Is Aquarium Salt Needed?

[DragonFish71]

using it often doesn't do any harm people have used it in there tanks regularly for years and had no problems so I think that justifies what I say about the salts and if they were so bad for fish than they wouldn't sell it in fish stores

Yes because a fish store would never sell you something bad, or give bad advice, or sell you something that you don't need.

 

[MrPillow]

Well, it makes them taste better.

Now that right there is some good science.

 

[DragonFish71]

Well tell your physiology to the people who have bred and sold fish for forty years because they'd tell you to think again.

Scientists VS non-scientists.

Who would you go to for surgery, a surgeon or some guy who hasn't had medical training trying to make quick money by saying he can take out the appendix for you?

 

[DragonFish71]

That is how it is beneficial. Also what about live bearers??

Live bearers started out in BW and were acclimated to FW. They still contain the organs needed to convert that salt into being useful, unlike some fish who don't have those organs.

I have platies in my BW tank, second generation born in there and they are happy.

Why?


Because waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the day, before some stupid human came along and caught them in the wild, started breeding them for the hobby, they were living in BW.

Not all fish can take salt, just as not all fish can take FW.

Do you have any idea what they do to BW gobies like the dragon or the knights?

They catch them, wild, in BW conditions, toss them, not acclimate them, but seriously toss them into a FW holding tank. Whoever survives gets put on the market.

 

[DragonFish71]

I agree with you. My plants and guppies are fine with small amounts of salt.

Um yeah well guppies are live bearers, of course they are doing fine with salt. They originate from BW areas.

And some plants can tolerate some salt, some can tolerate more than others. I have a planted BW tank.

So, did you have a point?

 

[vanimal]

Live bearers started out in BW and were acclimated to FW. They still contain the organs needed to convert that salt into being useful, unlike some fish who don't have those organs.

I have platies in my BW tank, second generation born in there and they are happy.

Why?

Because waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the day, before some stupid human came along and caught them in the wild, started breeding them for the hobby, they were living in BW.

Not all fish can take salt, just as not all fish can take FW.

Do you have any idea what they do to BW gobies like the dragon or the knights?

They catch them, wild, in BW conditions, toss them, not acclimate them, but seriously toss them into a FW holding tank. Whoever survives gets put on the market.

So all live bearers can go in fully brackish water??

 

[MrPillow]

Most livebearers can be found naturally in water of all salinities, from pure fresh to full marine. They are euryhaline and can osmoregulate in any variety of conditions. Being of estuarine origin, they inhabit mainly brackish conditions or slightly higher salinities.

 

[DragonFish71]

So all live bearers can go in fully brackish water??

Yes they can. You have to slowly acclimate them. When I'm adding new ones, I take hours to get them acclimated.

 

[vanimal]

Most livebearers can be found naturally in water of all salinities, from pure fresh to full marine. They are euryhaline and can osmoregulate in any variety of conditions. Being of estuarine origin, they inhabit mainly brackish conditions or slightly higher salinities.

Full marine?? You could keep them in salt water??

 

[Elude82]

Man!!!! 132 posts! This is great! people seem to be getting a little frustrated and tense! Lol although I agree with scientific data being a great source, experience still rivals some data! This hobby will always have a debate over scientific data, experience and common sense. I have saltwater tanks, and I defy experienced aquarists all the time. Example being, CYCLING a tank: I have never cycled any of my tanks: going on five now. If I post should I cycle a tank, almost every saltwater person would say blah blah 4 weeks, blah blah 2-3 months. How about I drop fish and even inverts in right after the substrate settles, and I have never lost a fish due to water parameter. I know this went off topic, but point now being. All this was due to the topic of salt, and ended up covering multiple topics of salt: EVERYONE in this hobby FW and SW alike have their opinions about all subjects. Once again, in this hobby everyone has their opinions based on once again scientific data, experience, common sense, even pure luck, and some a mix or all of the above, so lets leave it at the lets agree to disagree! Lol I LOVE THESE FORUMS!

 

[Elude82]

Yep! Lol

 

[PolyptRus]

So if they told you that you could have oscars and guppies together you'd believe them?

Why don't you read the articles that have been presented, articles based on scientific fact?

Dude thats a completely different thing

 

[PolyptRus]

I'm not even bothering with this anymore bunch of grown people arguing like teenage girls I'm out of this thread because I think it's very stupid that grown people are trying to argue with me when I probably am old enough to be there daughter youngest daughter even act your age and let it go some people are pro salts and some people are not and that's fine they don't seem to be having any problems with using salts and you don't seem to have problems with out so how about we just end it at that for some it works for some it doesn't. And that's the same with surgery ya thanks 'dragon fish' for bringing that up sometimes surgery works sometimes it doesn't and I think that's a better connection from surgery to adding aquarium salts to a fresh water tank. Seriously people how are you comparing surgery to aquariums they are two complete different things. People need to except the fact that maybe not everyone is going to do things the exact same way that they do but maybe the way they do things works for them and if it does work for them than where the hell is the problem in that. Everyone does things differently and everyone is going to have their own opinion no matter what even if you are giving scientific facts that's why some people still don't beleive in global warming even as the temp rises year after year. You can not always base everything on science because science is not always correct and that's a fact and science can also be biased for example if they were to take 100 rats give them all the same drug does this mean every rat will react the same way, no some might have good, bad, strong, mild, or no reaction at all does this mean the drug is beneficial?. Plus scientists are human too therefore have there own opinions on things makings science even more biased even though they are basing things on science what it still comes down to is how they studied there theories what they did to get answers and there own opinions on what they are studying, not every scienctist will give you the same answer and if you you were to get thousands of them studying the same thing they would all come out with very different results this is fact that's why scientists are constantly feuding with each other. So I'm positive some scientists would say salt is non beneficial to fish and some would say yes it is beneficial with fish because science is always has been and always will be biased!!! Now on that note I'm outta here!!

 

[CorallineAlgae]

Full marine?? You could keep them in salt water??

I've breed various mollies in saltwater tanks. My brother has 2 baby mollies (just born this week!) in his reef (specific gravity 1.026). They're algae eaters and do a fine job of it. Can't say anything about other livebearers though.

I have used small amounts of aquarium salt for livebearer tanks but never for mixed community tanks, south American or Asian freshwater tanks. Some fish species come from waters that are purely salt free and others don't. You always have to consider the particular species needs.

 

[MrPillow]

Full marine?? You could keep them in salt water??

Yes, you certainly can.

I'm not even bothering with this anymore bunch of grown people arguing like teenage girls I'm out of this thread because I think it's very stupid that grown people are trying to argue with me when I probably am old enough to be there daughter youngest daughter even act your age and let it go some people are pro salts and some people are not and that's fine they don't seem to be having any problems with using salts and you don't seem to have problems with out so how about we just end it at that for some it works for some it doesn't. And that's the same with surgery ya thanks 'dragon fish' for bringing that up sometimes surgery works sometimes it doesn't and I think that's a better connection from surgery to adding aquarium salts to a fresh water tank. Seriously people how are you comparing surgery to aquariums they are two complete different things. People need to except the fact that maybe not everyone is going to do things the exact same way that they do but maybe the way they do things works for them and if it does work for them than where the hell is the problem in that. Everyone does things differently and everyone is going to have their own opinion no matter what even if you are giving scientific facts that's why some people still don't beleive in global warming even as the temp rises year after year. You can not always base everything on science because science is not always correct and that's a fact and science can also be biased for example if they were to take 100 rats give them all the same drug does this mean every rat will react the same way, no some might have good, bad, strong, mild, or no reaction at all does this mean the drug is beneficial?. Plus scientists are human too therefore have there own opinions on things makings science even more biased even though they are basing things on science what it still comes down to is how they studied there theories what they did to get answers and there own opinions on what they are studying, not every scienctist will give you the same answer and if you you were to get thousands of them studying the same thing they would all come out with very different results this is fact that's why scientists are constantly feuding with each other. So I'm positive some scientists would say salt is non beneficial to fish and some would say yes it is beneficial with fish because science is always has been and always will be biased!!! Now on that note I'm outta here!!

Regardless of your long winded rambling, I have still yet to see any scientific evidence, presented by anyone in any capacity by either side of this debate, or in general, that adding sodium chloride to an aquarium at the dosage levels recommended here has the capability to kill the ich parasite, Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. Going on a rant about how science is unreliable and dismissable at best might be appropriate in a discussion of the scientific method, or the foundations of logical ethics, experimental design, etc., but dismissing the nature of the beast does not thwart an opposing argument.

It saddens me greatly that ignorance, for lack of a better word, of the nature of "facts", empirical evidence, and the dangers of conjecture are so readily perpetrated and accepted within a community that as a whole does nothing more than observe a contained set of defined biochemical processes. If there really is no room for science here, perhaps we should all start curing Ich by praying to the heathen gods and sentencing overstockers to eternal ****ation by the Great Aquarium Overlord.

Science is not a cult trying to convince you that it knows all the secrets of life - science is education, deduction, and logic par excellence.

Perhaps next time this debate pops up in a new thread, it won't end so poorly.

 

[PolyptRus]

Yes, you certainly can.

Regardless of your long winded rambling, I have still yet to see any scientific evidence, presented by anyone in any capacity by either side of this debate, or in general, that adding sodium chloride to an aquarium at the dosage levels recommended here has the capability to kill the ich parasite, Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. Going on a rant about how science is unreliable and dismissable at best might be appropriate in a discussion of the scientific method, or the foundations of logical ethics, experimental design, etc., but dismissing the nature of the beast does not thwart an opposing argument.

It saddens me greatly that ignorance, for lack of a better word, of the nature of "facts", empirical evidence, and the dangers of conjecture are so readily perpetrated and accepted within a community that as a whole does nothing more than observe a contained set of defined biochemical processes. If there really is no room for science here, perhaps we should all start curing Ich by praying to the heathen gods and sentencing overstockers to eternal ****ation by the Great Aquarium Overlord.

Science is not a cult trying to convince you that it knows all the secrets of life - science is education, deduction, and logic par excellence.

Perhaps next time this debate pops up in a new thread, it won't end so poorly.

Your no scientist yourself there bud and you clearly must have skipped science class or failed because they teach you in schools how science can be biased!!!! I would know seeing as I just finished high school but than again it must be decades since you've been there so you've probably forgotten what they teach you in science anyway.

 

[Laser]

I think this thread should be locked. I agree there's nothing wrong with a debate, but this has gone beyond that.

 

[Lt.]

I think this thread should be locked. I agree there's nothing wrong with a debate, but this has gone beyond that.

+1 I truly enjoyed the first 5 pages, but then it started gettin a tad distorted.

 

[MrPillow]

It has been decades since I have been to high school, but that alone does not render me a fool.

Science can indeed be biased, but the very nature of the field renders the bias rather irrelevant in the long term - repetition, development, hypothesis falsification, model proposition, theory analysis, all in turn and in due time build upon the basis of eliminating bias from holding sway in the long term results of any serious scientific method.

I will not lie, I skipped many science classes in my day. However, the process of education goes on and while I might not have sat in silly lecture hall during every meeting of Chemistry 3411, the logical basis of the field does not care if I attended class or not. Logic is what it is, and the very concept of trying to disprove the viability of logic is a self-defeating method. Without logic, the foundation of, and the ultimate moderator of scientific work, one could not even begin to comprehend the possibility of disproving such concepts.

While you might be enjoying the pomp and circumstance of being an ever so grandiose high school graduate, one will not take kindly to being lectured about what I have or have not done in my time. Or in this case, what I may or may not be.

I hope your high school days treated you well, perhaps your college career will prove a fair bit more enlightening.


Sincerely yours....

MrPillow
B.S. Animal Biology
M.S. Coastal Ecology
Former doctoral research lab fellow - Harte Research Insitute/Center for Gulf of Mexico Studies

 

[bud29]

Your no scientist yourself there bud and you clearly must have skipped science class or failed because they teach you in schools how science can be biased!!!! I would know seeing as I just finished high school but than again it must be decades since you've been there so you've probably forgotten what they teach you in science anyway.

Let's keep our disagreements factual, and not full of personal attacks.

Here is a great article: The great salt myth