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Not all t5ho or LEDs are created equal. Yes this statement is starting to sound cliché, but truth be told. If you're looking at $50 t5ho fixture, your either buying a very cheap cheaply made one with a single poor reflector over all bulbs (cheap ballasts to boot) , or you're lucky to find a decent good quality one 'used' with parabolic high polished German-grade reflectors over 'each' bulb... which good quality t5ho fixtures are going to cost you way more than $50. Plus, if you decide to buy cheap bulbs, there's goes your optimum full spectrum. You'll just get less than optimal growth and color development.

So to make a fair comparison, you should be considering a decent fixture like an AquaticLife or Catalina for instance. A 36" dual AL is $100+ and a quad is $279 (as of today on Amazon). How much are geissmann bulbs? Close to $20 a pop. You'll be spending $40 to $80 annually for bulb replacements. No need to change bulbs on LEDs. I think they're rated for 50K hours or more.

Here are other cons to t5ho. They run hot, which can be problematic in the summer months if you're ambient temp isn't AC'd. Not to mention, the heat can crack a glass top, so it should be topless. This of course results in increased evaporation and potential for fish to jump out. The bulbs contain mercury, which you'll be contributing to the toxic waste in our landfills. And lastly, which some will argue the merits of it, energy cost and consumption.

To me the "form & function" of a sleek and modern LED fixture wins and is worth the investment. They run cool so you can sit them right on a glass top if you'd like.

Now the pros of the Ecoxotic E-Series. It takes all the aforementioned advantages over T5HO, then adds unique pros on top of that. For one, you can control the intensity output without having to reduce your photoperiod or suspend the fixture any higher to "tame" the light to combat algae. No separate dimmer needed. Two, you can control your color temperature output on a whim by using any of the presets or by mixing any of the RGB values to create a customized color output or CRI (color rendering index) to your liking. Three, there are dynamic modes which some can be viewed as 'bells and whistles.' But hey, you can choose to use them or not -- I'll take it. These include, moonlight, clouds, sunrise, and lightning. Moonlight is cool because don't have to buy a separate moonlight kit if your T5HO doesn't come integrated with one. And last but not least, an inline controller in which you can set the ramp up and down function. IME, in using a ramp timer on my Sat+ LEDs on an open top rimless, is that I have no more dead fish to pick up off the carpet. Basically the gradual introduction and turning off of light, eases the fish and reduces their stress level, which results in no more "jumpers." Most of this all controlled wirelessly with a remote.

Here's a cool graphic on the e-Series.

spec_chart.jpg


Well that was my 2 cents on how innovative and exciting these LEDs are.
 
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On a 2 foot tall tank saying a $50 light fixture wwill go e medium light is really hopeful at the very best. There is a vast difference in the par levels of t5ho fixtures and even the ones that produce the most par might barely get you to a medium light level. Those fixtures are also much closer to $100 than their cheaper counterparts. Taking that into consideration it throws off your calculations based on price off by a large amount.

Next you get to the t5ho fixtures taking up too much space. I had 2 aquatic life t5ho fixtures over a 55g tank and had absolutely no room to work inside the tank without removing the light. If I had instead spent the $200 on a quality led fixture instead of the t5ho then it would have made my life much easier.

Per this thread, 40-ish PAR at 24" seems very reasonable with an Odyssea fixture. Maybe a bit less, maybe a bit more, but it's definitely similar to the number quoted in Brian's post using 60 degree optics which will sacrifice coverage for intensity. If you were to get a $100 fixture, you'll increase your light by ~50% or so and still take a decade to break even.
 
Not all t5ho or LEDs are created equal. Yes this statement is starting to sound cliché, but truth be told. If you're looking at $50 t5ho fixture, your either buying a very cheap cheaply made one with a single poor reflector over all bulbs (cheap ballasts to boot) , or you're lucky to find a decent good quality one 'used' with parabolic high polished German-grade reflectors over 'each' bulb... which good quality t5ho fixtures are going to cost you way more than $50. Plus, if you decide to buy cheap bulbs, there's goes your optimum full spectrum. You'll just get less than optimal growth and color development.

So to make a fair comparison, you should be considering a decent fixture like an AquaticLife or Catalina for instance. A 36" dual AL is $100+ and a quad is $279 (as of today on Amazon). How much are geissmann bulbs? Close to $20 a pop. You'll be spending $40 to $80 annually for bulb replacements. No need to change bulbs on LEDs. I think they're rated for 50K hours or more.

I'm fully aware of the complex nature of T5HO. But I'm comparing a $50 T5HO to a $300 LED because they perform similarly.

Provided by you:

spec_chart.jpg


Per Hoppy and a number of other PT.net goers:
img_2969387_1_cec4d1e48cc71473f65767ba7ee75959.jpg


Combining the two using data from here get's us this graph (made by me in about 5 minutes because my computer crashed)

F5ksbKZ.png


That's a little too similar for a $300 unit. Coupled with the fact that they used a 36" fixture (48" will measure more PAR) and odyssea brand bulbs (HORRIBLE, I budget to replace them when the fixture was first purchased), and it paints a poor picture for those LEDs.

Here are other cons to t5ho. They run hot (Fair enough), which can be problematic in the summer months if you're ambient temp isn't AC'd (Never been a problem for me). Not to mention, the heat can crack a glass top, so it should be topless (Rare problem, and topless isn't that bad). This of course results in increased evaporation and potential for fish to jump out. The bulbs contain mercury, which you'll be contributing to the toxic waste in our landfills. And lastly, which some will argue the merits of it, energy cost and consumption. (Environmental arguments are valid, but again niche)
See comments

To me the "form & function" of a sleek and modern LED fixture wins and is worth the investment. They run cool so you can sit them right on a glass top if you'd like.
This is the same argument used to sell $150 ADA drop checkers rather than $5 chinese ebay models. It doesn't appeal to me there, and it doesn't appeal to me here.

Now the pros of the Ecoxotic E-Series. It takes all the aforementioned (dis)advantages over T5HO, then adds unique pros on top of that. For one, you can control the intensity output without having to reduce your photoperiod or suspend the fixture any higher to "tame" the light to combat algae (Super cool feature, great for beginners). No separate dimmer needed. Two, you can control your color temperature output on a whim by using any of the presets or by mixing any of the RGB values to create a customized color output or CRI (color rendering index) to your liking (total novelty). Three, there are dynamic modes which some can be viewed as 'bells and whistles.' (also novelty)But hey, you can choose to use them or not -- I'll take it. These include, moonlight, clouds, sunrise, and lightning. Moonlight is cool because don't have to buy a separate moonlight kit if your T5HO doesn't come integrated with one. (novelty) And last but not least, an inline controller in which you can set the ramp up and down function. IME, in using a ramp timer on my Sat+ LEDs on an open top rimless, is that I have no more dead fish to pick up off the carpet. Basically the gradual introduction and turning off of light, eases the fish and reduces their stress level, which results in no more "jumpers." (Debateable point. I've only lost a handful of fish to an open top, and I doubt sudden light changes were the cause as they should get used to it after a while) Most of this all controlled wirelessly with a remote. (Also novelty)

Here's a cool graphic on the e-Series.

Well that was my 2 cents on how innovative and exciting these LEDs are.



I also fear that you guys are missing a big portion of my argument. At the highest level of lighting elegance and large/limitless budget, I think that there is a strong argument for LEDs. But that vast majority of threads here are essentially "How can I get the most light in my tank for the least amount of money," and LED simply can't compete with T5HO in that department yet. You end up paying a lot extra for novelty that many beginner or intermediate (and many advanced) users simply do not value. Comparing 4xT5HO with Giesemann bulbs to $300-400 LED rigs is not the spirit of these threads, but I feel like that's what they inevitably boil down to.


And there's something to be said for being able to go buy your lighting for your local LFS/Petco, which LED still does not have going for it.
 
Yes they are. And when multiple CFLs are gathered they can be used on larger tanks. Have a great weekend!


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A better graph for the comparison. Removed the 6" data point from the E-series as it was distorting the scale too much for an unopposed point.

baANBbu.png
 
The PAR on the Dutch BML with a 75° fixture is between 55 and 95 at 24" depth. You'll get PAR 55 at the front and back of a tank that is 18" front to back, and PAR 95 directly beneath the light. Mine is on the front of my tank, pointed mostly at the front floor, while the four dome CFL's sit on the back of my tank, lighting up all the tall plants in the back.

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And there's something to be said for being able to go buy your lighting for your local LFS/Petco, which LED still does not have going for it.

Actually, now that you mention it, petco is phasing out t5 lighting, talk about cheap, i went in there to half priced t5ho and the bulbs were a 3rd of original cost.. they now carry 3 models of led, current sat+, hagen and some crap one I can't remeber..

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Can any one give me some feed back on the finnex planted plus? I'm wanting to grow dwarf hair grass.
 
The PAR on the Dutch BML with a 75° fixture is between 55 and 95 at 24" depth. You'll get PAR 55 at the front and back of a tank that is 18" front to back, and PAR 95 directly beneath the light. Mine is on the front of my tank, pointed mostly at the front floor, while the four dome CFL's sit on the back of my tank, lighting up allthe tall plants in the back.

Those are some pretty impressive numbers actually. It's nice to see manufacturers posting their own PAR numbers now, although I'm hesitant to trust them too much. I see two issues.

1) It's still 2-3x the price of T5HO that will get you plenty of light.

2) The light discrepancy is pretty large front to back. 90+ PAR is going to be trouble without CO2. If you dial it down a manageable 50, the peripherals are going to be a disappointing 25-30.


That being said, I'm still impressed, much more so than the previously linked models for the aforementioned reasons. I'm considering repurposing my T5HOs right now, so I might consider picking up LEDs just to play with them a little bit to see what the commotion is about. Still not ready for prime time IMO, but this is progress.
 
On my BML dutch xb, beam angle 90degrees, i get 80 par at 24". 65par 9" from fixture centre. Luckily i do have co2!!!

This is a great discussion by the way
 
On my BML dutch xb, beam angle 90degrees, i get 80 par at 24". 65par 9" from fixture centre. Luckily i do have co2!!!

This is a great discussion by the way


That's something odd about LEDs: you actually get better peripheral lighting and greater distances. Great for tall tanks, but horrible for squat tanks like my preferred 40B.
 
It's a seriously powerful led fixture. I got the 75° to focus on my front floor plants that need the high part, which is only about 8" from front to mid. My tall plants in the back are getting plenty of light from my CFL's domes. You can get a fixture with a focusing lens anywhere from 45° up to 90°. The 120° offered by one of the fixtures mentioned in this post I would think would scatter the light too much. Even at 75°, I have to angle it away from me since the light is so piercingly bright.

Btw, mine was $300 because I got it in black, with a dimmer, and tank mounts. They also offer a ceiling mount kit that's as cheap as the tank mounts, but gives you the ability to have it higher up to cover more of the tank and/or reduce the PAR if you didn't get the dimmer. The tank mounts also allow you to adjust the angle of the fixture - mines on the front of my tank, angled slightly towards the back, lighting up the front of my plants for much, much better viewing.

You can get the Dutch XB at one of my local shops for $269+8.25%TX sales tax.

As far as the legitimacy of BML's PAR levels, they define how they were determined on their website. I picked mine up at their facility, and can tell you first hand they're quite legit. The owner is a science/math hypernerd. They had multiple college degrees on their walls.

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A better graph for the comparison. Removed the 6" data point from the E-series as it was distorting the scale too much for an unopposed point.

baANBbu.png

Fine... "I'm your Huckleberry!" Haha :brows:

So going back to this argument... OK, performance-wise in terms of PAR an E-Series and Odyssea 36" fixture performs similarly -- assuming the data was collected with similar conditions. PAR aside, going to the cost factors... I crunched some numbers (with prices as of today). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Initial Cost on 36" fixtures:

  • Odyssea 36" dual T5HO = $44.97
(source)

--Versus--

  • Ecoxotic E-Series 36" fixture = $265.99
(source)


Annual Costs:

Using the data found at the US EIA (source), the cost (in Cents per Kilowatthour) for (using your state) Colorado is 11.73. With an average of 8 hour per day photoperiod, I plugged that in with this calculator (here) to get an annual cost of each fixture's power consumption costs as follows:

Odyssea (78 watts) = $26.72 yr
vs.
Ecoxotic E-Series (46 watts) = $15.76 yr
==============================
So Odyssea bleeds just $10.96 yearly over the E-series. Not much, but I'll add this to the annual cost of bulb replacements to see how long it will take to reach the ROI on the E-Series.

Using Giesemann Powerchrome Midday T5 (source) as the "replacement" bulbs due to it's known reputation for quality in delivering optimal spectral performance. Anyway, as of today, they're $19.99 a pop... so that's $39.98.

  • Annual costs to run the Odyssea over the E-Series = 39.98+10.96 = $50.94
======================================
So how long will it take to run the Odyssea to reach the $265.99 investment on an E-Series?

The annual operating costs (50.94) x 4.3 years + initial cost (44.97) = $264.01

Answer: So in 4.3 years, you'll reach the ROI and start reaping the investment benefits on the E-series. Plus you'll get all the "novelty" aspects and more as a 'bonus' or 'force fed to you' at no extra cost -- depending on how you look at it. I like for the former of course ;)

Let's delve a little deeper, shall we? These LED fixtures are rated to have a lifespan for at least 50K hours. Assuming it last that long... 50K \ 365 \ 8 = 17 years of life!!!

(Estimated $600+ additional savings throughout lifespan post ROI point)

Heck you can pass this light down to your children if you want to get them in the hobby. Or if you want to get out, the thing to consider is that these LEDs have a "higher resale value."

======================================

Another important thing to note, the Odyssea fixture and bulbs mentioned in this comparison have been out for many years... so the price is pretty stable at this point. However, the E-Series just came out in retail a week ago. The price in this comparison are based on 'today's' prices and are expected to go lower. For example, following the trend of the Current-USA's Sat+ which the 36" started at $159.99 on initial release in Q2 of 2013, it now goes for $98.73.

So yes, you can use cheaper bulbs in the Odyssea and make up the power consumption costs annually... this might change the 4.3 years to 5. But then you'll also have to consider the inevitable price drop the E-Series is most likely to take. So I suppose the question to ask is, if someone is going to be in this hobby for a few months or the long haul? If short-term, then an Odyssea may be the right choice... but if you're in it for years to come, then the LED is the right choice, IMO.

So now putting aside PAR/price similarities/differences, in terms of the novelty features you love so much. To me, it's all about form & function. Maybe a basic function is all that's important to some and practicality is top on the list. In my house, my tanks become more like pieces of furniture. I like to sit back in my couch and match the lighting to the situation outside of my photoperiod. I don't want to stare at a blinding light in a dim/dark room if I wanted to enjoy looking at my fish/plants at night. The flexibility of this light accomplishes that role. Moreover, I want my furniture to look good and have a certain degree of Feng Shui and style. I think a sleek and modern looking LED fixture does just that and is less distracting than a big-Ol' shop looking fixture on your tank.

Couple that with all the novelty features (HERE) and "going green" benefits this light has to offer, I'm sticking to my justifications on a good quality LED. (y)
 
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Brian_nano... preach on brother nano!! Word is born..all praise rgb's

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I saw that the Finnex and Satellite fixtures are mostly on sale on Amazon. Dropped by $50 on average from a month ago!

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I saw that the Finnex and Satellite fixtures are mostly on sale on Amazon. Dropped by $50 on average from a month ago!

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Yeah those are great prices. Great fixtures for certain applications.
 
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