Low Maintenance / No Water Change Tank

[BBradbury]

Low Maintenance Tank

Thanks for the post. Yes, I'm in Albuquerque, NM and have hard water. It's been a while since I tested so I don't remember the numbers but I will need to keep this in mind when I start mine. B- thoughts?

Mollies...

Haven't tested my tank water here in Colorado for years. Last time as I recall, the pH was 7.6. Never tested hardness or any of that. It's important to have the tank well planted with the Chinese Evergreen plants. All the potting mixture must be rinsed from the roots. All of it. If you leave the potting mixture attached to the roots, no oxygen will get to them and the plant will die. The more plants, the better the water chemistry.

I went to the local kitchen supply store and found a couple of small, cheap plastic baskets with holes on the sides to hold the plants in place. On the bottom of the basket, I put an air stone and attached a length of plastic tubing to it and the other end to an air pump. I arranged some medium sized rocks around the stocks of the plant to hold it in place in the basket. Take care not to damage the roots. The bubbles from the air stone will maintain a steady source of O2 to the roots and the water movement helps the roots take in the nutrients from the water. The plant grows very well. The large "Ag" plant I have has been in the water for roughly 3 weeks. I have a couple of dozen guppy fry in there and added a bit of liquid fertilizer. The plant is doing very well and has two blooms. The blooms are similar to those on the Anubius aquatic plant.

Keep the questions coming if you have them.

B

 

[BBradbury]

Low Mainteance Tank

providing circulation is far different than specifically channeling the water through some type of filter media.

if it were me I would probably simply utilize air stones to provide circulation and to keep the layers of water moving from the bottom to the top, which is really all that is needed to maintain good oxygenation.
That is really the only concern for this type of set-up, oxygenation, assuming the waste products are being handled by the natural filtration the plants provide.

If you need to add a filter to maintain water quality, than the ecosystem is out of balance.

Some more explanation...

Mechanical filtration is needed for the period at night. The plants essentially rest and this reduces the rate at which they use up the dissolved nitrogen from the fish waste. To maintain good, steady water condtions when the plants rest, you'll need a backup filter. This is where the internal filter is needed. The bacteria colony in the mechanical filter will keep working and help use the little bit of ammonia the fish produce while the plants rest.

B

 

[BBradbury]

Low Maintenance Tanks

Pics? '

Hello Fish...

Here's a pic of the tank.

B

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[BBradbury]

Low Maintenance Tank

If you could get a cheap TDS meter off of ebay I'd be interested to see what the tank tests at periodically.

Hello jet...

Tested the tank water last night. The system appears to be working. Had an old API kit, so used it. Ammonia and nitrites were at "0". A trace of nitrates, possibly 10 at most. The fish load is minimal. 30 or so Guppy fry and some a bit older in roughly 35 gallons of treated tap water.

The "Ag" plant is doing well too. Two blossoms on it. Nothing more to do at this point, except monitor the water periodically and do the topoffs.

B

 

[PB_Smith]

Some more explanation...

Mechanical filtration is needed for the period at night. The plants essentially rest and this reduces the rate at which they use up the dissolved nitrogen from the fish waste. To maintain good, steady water condtions when the plants rest, you'll need a backup filter. This is where the internal filter is needed. The bacteria colony in the mechanical filter will keep working and help use the little bit of ammonia the fish produce while the plants rest.

B

Yes, I understand all that, but if you are also using a filter with filter media in it, don't make the claim that the plants are keeping the water "pure" because I guarantee you the BB in the filter is doing the majority of the work.

You should take out the filter if you want this to be an actual test/experiment of this methodology as you said.

you know, limiting and controlling variables when conducting scientific research.

Am I the only one who sees the discrepancy here?

it's almost like the date who buys take out and puts on a plate and claims to have prepared it themselves because they scooped it out of the container.

if you have a filter in the tank running with filter media in it, how on Earth can you make the claim that the plants are what is keeping the water pure?

there are specific methods and procedures in science for a reason and the way you are going about this "experiment" will yield you absolutely no definitive results.

 

[dalto]

You should take out the filter if you want this to be an actual test/experiment of this methodology as you said.

you know, limiting and controlling variables when conducting scientific research.

Am I the only one who sees the discrepancy here?

it's almost like the date who buys take out and puts on a plate and claims to have prepared it themselves because they scooped it out of the container.

if you have a filter in the tank running with filter media in it, how on Earth can you make the claim that the plants are what is keeping the water pure?

there are specific methods and procedures in science for a reason and the way you are going about this "experiment" will yield you absolutely no definitive results.

Honestly, I am not sure I am following your argument here. When did this become an experiment to determine the effectiveness of using plants as filtration?

From my reading the goal was simply to create a low maintenance tank that didn't require water changes.

 

[PB_Smith]

Honestly, I am not sure I am following your argument here. When did this become an experiment to determine the effectiveness of using plants as filtration?

From my reading the goal was simply to create a low maintenance tank that didn't require water changes.

True, Bb didn't explicitly state this project was an "experiment" in the strictest sense, but it is being approached in that manner to some degree.
My only contention is about making the claims of how great the plants do in keeping the water quality stable when in reality the filter is responsible for the majority of it.

If he/she wants to really test the hypothesis that the plants alone would suffice to keep the water quality pure, something that Bb continually stresses, then there should be no other means of filtration/water treatment present, otherwise the claims about the efficiency of the plants that are continually being posted are rather dubious.

Does that make sense?

 

[BBradbury]

Low Maintenance Tanks

Yes, I understand all that, but if you are also using a filter with filter media in it, don't make the claim that the plants are keeping the water "pure" because I guarantee you the BB in the filter is doing the majority of the work.

You should take out the filter if you want this to be an actual test/experiment of this methodology as you said.

you know, limiting and controlling variables when conducting scientific research.

Am I the only one who sees the discrepancy here?

it's almost like the date who buys take out and puts on a plate and claims to have prepared it themselves because they scooped it out of the container.

if you have a filter in the tank running with filter media in it, how on Earth can you make the claim that the plants are what is keeping the water pure?

there are specific methods and procedures in science for a reason and the way you are going about this "experiment" will yield you absolutely no definitive results.

Hello PB...

Actually, the point of the tank is no water changes. The biofilter removes the toxins at night and the roots of the "Ag" plant do the job during the day. There's pure water conditions for the fish and a nicely planted tank too.

We can discuss the particulars all day, but the bottom line is, I wanted another tank, but didn't have time for the water changes. I get the best of both worlds.

The tank is perfectly fine at this point. 3 weeks into it being up and running. No ammonia or nitrites. Nitrates in the single digit range.

B

 

[Fishdude3233]

I think PB dosent get the exact idea of the tank. BB wants a tank with no water changes, but utilized a sponge filter at night. PB thinks this tank is supposed to rely on the plants entirely for filtration.


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[PB_Smith]

Hello PB...

Actually, the point of the tank is no water changes. The biofilter removes the toxins at night and the roots of the "Ag" plant do the job during the day. There's pure water conditions for the fish and a nicely planted tank too.

We can discuss the particulars all day, but the bottom line is, I wanted another tank, but didn't have time for the water changes. I get the best of both worlds.

The tank is perfectly fine at this point. 3 weeks into it being up and running. No ammonia or nitrites. Nitrates in the single digit range.

B

that's all good and I hope it works out great, but please just don't post about how great of a job the plants are doing when we both know the bb in the filter will be doing the lions share of the work.
It is the combination of the plants and filter that makes it work and keep the water quality stable, same as in my tank and other planted tanks, yet overall you keep portraying this as if the plants are solely responsible for water quality.
that's all I'm saying/pointing out.

 

[BBradbury]

Low Maintenance Tanks

that's all good and I hope it works out great, but please just don't post about how great of a job the plants are doing when we both know the bb in the filter will be doing the lions share of the work.
It is the combination of the plants and filter that makes it work and keep the water quality stable, same as in my tank and other planted tanks, yet overall you keep portraying this as if the plants are solely responsible for water quality.
that's all I'm saying/pointing out.

Hello again PB...

To clear things, what I have is a small, internal filter and media that's moving water through it. I have a large, Chinese Evergreen with a sizeable root ball emersed in the tank water.

I don't have a large fish load, about 30 or so Guppies, mostly fry and some a bit larger in the tank. I used the smaller fish, so as not to put too much waste into the water until the plant was used to the new water conditions. There is additional bacteria on the floating Hornwort, enough to essentially cover the surface of the tank. It was taken from another tank. So, some of the waste is being used by the media in the filter and to an extent by the plants and attached bacteria.

So there's no more confusion, the idea behind the post was to set up a tank that doesn't need a water change. However one arrives at that isn't the subject. It's having a well planted tank with a lot of fish in it that never needs a water change.

If you'd like to set up something similar. I'm here.

B

 

[Delapool]

that's all good and I hope it works out great, but please just don't post about how great of a job the plants are doing when we both know the bb in the filter will be doing the lions share of the work.
It is the combination of the plants and filter that makes it work and keep the water quality stable, same as in my tank and other planted tanks, yet overall you keep portraying this as if the plants are solely responsible for water quality.
that's all I'm saying/pointing out.

Out of interest are you just talking about nitrifying bacteria in the filter or heterotrophic as well? As it all sounds to me like those plants will be doing more than their fair share of the work.

 

[Sk3lly]

I think the main issue with this type of tank for me, is not the argument about the addition of a mechanical filter (although i appreciate the point PB is making), but the lack of the most important aspect of a tank.

LOOKS!

Everybody wants their tank to look good number one priority. Surely??

Now it may be a bad picture BB but to me, aesthetically it needs work. Maybe a better clearer photo of the actual tank would change my mindset

On the other hand its been an interesting read and some good ideas BB


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[BBradbury]

Low Maintenance Tanks

Hello del...

The Aglaonema plant uses ammonia, nitrite and nitrates. Nitrates at high levels will still stress fish and because there is no bacteria that uses nitrate, there needs to be a way of removing it. In standard tanks, it's the weekly or whenever water change. With the "no water change" tank is the roots of the "Ag" plant.

The tank needs a small filter to grow the bacteria to handle the wastes until the "Ag" plant gets used to being emersed in the tank water. Once it does, and you have multiple plants in the tank, the conventional filter can be removed. The roots will eventually remove all the ammonia, nitrite and most of the nitrates. So, a large bacteria colony isn't needed to keep the tank water pure. The mechanical filters we have don't keep the tank water pure anyway, it's the water change that's the real filter, because it removes all the forms of nitrogen, just like the the "Ag" plant does.

B

 

[Sk3lly]

Hello del...

The Aglaonema plant uses ammonia, nitrite and nitrates. Nitrates at high levels will still stress fish and because there is no bacteria that uses nitrate, there needs to be a way of removing it. In standard tanks, it's the weekly or whenever water change. With the "no water change" tank is the roots of the "Ag" plant.

The tank needs a small filter to grow the bacteria to handle the wastes until the "Ag" plant gets used to being emersed in the tank water. Once it does, and you have multiple plants in the tank, the conventional filter can be removed. The roots will eventually remove all the ammonia, nitrite and most of the nitrates. So, a large bacteria colony isn't needed to keep the tank water pure. The mechanical filters we have don't keep the tank water pure anyway, it's the water change that's the real filter, because it removes all the forms of nitrogen, just like the the "Ag" plant does.

B

Plus the bacteria will line all the surfaces within the tank anyways


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[BBradbury]

Low Maintenance Tanks

Hello del...

The Aglaonema plant uses ammonia, nitrite and nitrates. Nitrates at high levels will still stress fish and because there is no bacteria that uses nitrate, there needs to be a way of removing it. In standard tanks, it's the weekly or whenever water change. With the "no water change" tank is the roots of the "Ag" plant.

The tank needs a small filter to grow the bacteria to handle the wastes until the "Ag" plant gets used to being emersed in the tank water. Once it does, and you have multiple plants in the tank, the conventional filter can be removed. The roots will eventually remove all the ammonia, nitrite and most of the nitrates. So, a large bacteria colony isn't needed to keep the tank water pure. The mechanical filters we have don't keep the tank water pure anyway, it's the water change that's the real filter, because it removes all the forms of nitrogen, just like the the "Ag" plant does.

B

 

[BBradbury]

Low Maintenance Tanks

I think the main issue with this type of tank for me, is not the argument about the addition of a mechanical filter (although i appreciate the point PB is making), but the lack of the most important aspect of a tank.

LOOKS!

Everybody wants their tank to look good number one priority. Surely??

Now it may be a bad picture BB but to me, aesthetically it needs work. Maybe a better clearer photo of the actual tank would change my mindset

On the other hand its been an interesting read and some good ideas BB


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Hello Sk...

The look of the tank isn't important to me. I'm after pure water conditions. The perfect environment for the fish and plants. If I can pass the work necessary to get to this point, I'm more than willing to try it. But, pure water conditions is the most important.

B

 

[Sk3lly]

Hello Sk...



The look of the tank isn't important to me. I'm after pure water conditions. The perfect environment for the fish and plants. If I can pass the work necessary to get to this point, I'm more than willing to try it. But, pure water conditions is the most important.



B

If pure water conditions was the most important then you'd be doing your 'preached 50% weekly changes'. Wether you have time or not.

PB has a point. You seem to contradict yourself


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[PB_Smith]

Hello del...

The Aglaonema plant uses ammonia, nitrite and nitrates. Nitrates at high levels will still stress fish and because there is no bacteria that uses nitrate, there needs to be a way of removing it. In standard tanks, it's the weekly or whenever water change. With the "no water change" tank is the roots of the "Ag" plant.

The tank needs a small filter to grow the bacteria to handle the wastes until the "Ag" plant gets used to being emersed in the tank water. Once it does, and you have multiple plants in the tank, the conventional filter can be removed. The roots will eventually remove all the ammonia, nitrite and most of the nitrates. So, a large bacteria colony isn't needed to keep the tank water pure. The mechanical filters we have don't keep the tank water pure anyway, it's the water change that's the real filter, because it removes all the forms of nitrogen, just like the the "Ag" plant does.

B

See, now you are being more specific. at first you gave the impression that all a person had to do was use some live plants and never change the water and then later added that you also use an internal filter, but still maintained the plants were the main filtering method.
THAT is where I said to myself "hold on one minute".

NOW it is beginning to make more sense and you are being more specific about what you are doing.

The real test will be after the plants are established, in a bare tank (no substrate) and the only surfaces available are the roots and then wipe down the interior weekly to prevent any bacteria colonies from taking hold, then you will be able to more thoroughly test if the plants actually can maintain good water quality with no other intervention.

Now if you intend to systematically remove filtration until the plants are the sole source, that is certainly a way to go and by doing so you are controlling the variables until you can get a good indication of how well this system works.
Bb, if you want to unequivocally be able to state that the plants keep the water pure, than you really need to control the other variables, which is what I was pointing out, otherwise don't make such definitive remarks.

I always have and always will challenge such statements when I know them to be erroneous or question the methodologies employed to arrive at the stated conclusions.

doesn't matter if it's fish keeping, global warming, baking brownies or whatever, if it sounds questionable, I will question it.

I know that has garnered me a less than favorable attitude from a lot of members, but even so I'm gonna call 'em as I see 'em.

 

[dalto]

BB, are you measuring TDS at all?

It seems like long term you would end of with a TDS build-up.