to fish tanks. But if we were to replace there pure salts with table salts we use they would become unhealthy because table salts have been processed from there pure state and it becomes unhealthy for any animal human or fish as long as the salt is pure it can have a beneficial effect on all animals, humans, and even fish.

Chemically speaking, table salt is the same as any other kind of salt (rock salt, kosher salt, aquarium salt) except that they added iodine added to it to prevent things caused by iodine deficiency, namely goiter and mental retardation. Additionally it has silicon dioxide added to it for texture and preservation purposes. Where do we know this chemical from? It's the major component of sand and glass, and is not toxic to fish or humans. Aside from those exceptions, table salt, kosher salt, rock salt, pickling salt, and aquarium salt (but notably not sea salt) are chemically identical. The texture and granule differences mainly come from the preparation process and possibly subsequent physical preparation (aka, the probably grind it up). Chemically speaking, the physical appearance of the salt is irrelevant.

Aquarium salt is labeled as such because by adding the "aquarium" label to just about anything, you can charge twice as much for it. The FDA nor any other regulatory agency particularly cares what you label aquarium salt with as long as you add "Not intended for human consumption" on it.

Finally, it is the sodium chloride (NaCl) in salt that has health side effects, not the additives. Eating salt effectively raises the blood's salinity. Salt 'attracts' water to reduce the salinity to normal levels, which results in water entering circulation. Because your circulatory tract is effectively constant volume, your blood pressure increases (hypertension), which is where the health related issues come from.

Also, the lack of periods in your posts makes it difficult to understand what you are trying to say. A little more attention to grammar would make discussing this with you immensely easier.

 

[aqua_chem]

Saltwater ich is another species of parasite altogether. It's not actually closely related to Ich, but apparently the name stuck due to similarity in appearance.

 

[DragonFish71]

Ok, I'm going to put this as nicely as I can.

A debate is good, healthy even, HOWEVER

If you can not produce fact to shore up your side of the debate, then you shouldn't be negating the other side when they produce facts. Rules of debate engagement.

And another thing,

If some of you don't start watching the tone of your answers, I will close down this thread.

 

[Lt.]

Hey, ain't dun wrong..........yet....]=~)




Joking, joking

 

[DragonFish71]

I actually read it in a books one which was titled fresh water aquariums for dummies which is a beginners book so you should know about this even if your a beginner. My boy friends parents have kept fish for over forty years and own a fish store aswell as breed fish they have always used salt in there tanks all fresh water and they highly recommended it to me because it keeps fish healthy and more colourful and as we know when a fish is really brightly coloured it is at good health.

So if they told you that you could have oscars and guppies together you'd believe them?

Why don't you read the articles that have been presented, articles based on scientific fact?

 

[absolutangel04]

I have not personally seen any evidence before that actually suggests that adding salt to a fw system is beneficial. I do not just mean this thread, I mean that in all the research I have ever done, I have never found any evidence that salt in aquariums as discussed in this context is helpful at all. Just saying that a given tank had salt and no disease is not evidence. I am sure that tank also had food and maintenance done it as well.
What good doe salt do for fish? Well, it makes them taste better.