Low Maintenance / No Water Change Tank

[Delapool]

Following! Very interesting thread. Love these ones. I've only done one for 6 months by accident basically.

You mentioned gravel as substrate. Do you just have fine gravel and allow the mulm (for want of a better word) to build up? Do you add anything else to substrate?

 

[PB_Smith]

So this is a drastic departure from the "change 50% weekly" approach.

How do you account for the build up of minerals and such present in the tap water. I would imagine if your water is at all "hard" you would have issues with a build up of the minerals/calcium in the water. It's not all going to be used by the plants and just topping off only concentrates those dissolved solids that are not utilized by the fish or plants.


ps; you do not need a filter to increase dissolved oxygen, you only need to circulate the bottom layers of water to the top and the water at the surface is always at saturation.
an air stone would suffice for that.

For this type of set-up and for the purity of the experiment, you should only use power heads to circulate water.
When you start adding filtration systems and all, then you simply have a poorly maintained tank.

 

[Caliban07]

So this is a drastic departure from the "change 50% weekly" approach.

How do you account for the build up of minerals and such present in the tap water. I would imagine if your water is at all "hard" you would have issues with a build up of the minerals/calcium in the water. It's not all going to be used by the plants and just topping off only concentrates those dissolved solids that are not utilized by the fish or plants.


ps; you do not need a filter to increase dissolved oxygen, you only need to circulate the bottom layers of water to the top and the water at the surface is always at saturation.
an air stone would suffice for that.

For this type of set-up and for the purity of the experiment, you should only use power heads to circulate water.
When you start adding filtration systems and all, then you simply have a poorly maintained tank.

I agree that minerals would build up but we don't know what level of these start to become a problem for the inhabitants. Or do we?

That fact that BBradbury has had one of these setups running for 2 years leads me to believe that the inhabitants would be in no immediate danger using the same source water.


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[PB_Smith]

I agree that minerals would build up but we don't know what level of these start to become a problem for the inhabitants. Or do we?

That fact that BBradbury has had one of these setups running for 2 years leads me to believe that the inhabitants would be in no immediate danger using the same source water.


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I honestly do not know at what levels it would be problematic, but I do know that certain elements will just become more concentrated over time.
How much time before it's an issue, ???

Just that people reading this need to keep in mind what their own water is like if they consider trying this method.

 

[MollysMollies]

I honestly do not know at what levels it would be problematic, but I do know that certain elements will just become more concentrated over time.
How much time before it's an issue, ???

Just that people reading this need to keep in mind what their own water is like if they consider trying this method.

Thanks for the post. Yes, I'm in Albuquerque, NM and have hard water. It's been a while since I tested so I don't remember the numbers but I will need to keep this in mind when I start mine. B- thoughts?

 

[Caliban07]

I honestly do not know at what levels it would be problematic, but I do know that certain elements will just become more concentrated over time.
How much time before it's an issue, ???

Just that people reading this need to keep in mind what their own water is like if they consider trying this method.

I agree it's something that needs attention and awareness. I wouldn't like to do a 50% water change on one of these setups after 2 years.

Would this kind if build ups shorten the life span if it's inhabitants?

What about ph? Kept steady with tops?


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[Delapool]

So this is a drastic departure from the "change 50% weekly" approach.

How do you account for the build up of minerals and such present in the tap water. I would imagine if your water is at all "hard" you would have issues with a build up of the minerals/calcium in the water. It's not all going to be used by the plants and just topping off only concentrates those dissolved solids that are not utilized by the fish or plants.


ps; you do not need a filter to increase dissolved oxygen, you only need to circulate the bottom layers of water to the top and the water at the surface is always at saturation.
an air stone would suffice for that.

For this type of set-up and for the purity of the experiment, you should only use power heads to circulate water.
When you start adding filtration systems and all, then you simply have a poorly maintained tank.

I think I see where your going but idk, I don't see why filtration isn't allowed for these setups?

 

[PB_Smith]

I have seen other "natural" set-ups where all filtration was accomplished via bacteria/plants, but those always relied on regular water changes to them "fresh", they just were devoid of any type of filtration.

Not so sure about the viability of Bb's approach over the long haul or with other types of fish beyond guppies.

 

[Delapool]

I have seen other "natural" set-ups where all filtration was accomplished via bacteria/plants, but those always relied on regular water changes to them "fresh", they just were devoid of any type of filtration.

Not so sure about the viability of Bb's approach over the long haul or with other types of fish beyond guppies.

Interesting, yes I wonder on these always.

The one I had was running with an air-powered ugf and small hob with swordtails. I'm sure ph was crashed in it but never had a test kit. Some minor top ups and just fish food for ferts.

 

[PB_Smith]

I think I see where your going but idk, I don't see why filtration isn't allowed for these setups?

because the whole concept behind this type of set-up is natural filtration via plants, not a filter system.

Like I said, add filter systems and all and don't do any water changes, all you end up with a poorly maintained planted tank.

natural systems exist, but not in the fashion or methodology Bb is using.
This approach is much, much closer to the "unflushed toilet" analogy he/she likes to toss around.

Am I the only one who finds it odd that the person who is always counseling people that the ONLY way to keep fish is by changing at least 50% of the water weekly is now contradicting themselves?

I can appreciate it as an experiment, but it does call into question the OP's actual grasp of what is going on in an aquarium environment, even if it is "silly chemistry stuff".

 

[PB_Smith]

But having said all that, I am curious to see how it progress's and will be following along.

 

[Delapool]

because the whole concept behind this type of set-up is natural filtration via plants, not a filter system.

Like I said, add filter systems and all and don't do any water changes, all you end up with a poorly maintained planted tank.

natural systems exist, but not in the fashion or methodology Bb is using.
This approach is much, much closer to the "unflushed toilet" analogy he/she likes to toss around.

Am I the only one who finds it odd that the person who is always counseling people that the ONLY way to keep fish is by changing at least 50% of the water weekly is now contradicting themselves?

I can appreciate it as an experiment, but it does call into question the OP's actual grasp of what is going on in an aquarium environment, even if it is "silly chemistry stuff".

Still lost, I don't see why having filtration should result in a poorly maintained tank for this sort of system? I should add I have never done one by design so thinking I'm missing a step your naturally seeing?

Edit - or it could be way past bedtime

 

[PB_Smith]

Still lost, I don't see why having filtration should result in a poorly maintained tank for this sort of system? I should add I have never done one by design so thinking I'm missing a step your naturally seeing?

Because the ENTIRE concept behind this type of set-up is
NO OTHER FILTRATION BUT PLANTS.

When you begin to add a filtration system, you no longer have the same type of set-up relying solely on the plants for maintaining water quality.


So what would you call an aquarium with fish, plants and a filter system that never gets any water changes, just topped off ?

I call it a poorly maintained planted tank, not a "natural" system.

 

[Delapool]

Because the ENTIRE concept behind this type of set-up is
NO OTHER FILTRATION BUT PLANTS.

When you begin to add a filtration system, you no longer have the same type of set-up relying solely on the plants for maintaining water quality.


So what would you call an aquarium with fish, plants and a filter system that never gets any water changes, just topped off ?

I call it a poorly maintained planted tank, not a "natural" system.

But as soon as you add anything that creates flow you are modifying it and creating a different environment for bb, etc. I see what your saying on a natural environment, it just seems a big ask to do it without any help from technology? I guess what I'm asking is if you had to pick an experiment along these lines (I guess a walstad type tank). Would you go completely natural or with some extra flow (air stone, filter, etc)? Just curious on thoughts for success.

 

[PB_Smith]

But as soon as you add anything that creates flow you are modifying it and creating a different environment for bb, etc. I see what your saying on a natural environment, it just seems a big ask to do it without any help from technology? I guess what I'm asking is if you had to pick an experiment along these lines (I guess a walstad type tank). Would you go completely natural or with some extra flow (air stone, filter, etc)? Just curious on thoughts for success.

providing circulation is far different than specifically channeling the water through some type of filter media.

if it were me I would probably simply utilize air stones to provide circulation and to keep the layers of water moving from the bottom to the top, which is really all that is needed to maintain good oxygenation.
That is really the only concern for this type of set-up, oxygenation, assuming the waste products are being handled by the natural filtration the plants provide.

If you need to add a filter to maintain water quality, than the ecosystem is out of balance.

 

[Delapool]

Well at least there is air-stones, I don't think I could cope not running an air pump for some bubbles (I know, I know). Thanks for the posts.

 

[BBradbury]

Low Maintenance Tank

Following! Very interesting thread. Love these ones. I've only done one for 6 months by accident basically.

You mentioned gravel as substrate. Do you just have fine gravel and allow the mulm (for want of a better word) to build up? Do you add anything else to substrate?

Hello Del...

I have pea-size tank gravel from an old tank I closed up. The organic matter that starts to collect in the bottom material is mostly dissolved in the tank water and a source of nutients for the land and aquatic plants. It also contains a good amount of beneficial bacteria which is very important to the health of this type of tank. It's no different than the standard tank. It still needs a healthy bacteria colony to use the ammonia produced when the tank lights are turned off, when the plants rest. As we know, the fish still produce ammonia, even when resting.

I don't add anything else to the gravel. The land plant, Aglaonema needs a lot of aeration around the roots. Without it, the plant roots don't take up the water nutrients as well. This type of tank isn't that great for aquatic plants because a lot of surface movement will reduce the CO2 in the water. I've found that floating plants like Hornwort don't mind the extra water movement. They take in a lot nutrients through their leaves and as long as I have good lighting, this plant grows very well.

The "Ag" just needs subdued lighting. I have a two bulb shop light over the tank and a couple of pole lamps near the tank. The lights are on a timer set for 12 hours on and 12 off.

B

 

[BBradbury]

Low Maintenance Tank

So this is a drastic departure from the "change 50% weekly" approach.

How do you account for the build up of minerals and such present in the tap water. I would imagine if your water is at all "hard" you would have issues with a build up of the minerals/calcium in the water. It's not all going to be used by the plants and just topping off only concentrates those dissolved solids that are not utilized by the fish or plants.


ps; you do not need a filter to increase dissolved oxygen, you only need to circulate the bottom layers of water to the top and the water at the surface is always at saturation.
an air stone would suffice for that.

For this type of set-up and for the purity of the experiment, you should only use power heads to circulate water.
When you start adding filtration systems and all, then you simply have a poorly maintained tank.

Hello PB...

I still keep the other tanks, but all the water changes are pretty time consuming. I've maxed out my time, but still wanted that next tank. I was given a 55 gallon which is what I wanted for this low maintenance tank. I didn't have time for another tank that needed frequent, large water changes, so this was my chance to experiment.

The mineral buildup might be an issue, long term. The "Ag" plant grows quickly in the high nutrient water. It takes in all pollutants. If the minerals in the tank water rise to unhealthy levels, the roots take it in and over time, some of the leaves will turn yellow. I just trim these off and apparently, this removes the toxin.

I use the internal filter not just to aerate the tank water, but also to grow the bacteria colony. This has the same use as on a standard tank, to use some of the ammonia and nitrite produced by the fish. This is a backup filter for the night time hours, when the plants rest and don't take in as much nitrogen.

I haven't tested the tank water yet on this new tank. I tried this before on a 30 G and the water tests were almost as good as the other tanks that got 50 percent or more water changes every week. Nitrates were marginally higher in the tank that didn't get the water changes. It ran for the better part of 2 years without a water change. The plants' root system got to be too much for the small tank and conditions got crowded. So, I broke everything down and moved the fish and put the plants in other tanks. This larger tank will hopefully run for some time.

B

 

[Delapool]

Hello Del...

I have pea-size tank gravel from an old tank I closed up. The organic matter that starts to collect in the bottom material is mostly dissolved in the tank water and a source of nutients for the land and aquatic plants. It also contains a good amount of beneficial bacteria which is very important to the health of this type of tank. It's no different than the standard tank. It still needs a healthy bacteria colony to use the ammonia produced when the tank lights are turned off, when the plants rest. As we know, the fish still produce ammonia, even when resting.

I don't add anything else to the gravel. The land plant, Aglaonema needs a lot of aeration around the roots. Without it, the plant roots don't take up the water nutrients as well. This type of tank isn't that great for aquatic plants because a lot of surface movement will reduce the CO2 in the water. I've found that floating plants like Hornwort don't mind the extra water movement. They take in a lot nutrients through their leaves and as long as I have good lighting, this plant grows very well.

The "Ag" just needs subdued lighting. I have a two bulb shop light over the tank and a couple of pole lamps near the tank. The lights are on a timer set for 12 hours on and 12 off.

B

If you could do it, would you add any clay, soil, etc below the gravel? Not for the nutrients but for the cation exchange capacity that I've seen a few posts on lately? Thanks for the reply.

 

[brennae]

I'm trying to convince my mother who likes like bearers to try something similar when we get moved. I tried a half hearted Walstead once but I hated the dirt. Maybe I will try again or maybe do something like this (rather do it on my mom's dime and call it hers) lol

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