My lion heads are turning black

[Albu]

Hi everyone,

My lion heads are turning black. My two lion head fishes, Orange and Shinny have started to develop black areas on them. Orange has black trims developing on his tail fins while Shinny has a black patch again on his back and head. The black patch on Shinny's head started last week then mysteriously disappeared the other day. This morning I saw the black are even bigger on shinny. Also, Shinny seems to be swimming vertically head down every now and then, he seems to like to get stuck among the fake plants vertically. Shinny also swims differently today, he seems to be darting wildly now.

My parameters as of last night was 0.25 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 0 nitrate.
I did a 50% water change last night, 2 hours before I took my last water test.
I feed them a mix of flakes and small pellets from the LFS.
I also added a capsule of Tetracycline Hydrocloride because the LFS recommended it. It's the 2nd time I've done this. The first was on Monday after a 50% WC. I also add aquarium salt to the water, around a cup per 10 gallons based on the advise of another LFS.
My filter is a Aqua Zonic Black knight top filter, 800l/hr. Could this be too strong for my 20 gallon tank?
My tank has been running for about 1 month now. The two lion heads are the only fishes left, BB a fan tail died last Saturday.

Hope someone can help. The left picture is Shinny with his black patches. The right picture is Orange with his black tip tail fins.

Thanks for all your help.

 

[jlk]

Welcome to AA!!!

A few questions first and we can help you get these little guys on the road to recovery! You mentioned this tank has only been running a month and there was an additional goldfish. Did you fishless cycle this tank first with an ammonia source? If not, have you been doing daily big water changes to limit toxin levels?

Next, what are you testing your water with (liquid or strips)? What is your ph? What type of water conditioner are you using? Besides the salt and antibiotic, are you adding ANY other chemicals?

Your fish have ammonia and/or chemical burns but the answers to the above questions will help us to figure out if its one or both. Then we help you to get these guys healthy! If you can also please post todays water results, this will be helpful as well. Thanks!

 

[pip walters]

The black is just pigment - quite natural colouration on young goldfish varieties. From hatching, goldfish go through a number of colour changes, which is why you can buy a 'red and black' goldfish, then be disappointed when all the black disappears after a couple of weeks. They start brown , then change yellow and remaining brown turns black, so they are yellow and black for a while until the yellow turns to orange and (normally) the black eventually disappears leaving an orange fish. Of course, this isn't the case for red and white and other colour varieties, but yours are the red variety.

Your fish haven't yet gained the deeper red colour often seen. I would expect the black to disappear as the fish grow they may even get some white patches at some point.. the fish in the left pic seems to have some white at the rear of the lower abdomen, but unclear from the photo.

As for health - the fish appear to be actively looking for food in the photos, so appear quite healthy. Salt as a general tonic should be dosed at a rate of around 15 grams (1 tablespoon) per 4 gallons. A cup per 10 gallons sounds a lot. Also, your LFS should not be selling you chemical treatments unless they can ascertain the problem... if there is a problem!

Your water parameters are fine, if they are accurate, and are what I would expect after 4 weeks with that stocking.

If your'e concerned that the black is disease, don't be. Your tank seems otherwise healthy, so keep doing regular small water changes (10% per week for coldwater fish should be fine) and I think these fish should be fine

Sorry jlk, but ammonia burns are not black... unless the fish has survived and the bacterial infection that normally attacks ammonia damage has healed, causing black scarring where the scales used to be.

 

[jlk]

Sorry jlk, but ammonia burns are not black... unless the fish has survived and the bacterial infection that normally attacks ammonia damage has healed, causing black scarring where the scales used to be.

[/



Unfortunately, you are not then familiar with ammonia and/or chemicals burns on an orange or white or other light colored goldfish. Melanin migrates to the site of injury resulting in the characteristic black patches on the body and fins. Its a temporary occurrence and as the area heals, the black 'coloring' will fade with time and LOTS of healthy water. I suspect the fish have been through a fish-in cycle and possibly exposed to other unnecessary chemicals.

The fish pictured are not fry and are NOT undergoing a color transformation or whatever you seem to be describing. Black coloring in juveniles of either breed pictured certainly is not 'normal' or even characteristic of these breeds but it is NOT indicative of a bacterial or parasitic infection as you claim. We need more information from the OP in order to determine the causative factors and how to properly address them.

Adding salt is only adding insult to injury in this case and certainly is not a 'tonic'. Carassius auratus are stenohaline fish and long term use of sodium chloride results in host of permanent health issues and damage. The benefits of chronic use of salt with this species (and most other species of freshwater fish) is nothing more than an old wives tale. Enjoy the articles below but please keep any further responses limited to the OP's concerns. If you wish discuss salt use further, please feel free to post a new thread. Thank you

Salt | The Skeptical Aquarist

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/is-aquarium-salt-needed-227851.html

 

[Albu]

Thank you JLK and Pip Walters for your replies.

As of today, both fishes, Shinny and Orange have died. Shinny last Friday night and Orange just last night.

I have been using the API liquid water tester kit since I started with the tank. I started with the tank November 11 doing a fish-in cycle, a fan tail, BB which died last saturday, November 30. I thought the tank was cycled by Nov. 18 because I got readings of Am .25, No2 0, No3 5.0. I also got readings of 0 amm. and No2, and 5.0 No3 on November 26. My last test was yesterday and had readings of Amm 0.5, No2 0, and No3 0.

Other than the salt and the tetracycline, I haven't placed anything other than the dechlorinator. Is it possible that the dechlorinator caused the black color changes? I'm not sure if the fishes would turn black when I would do 50% WC.
What is the right way to apply the dechlorinator?
I would normally let the tap water sit in the buckets for over night then add 1 cap of dechlorinator per 10 gallons, then do the WC.

Also, my wife and daughter are nagging me about the filter being too strong that the fishes don't get to rest because they keep swimming against the suction. Could this be true? The filter pump reads 800L/HR.

Could I have killed the fishes by over feeding them?

Also, when I started putting the Tetracycline, the water started to develop a lot of bubbles on the surface.

Now I have to start from scratch.
How should I go about it?

Thank you everyone for your advice.

 

[pip walters]

[/



Unfortunately, you are not then familiar with ammonia and/or chemicals burns on an orange or white or other light colored goldfish. Melanin migrates to the site of injury resulting in the characteristic black patches on the body and fins. Its a temporary occurrence and as the area heals, the black 'coloring' will fade with time and LOTS of healthy water. I suspect the fish have been through a fish-in cycle and possibly exposed to other unnecessary chemicals.

The fish pictured are not fry and are NOT undergoing a color transformation or whatever you seem to be describing. Black coloring in juveniles of either breed pictured certainly is not 'normal' or even characteristic of these breeds but it is NOT indicative of a bacterial or parasitic infection as you claim. We need more information from the OP in order to determine the causative factors and how to properly address them.

Adding salt is only adding insult to injury in this case and certainly is not a 'tonic'. Carassius auratus are stenohaline fish and long term use of sodium chloride results in host of permanent health issues and damage. The benefits of chronic use of salt with this species (and most other species of freshwater fish) is nothing more than an old wives tale. Enjoy the articles below but please keep any further responses limited to the OP's concerns. If you wish discuss salt use further, please feel free to post a new thread. Thank you

Salt | The Skeptical Aquarist

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/is-aquarium-salt-needed-227851.html

I take it by 'please keep any further responses limited to the OP's concerns', you mean 'don't respond to my disagreeing with your post'

Well I won't, but you are misinformed and as such, the OP will remain also misinformed. I suggest you read some scientifically produced literature about the use of salt in freshwater fish.

We can't just keep giving advice on these forums based on hobbyists beliefs and misinterpreted information

 

[Delapool]

Thank you JLK and Pip Walters for your replies.

As of today, both fishes, Shinny and Orange have died. Shinny last Friday night and Orange just last night.

I have been using the API liquid water tester kit since I started with the tank. I started with the tank November 11 doing a fish-in cycle, a fan tail, BB which died last saturday, November 30. I thought the tank was cycled by Nov. 18 because I got readings of Am .25, No2 0, No3 5.0. I also got readings of 0 amm. and No2, and 5.0 No3 on November 26. My last test was yesterday and had readings of Amm 0.5, No2 0, and No3 0.

Other than the salt and the tetracycline, I haven't placed anything other than the dechlorinator. Is it possible that the dechlorinator caused the black color changes? I'm not sure if the fishes would turn black when I would do 50% WC.
What is the right way to apply the dechlorinator?
I would normally let the tap water sit in the buckets for over night then add 1 cap of dechlorinator per 10 gallons, then do the WC.

Also, my wife and daughter are nagging me about the filter being too strong that the fishes don't get to rest because they keep swimming against the suction. Could this be true? The filter pump reads 800L/HR.

Could I have killed the fishes by over feeding them?

Also, when I started putting the Tetracycline, the water started to develop a lot of bubbles on the surface.

Now I have to start from scratch.
How should I go about it?

Thank you everyone for your advice.

Was there any warning with tetracycline regarding good bacteria eg turning off filter. Also is your water ph below 7.5 - I see a couple of references that it won't work above that.

Did you get any nitrite in your cycle? The nitrate seem low to me and tank not fully cycled.

Have you tested the tap water? The dechlorinator shouldn't cause a black colour. What product are you using?

The filter could have been too strong if weakened otherwise fish are usually ok. Overfeeding probably not an issue at this stage.

Some thoughts anyways.

 

[jlk]

Thank you JLK and Pip Walters for your replies.

As of today, both fishes, Shinny and Orange have died. Shinny last Friday night and Orange just last night.

I have been using the API liquid water tester kit since I started with the tank. I started with the tank November 11 doing a fish-in cycle, a fan tail, BB which died last saturday, November 30. I thought the tank was cycled by Nov. 18 because I got readings of Am .25, No2 0, No3 5.0. I also got readings of 0 amm. and No2, and 5.0 No3 on November 26. My last test was yesterday and had readings of Amm 0.5, No2 0, and No3 0.

Other than the salt and the tetracycline, I haven't placed anything other than the dechlorinator. Is it possible that the dechlorinator caused the black color changes? I'm not sure if the fishes would turn black when I would do 50% WC.
What is the right way to apply the dechlorinator?
I would normally let the tap water sit in the buckets for over night then add 1 cap of dechlorinator per 10 gallons, then do the WC.

Also, my wife and daughter are nagging me about the filter being too strong that the fishes don't get to rest because they keep swimming against the suction. Could this be true? The filter pump reads 800L/HR.

Could I have killed the fishes by over feeding them?

Also, when I started putting the Tetracycline, the water started to develop a lot of bubbles on the surface.

Now I have to start from scratch.
How should I go about it?

Thank you everyone for your advice.

I am very sorry about your loss

My suggestion is do a 100% water change along with a good gravel vac and run some new carbon then proceed with a fishless cycle. While your tank is cycling, you can take some time to research fish that you may be interested in keeping. Please ask any questions!

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forum...guide-and-faq-to-fishless-cycling-148283.html