My 40b fishless cycle log!

[FishN00b83]

Ok, so I started my fishless cycle 4 days ago, and I think I'm getting some crazy readings already. Here is what I just got.

Day 4:
Ph - 7.2
Ammonia - 2
Nitrites - 2 or 5 (I cant really tell)
Nitrates - 30 (its in between the orange and red)

Is it really possible that this could of happened this fast? I know from having the 5g tank how my water is out of the tap, so I know it's not the water. I have 80lbs of Eco Complete and a bunch of driftwood soaking in the tank. Is this normal?

 

[librarygirl]

Holy smokes! lol

It's probably the Eco Complete: "The Eco-Comlete also contains live Heterotrophic Bacteria to rapidly convert fish waste into natural food for your aquatic plants. The Eco-Complete also creates a natural biological balance which makes cycling in a new aquarium faster and safer." (From here)

Geez if I had known that I would have used it! LOL

Has ammonia gone down at all yet? I guess we'll see what happens in the coming days but the results are promising, I think!

 

[FishN00b83]

Day 1 I had:
Ph - 7.2
Ammonia - 4
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 0

Day 2 I didnt check because I figured this was going to take a few days.

Day 3 I couldnt help but test the water lol and I got:
PH - 7.2
Ammonia - 4
Nitrite - .5
Nitrate - 0

...and then I wake up today and I got what is in the first post.
The ammonia dropped a lot over night, so I just put in a teaspoon more just now. I'm going to check in 10 mins and see where it is.

 

[librarygirl]

Wow looks good so far then! Good luck!! I"ll be following....

 

[FishN00b83]

I didnt know that Eco-Complete had "live bacteria" in it. It turns out that the type of bacteria is Heterotrophic, which is what most over the counter cycling products contain. Here is what I found on it:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Avant Garde]Heterotrophic Bacteria are an organism that requires organic substrates to get its carbon for growth and development. Some are strictly aerobic, but many are facultative anaerobes (they can survive in either the presence or absence of oxygen). Heterotrophic Bacteria are generally found in most over the counter aquarium cycling products (especially "Sludge Removers") due to their portability.
Heterotrophs can be either gram-positive (ex: Bacillus) or gram-negative (ex: Pseudomonas) which in the case of Pseudomonas many gram negative aquarium treatments (such as Kanamycin) can be effective against Pseudomonas while not harming true Autotrophic nitrifying bacteria.

Another point is growth (which is why Heterotrophic bacteria are favored for cycling products); nitrifying (Autotrophic) bacteria will double in population every 15-24 hours under optimal growth conditions. Heterotrophic bacteria, on the other hand, can reproduce in as little as 15 minutes to 1 hour.
Unfortunately research has shown that up to one million times more of these heterotrophic bacteria are required to perform a comparable level of ammonia conversion that is attained by true autotrophic nitrifying bacteria, in part due to the fact of Heterotrophic Bacteria to convert many organics into food.
The use of only Heterotrophic Bacteria to cycle an aquarium (or pond) can result in a bio environment that does not contain the necessary Autotrophic nitrifying bacteria to rapidly adapt to changes in bio load either from added fish, wastes, or similar; thus often resulting in sudden spikes in ammonia or nitrites when these Heterotrophic bacteria cycling products are not added in a timely or regular schedule!

What do I do now? Will my tank still have a strong bio filter at the end of this, or am I just wasting my time?
[/FONT]

 

[librarygirl]

I did some searching and it seems like a lot of people with planted tanks use this substrate and I haven't seen any negative posts about it (although admittedly I didn't do an extensive search). Plus since you don't have fish in there yet and will take the time to ensure the cycle is stable, I think you're OK, but let someone else with experience chime in.

 

[FishN00b83]

Eco...Your wisdom is needed here hah

 

[eco23]

. I really have no experience with eco-complete other than working with a few people who used it. In their cases it really didn't make an impact one way or the other. One member had the tank empty for a week before adding ammo, and he actually had ammonia rise in the tank, assuming it was either the bacteria or something else decaying and leeching ammo (making assumptions). In his case though it didn't speed anything up and he had some other challenges with his cycle cause he had a couple pH crashes. Others I've talked to didn't experience anything out of the ordinary.

Anything I say will really be speculation since I don't have first had experience...but assuming it actually contains bacteria...I assume there could be good and bad batches of it based on how long it's been sitting on the shelf at the store. Possibly some or more active than others and you got a good batch. However, like you guys already realized...heterotrophic bacteria is not true nitrifying bacteria which actually cycles a tank, so personally I'd be very cautious, and once the tank appears cycled...be sure to test it's integrity several times to ensure it's stability before adding fish. I've heard of numerous examples of tanks appearing cycled with heterotrophic bacteria, only to experience a massive bio-filter crash resulting in bad things.

So, moral of the story...we shouldn't complaint about a good thing...but let's just be very cautious. Sometimes when things seem too good to be true...they often are.

 

[FishN00b83]

Will this prevent my tank from developing the nitrifying bacteria? How would I go about testing the integrity of the filter before I put fish in?

I'm getting a lot of seeded media this week...will that help out at all or just complicate things?

 

[eco23]

Will this prevent my tank from developing the nitrifying bacteria? How would I go about testing the integrity of the filter before I put fish in?

Assuming my theories are correct (which again is just an educated guess), it shouldn't cause any long term negative effects...just more short term concerns. Heterotrophs are efficient at doing the job of conversion, but they tend to be short lived which is why unexplained bio-filter crashes occur IMO. If you look at the instant cycling products on shelves which contain this type of BB, they advise adding it during each pwc...this is to basically replenish the ones that die off. Just be cautious...I've never heard of eco-complete causing long term issues...but again, I've never heard of it causing results even remotely close to what you're seeing.

When the tank appears cycled, I would test it numerous times, and personally I'd stock conservatively at first just to make sure nothing crazy happens. If you are willing to stock slowly...you can cycle the tank at 2-3ppm instead of 4 if you'd like. It won't take as ling to cycle, and will be plenty strong enough to handle a reasonable number of fish at first...just closely monitor your levels for a while and add fish slowly after.

The seeded media will help tremendously...it will also introduce the true nitrifying bacteria which you want to fully colonize in there.

The way to test the integrity of your bio-filter is once it appears cycled (ammonia and no2 dropping to zero within 24 hours of adding it), keep doing it a few times to make sure it is constantly zeroing everything out in that time frame. There are some people who do not believe the 2-4ppm down to zero in 24 hrs is necessary...but it is what I advise to everyone, I have never once heard a negative effect from doing it (because it is IMO the way to guarantee the strongest bio-filter), and it let's you experience all the benefits of fishless cycling (like not having to stress about spikes of toxins, no stress to fish, not having to do lots of water changes, building a beast of a bio-filter, being able to stock fairly heavy initially, etc...which after all is why we choose to do it.

 

[FishN00b83]

I already started dozing 4ppm, so I'll stay with that I guess. I'll keep updating the thread with my results, and once it looks to be cycled, I'll test it for a week before I decide to put any fish in. One thing thats bothering me is once I put the seeded media in the filter and the tank appears to be cycled, how do I know what bacteria is doing the work? Will the heterotrophic bacteria starve the nitrifying bacteria and prevent it from multiplying?

 

[eco23]

I already started dozing 4ppm, so I'll stay with that I guess. I'll keep updating the thread with my results, and once it looks to be cycled, I'll test it for a week before I decide to put any fish in. One thing thats bothering me is once I put the seeded media in the filter and the tank appears to be cycled, how do I know what bacteria is doing the work? Will the heterotrophic bacteria starve the nitrifying bacteria and prevent it from multiplying?

I've never heard of eco-complete causing problems, but I don't know the science behind it.

Theoretically, if it does in fact contain heterotrophs, and is already causing this much conversion...I'd be a bit concerned, but that's just me personally. I have read articles about heterotrophic outcompeting the autotrophs...but honestly I can't give you a definitive answer whether it's reason for worry or not.

Here's my personal concern (again, just speculation for other readers following)...if after this short period of time it is already chewing through ammo and no2 this quickly...that means there's a LOT of the heterotrophs. Whether the true nitrifying bacteria will be able to compete with them is questionable to me. My initial thought would be no...but again, just speculation.

Here's a couple links about autotrophic vs heterotrophic bacteria.
http://www.bioconlabs.com/autoheterobac.html
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Nitrogen_Cycle.html

The people at eco-complete are pretty good at responding to questions from what I've heard, so asking them might not be a bad idea. It might be smart to link them the same articles I included so you can show you've already done research. I'm not saying they're bad people...but a company that sells things is going to stress the positives of their product...while occasionally glancing over any negatives.

If heterotrophic bacteria were indeed stable and long lived...it'd be great for the hobby. Tanks could instantly be cycled, and the bottled bacteria would be awesome...but unfortunately they're not. Like I said before, things that seem too good to be true often are.

It's just the fact it's Eco-complete we're talking about which puzzles me. If it were a bottled supplement I'd be more concerned...in this case I'm just more confused than anything.

 

[FishN00b83]

This is all really crazy. I just wanted to do everything right for the fish and not need to worry about them all dying off, and I get this huge mess in the process. Have I've known Eco complete was going to cause this problem I never would have bought it. Being that I did now and this bacteria is embedded in my tank, what can I do? I have this seeded media coming this week, and now Im not convinced it's even going to seed my tank.

I have read those two articles, but now I'm more confused then ever. What do you think I should do at this point? I don't want to just say ok my tank is cycled, throw a bunch of fish in there, and have them all dead in the morning. Someone needs to help me out here. What should I do?

 

[librarygirl]

This is all really crazy. I just wanted to do everything right for the fish and not need to worry about them all dying off, and I get this huge mess in the process. Have I've known Eco complete was going to cause this problem I never would have bought it. Being that I did now and this bacteria is embedded in my tank, what can I do? I have this seeded media coming this week, and now Im not convinced it's even going to seed my tank.

I have read those two articles, but now I'm more confused then ever. What do you think I should do at this point? I don't want to just say ok my tank is cycled, throw a bunch of fish in there, and have them all dead in the morning. Someone needs to help me out here. What should I do?

If you're truly worried about it you could take out the Eco complete all together and change the substrate to something else? You could also swish your filter media in old tank water or dechlorinated water to get any residue off. I'm not sure really not being familiar with the product. YOu could also start a thread in the General forum about Eco complete and see if others have used it and what their experiences were.

 

[FishN00b83]

I'll start a thread in the other section and see what happens.

 

[eco23]

Personally, I'd let it cycle, test it repeatedly, add fish slowly, test constantly, do pwc's if needed and hope for the best. Like I said before, most of my concerns are making assumptions and speculating...but they're based off research on heterotrophic bacteria.

I wouldn't personally go so far as to switch it. Obviously tons of people in the world use it without problems.

I'll see if I can dig up some more info from people I know who use it.

 

[FishN00b83]

Thanks, I'll see if anyone responds to the other thread too

 

[eco23]

Thanks, I'll see if anyone responds to the other thread too

Cool. You might want to link this thread to it so people can see the companion thread as well. Honestly, it tends to be the same ones of us who browse all the threads in these sections, but it wouldn't hurt.

 

[FishN00b83]

Ok, sounds good. I just tested everything again and this is what I got:

Ammonia - 4 (I upped it to 5 late morning early afternoon)
Nitrites - 2
Nitrates - 80+

I was just doing some thinking...If I just stop dosing the ammonia now that the bacteria is active, cant I starve it and let it die, or will it lay dorment until ammonia is added again?

 

[eco23]

Ok, sounds good. I just tested everything again and this is what I got:

Ammonia - 4 (I upped it to 5 late morning early afternoon)
Nitrites - 2
Nitrates - 80+

I was just doing some thinking...If I just stop dosing the ammonia now that the bacteria is active, cant I starve it and let it die, or will it lay dorment until ammonia is added again?

Complicated question I'm not qualified to answer honestly. First there's the question of how long it takes to starve the bacteria, and second I know heterotrophic bacteria has a dormant form, hence why it survives in a bottle or bag. I honestly wouldn't stress since I've never heard of problems with Eco-complete...but I'd be keeping an eagle eye on it for the foreseeable future after it seems cycled.