LFS Advice sounds fishy (sorry)

[wparsons]

I'm gearing up to start a 35-gallon FOWLR tank. As it's my first endeavor into SW, I asked the guy at my local LFS (who specialize in SW) a few questions. Well, his answers didn't strike me as the most insightful, and I'd like to compare notes with you guys.

He was strongly of the opinion that LR would be a complete waste of my time unless I wanted to go full-blown reef and he kept trying to push me toward decorative rock.

He also tried to hard-sell me a Bak-Pak skimmer/filter combo. Now, I've gathered that these are well thought of, overall. But I would very much like to minimize the need for mechanical filtration if possible. I do not mean to say that I don't want a skimmer. I've seen enough here to believe in them.

When I asked him about a refugium, he expressed a dim view of them, stating that you need special mud that costs $75.00 for a small bag which you have to replenish every six months.

When I asked about sand, he suggested I go with crushed coral but could buy sand "if I really wanted to."

Please tell me I'm not crazy in wanting a 35-gallon FOWLR tank with the future potential for going full-on reef, with minimal mechanical filtration.

Any input is appreciated.

 

[tjara03]

If you ask me it sound like your LFS guy is dyslexic. You should get as much LR as you can, it will serve wonderful natural biological filtration. plus it looks really nice and your fish will love it because it will offer them many places to hide. a skimmer is a good idea for better quality of water. a regugium also a good idea if you pack it with some liverock and macroalgea you can reduce the nitrates in the tank also depending on the size it adds that much total water to your system which will help. hth

 

[tjara03]

also you should consider LS instead of crushed coral. i have crushed coral in one of my tanks and it holds onto all the stuff you dont want like all the fish poo and everything. and in the refug all you need is LS also. HTH

 

[Konrade]

Don't listen to him. You don't HAVE to fill your fuge with anything other than what you want in it. Sand is much better because it doesn't harbor nitrates like cc and it looks so much better imo. CC looks terrible once your tank matures. LR is the best biological filtration you can buy. It also provides food and hiding places and looks much more natural. Most likely the fake decorations will get algae all over them, and trust me they do not look good in the long run. Not many people here have fake decorations in their tank. KInd of a wasteof time and money. Just buy as much lr as you can afford, and try to keep it simple for your first tank.

 

[wparsons]

I REALLY appreciate the comments. Please keep them coming!

On the subject of LR -- with liverocks.com being temporarily out of commission, what other good sources, either online or local to the Detroit/Warren, MI area, can you recommend?

 

[Fluff]

He was strongly of the opinion that LR would be a complete waste of my time unless I wanted to go full-blown reef and he kept trying to push me toward decorative rock.

Not true. Live rock is one of the best things you can do for your tank rather it's fish only or reef.

He also tried to hard-sell me a Bak-Pak skimmer/filter combo. Now, I've gathered that these are well thought of, overall. But I would very much like to minimize the need for mechanical filtration if possible. I do not mean to say that I don't want a skimmer. I've seen enough here to believe in them.

Skimmers are a great idea but not necessary. The same thing can be accomplished by doing more regular water changes.

When I asked him about a refugium, he expressed a dim view of them, stating that you need special mud that costs $75.00 for a small bag which you have to replenish every six months.

I don't run a fuge but have seen them run successfully using sand instead of the miracle mud.

When I asked about sand, he suggested I go with crushed coral but could buy sand "if I really wanted to."

Sand is much better in my opinion. CC is more maintenance as it will need vacuumed or it will build up waste and cause your nitrates to rise. Sand has more surface area as well, for nitrifying bacteria to grow.

Please tell me I'm not crazy in wanting a 35-gallon FOWLR tank with the future potential for going full-on reef, with minimal mechanical filtration.

I don't think your crazy. The only problem with a 35g tank is that you'll be limited in your choices of inhabitants. As for minimal mechanical filtration, I have five tanks and all of them rely on lr and ph's. Three of them do have skimmers though. The rest only have live rock and powerheads.

Good luck with your new tank.

 

[Fluff]

For live rock, you could try liveaquaria.com
I ordered rock from them and it was decent rock. It doesn't have the diversity of liverock.com's rocks. Actually, as far as I know it didn't have any critters on it. But, this is the only other place I have experience with to offer you. I'm sure you'll be able to find something local.

 

[lando]

Welcome to AquariumAdvice.com!!!
My first bit of advice to you is to go out and find another LFS.
I agree with everyone else here. Funny thing is that you could go the book section of the LFS, pick up a copy of "The Consceintious Marine Aqarist" by Robert Fenner and contradict all of the adivce the emplyee gave you. Good luck

 

[dianeww]

go the book section of the LFS, pick up a copy of "The Consceintious Marine Aqarist" by Robert Fenner and contradict all of the adivce the emplyee gave you.

Maybe hand the book to the employee and suggest he read it!
Tell him you'll be back when he's finished.

 

[cplawrence]

On the subject of LR -- with liverocks.com being temporarily out of commission, what other good sources, either online or local to the Detroit/Warren, MI area, can you recommend?

I have been wondering the same thing. I have a couple of weeks yet before I was planning on setting and have been hoping they would be back up by then. Meanwhile I have been looking around locally (the Grand Rapids area). So far, I have not seen anything that I'd be remotely impressed with (one shop was $10/lb. and it had next to zero coraline algae). One LFS spoke very highly of a place in Lansing that they had picked up their own LR. He couldn't remember the name off hand, but I've been meaning to head out that way and check it out. Otherwise, I have heard some pretty good things about http://www.premiumaquatics.com.

 

[DragonForce]

Welcome friend!

LR will help any tank no matter if it's a fowlr or fully loaded reef.

I personally don't like mechanical filtration and I just run a skimmer and change 5 gal of water weekly. My aquarium is coming up on its 3rd month and the only losses I have had was 2 clowns I purchased from a neglegent LFS and they had brooknylla. (RIP)

Sump/Fuge is ALWAYS a great idea no matter what type of tank. I personally don't run one but I have been doing research to purchase one in the future.

For LR purchasing, if you can find some argrocrete man made rock that is the enviormentally friendly way of doing it(plus you get some really great peices that are hard to find in the natural stuff)
I believe it can be found on garf.org. You may also want to look into making your own LR(dramatically cuts down on rock cost)

This forum has pretty much saved my life in regards to aquarium success. I hope these responses have answered your question. HTH good luck!

 

[ace1uno_00]

WHAT?!?!?
Wow. was this at a PetCo? lol
I agree with everyone here. Use live rock. you dont need live sand because you can seed the sand with the LR but you can get it anyway. just make sure the sand you use is aragonite NOT silicate.

 

[wparsons]

Regarding new LR -- For my initial supply of LR, do I have to cure it outside of the tank, or can I just cure it as part of the initial cycling process (before any fish are added to the new tank)?

I understand any future LR would need to be cured before being added to the established tank.

Thanks!

 

[tjara03]

you can cure it in the tank while cycling and if you wanna put more live rock later on you can add it right to the tank as long as it is not a large amount without having any dramatic negative results. HTH

 

[Fluff]

Depends on where you get it. If it's ordered online and shipped to you, I would QT it for a few weeks just in case. Test periodically to see if you get any spikes. If you buy it locally, ask your lfs if it's cured or not. I'd still QT it for a few days and test just in case though.

 

[seaham358]

I would use the LR to cycle the tank, killing 2 birds with one stone. the cycle and curing of LR.
Agree with others, find a new LFS for advise.

 

[Fluff]

Depends on where you get it. If it's ordered online and shipped to you, I would QT it for a few weeks just in case. Test periodically to see if you get any spikes. If you buy it locally, ask your lfs if it's cured or not. I'd still QT it for a few days and test just in case though.

I'm sorry, I misread your posts. You definately can use it to cycle the tank with.

 

[wparsons]

Thanks for the advice everybody. I really appreciate it.

I'm assuming 45 pounds of LR should do the trick for a 35 gallon? Probably gonna go with the $90 deal from LiveAquaria.com. I know there's better stuff to be had, but I think it'll be a good start... And I really don't want to give $5.99 a pound to the LFS who thinks it's a "waste of time" for me.

The next question is how much lighting do I realistically need to start a FOWLR tank?

I'm trying to balance economy against future reef possibilities, but I can't realistically afford a full-blown PC or MH setup right now. Would I be okay with a two-bulb 50/50 and Actinic setup to start with? I understand I'll need more later on.

 

[Don424]

Let's see.......first.....try and picture your tank with 45-70 lbs of live rock in it. How much room will your fish have to swim in? Along with that, since the majority of your internal tank volume will be consumed with rock, how many fish do you think you'll be able to put in it? second..........with all that LR in it and all the nitrification going on, what do you think the chances will be that you'll be free of hair and other algae growing wild because you don't have a skimmer or some other kind of mechanical filtration to remove waste and export nutrients that WILL be given off by the rock including the ever loving nutrient PHOSPHATE?..............and you'll need massive circulation to keep the detritus in suspension so it can be captured by some kind of filter to get rid of it because it won't be able to break down fast enough............so with sand you'll and all the circulation you'll need you'll have massive sand storms..........CC will not give you that problem because it has weight to it. Don't let anybody fool you......sand collects and retains detritus also. Your tank will look like a rocky mountain snowstorm if you have the proper circulation. Third.....refugium.....why? Your LFS guy is right...........for his suggestion of faux rock at least, because you won't have the nutrient problem therefore you wouldn't need a vehicle for nutrient export. With LR in the tank, the skimmer will do that for you and as far as the bak/pak combo.........not a bad choice.........you'll get nutrient export and mechanical filtration.

Your LFS guy trying to KISS it for you.

Your local guy isn't far off track..........he just didn't explain it very well to you

 

[wparsons]

I appreciate your insight Don. But I don't plan on putting anywhere near 70 pounds of LR in this 35-gallon tank. I'm considering buying a total of 45 pounds because the price is attractive and what I've read about the rock here indicates that it's decent. I may not even end up using all 45 pounds.

Regarding a skimmer, I do plan on getting one. But I don't know if I'm sold on the necessity of mechanical filtration in addition.

As far as faux rock goes, I really have no desire to go that route. I *do* want to have some corals in the tank. I would also like to keep open the option of making the tank a full reef setup in the future. Going with anything other than LR seems to eliminate this possibility, at least if I don't want to have to replace the faux rock with LR later on -- thus incurring even greater trouble and expense than getting what I want from the outset.

Sand: Again, CC might be okay in the short term, but it simply doesn't fit with my long-term goals.

You're right in the sense that the LFS guy was trying to keep things simple. He simply didn't bother to find out what I wanted out of this endeavor -- and that turned me off, big time. I was asking for assistance and advice from him, not a set of instructions for building the tank HE thought I should have.