Newbie with sick fish

[Gauge]

I have a fish that's dying. He's about to be one of MANY fish I have lost in the last two months. I've had the tank going for about 4 months now, and it took a good 2 months to cycle. So far I've done the following to rid my tank of whatever the problem is:

1) Added a bag of carbon to the filter for about 3 weeks changing the carbon out in the middle of that period.
2) Done tons of water changes totaling about 150% of the tank's volume.
3) Added a UV sterilizer which has been running 24x7 for about 10 days now.

The fish I'm losing is a green chromis (cheap and hardy, so I use them as test fish. I've killed a lot of them by this point.) He's doing exactly what all the other fish did. Here is the standard life-extinguishing procedure:

1) Breathe fast, hide behind rocks, and generally swim in place.
2) Continue breathing fast, stop eating, and react less to stimuli of all kinds.
3) Lose equilibrium.
4) Be saved from the arrow crab by the big green net, and then be promptly flushed down the toilet.

Sometimes they have white spots, sometimes they don't. I'd say 3-4 out of the following fish have shown visible signs of ich before they died:

2 longhorn cowfish (both showed)
10 chromis
2 percula clowns (neither showed)
1 sebae clown (didn't show)

All I can keep alive in the tank are inverts and one other green chromis that's been in the tank for about a month now. Three questions at this point:

1) Does anyone have any suggestions?
2) Does ich kill fish before it shows?
3) Would it help if I typed out a detailed description of how I do everything? (i.e. acclimate, run lights, feed, etc.)[/i]

 

[bizzybeas]

What are your water parameters? Are you waiting a month between adding fish to wait for the parasite cycle to run its course?

 

[reefrunner69]

1) Does anyone have any suggestions?

Not yet.

2) Does ich kill fish before it shows?

Sometimes

3) Would it help if I typed out a detailed description of how I do everything? (i.e. acclimate, run lights, feed, etc.)[/i]

Yes

 

[Gauge]

I was told that the UV sterilizer (9 watts, 100 gph pump, 42 gal tank) would knock it out in a matter of days. So, no I'm not.

 

[reefrunner69]

I was told that the UV sterilizer (9 watts, 100 gph pump, 42 gal tank) would knock it out in a matter of days.

This is false, whoever told you that, nevermind *remembers his mother telling him..."if you don't have anything nice to say..."* I'm not even sure your 9watt UV has enough punch to kill the ick during the short period of time it is in the UV. Ick is a pretty tough cookie it might just be getting a tan, also the only ick the unit has a possibility of killing, is the ick that passes through the unit

 

[bizzybeas]

I never experienced ich personally, but I would wait a month just to be safe. Others may disagree, but if you wait a month you know you will be safe. It will be less costly, you wont be stressing out more fish, and it will be less frustrating for you. I know it is hard to wait, but I think more people leave this hobby due to frustration which can be avoided with patience. Good luck, let us know what happens!

 

[reefrunner69]

I never experienced ich personally, but I would wait a month just to be safe. Others may disagree, but if you wait a month you know you will be safe.

I concur

 

[Gauge]

Three more questions:

1) Should I slow down the flow through the UV sterilizer? The pump has a thing you can move to shrink the intake, thus slowing the flow.
2) Is there anything else I can do to help kill ich and/or other parasites?
3) No one said whether or not ich kills fish before it's visible. If not, I have another problem, because most (2/3 or so) of the fish didn't show ich before they were dead.

 

[ReefLady]

1) Does anyone have any suggestions?

The first thing that came to mind when reading the symptoms you described was a possible problem with pH levels/oxygenation. What range does you pH fall in, and what type of water circulation/flow do you have?

Does ich kill fish before it shows?

Not to my knowledge, but I am far from a fish-disease expert. One thing that does come to mind is Oodinium. AFAIK, Oodinium effects the gills first, causing them to produce excess mucus. The symptoms include rapid breathing, loss of appetite, listlessness, etc. However, as the disease progresses, the fish usually appear to be covered in a white "velvet" or powder. Have you seen anything like this?

If you haven't thought about this already, I would definitely set up some sort of quarantine tank. It will give you a place to medicate fish at the first sign/sumptom of disease, and is also a "holding area" for new fish, so you can observe them (and treat if necessary) before introducing to you tank.

Would it help if I typed out a detailed description of how I do everything? (i.e. acclimate, run lights, feed, etc.)

Can't hurt!

 

[Gauge]

I'll test the PH when I get home, but I had all my water levels tested two weeks ago and everything was fine. PH was at 8.3. As far as circulation and oxygenation, I have the following:

1) 100 gph pump running into the UV sterilizer
2) 200 gph pump running on the filter (CPR Backpack 2), which has some sort of air intake on it as well because the filter looks like it has an air stone in it. You can't see through the filter because of all the bubbles. I assume this covers oxygenation.

That's all the current I have running in the tank. Since it's pretty much a FOWLR, but has just a couple accidental corals in it (came on LR), current was a lesser issue in my mind. Especially since I want a Longhorn Cowfish, which has never been noted for its swimming prowess.

That Oodinium sounds good except for the white velvet stuff. They breathe fast, don't eat, and are very sluggish, but that's about all that happens between healthiness and flushing.

The quarentine tank would be a good idea, but there are some problems. First, I only have a 10 gal as a secondary tank. Seeconly, it's not cycled at all, so they'd have that problem. Third, that's a pretty small tank, and the lack of size might cause enough stress that it would do more harm than good. Fourth, I'm only using really cheap fish right now, and it's a little more effort than they're worth to me so far.

I'll make another reply with all my habits.

 

[Gauge]

My Aquarium Habbits

Tank
My tank is a 42 gallon hexagonal tank with a glass top, and a wooden stand.

Lights
I have two 55 watt power compacts and a flourescent on the tank. The PCs are a 50/50 (actenic/10k), and a full 10k. The flourescent is actenic. I generally try to turn them on in cycles, rather than all at once. Typically I wait 15 minutes between each light being turned on. I usually turn them on at lunch time (noon), and turn them off at bed time (midnight). Sometimes I turn them on when I get home from work (6pm) and off at bed time. I have recently picked the PCs up off the lid of the tank to keep the temp down, and it's doing a good job.

Feeding
Since I usually have only carnivores in my tank, I feed them frozen food packs. I typically only have 2-3 small fish at a time, so 1 block of food will feed them for a week. What I've been doing is getting those multi-packs and plopping one brick of each type in a cup and letting them melt. Then I mix them up, feed the fish, put some Saran Wrap over the cup, and put it back in the freezer. I will use it for about two weeks like this, then clean the cup and put new food in the cup. When feeding I fill a shot glass with tank water, put the food in the glass, put two drops of garlic in the glass, let it sit for about 5 minutes, and then pour it in the tank. If I have a new tank member or finiky eater, I'll feed them directly with a turkey baster.

Acclimation
When I bring new fish home, I try to buy from the closest store (10 minutes away) and I have my wife hold the bag up off the seat to avoid as much bouncing as possible. I also try to keep it cool in the car for them. When I get home I put the bag in the tank for 10-15 minutes to let the temperatures equalize. Then I open the bag and roll the sides down to the outside so it floats. Then I take about 25% of the water out of the bag and pour it down the sink. Then I replace that 25% with water from my tank. I repeat this process 2 times waiting 5 minutes between each time. Then, when they've been in 75% tank water for 5 minutes, I up-end the bag (and fish) into the tank. I watch for a few minutes to see if any tankmates mess with the newcomer, and if they do, I net them for a couple minutes.

Temperatures
The tank temperature generally stays 78-80 during the day. I try to keep it cool in the apartment for them, but it rarely keeps it any lower than that during the day. Also, my lights heat up the tank a bunch. At night, with the lights off and our junky air conditioner catching up, the tank can be as low as 75 in the morning.



Should I include anything else?

 

[stresco]

What are your water parameters? This sounds like Nitrate Poisoning. Test your tank for everything you can, including copper.

 

[Gauge]

The only test kits I have at home are PH, DkH, and Nitrites. I had the water all tested a couple weeks ago, and the nitrates were around 5-10, and they told me that was good because 40 was where you had to start to worry. Also, I've been doing so many water changes lately, I seriously doubt it could be nitrates. I'll check, though. And, what does copper do to fish? I thought it was only bad for inverts.

 

[reefrunner69]

Here are my suggestions...
1) Change your acclimation procedure, never let any of the LFSs water into your tank. I wouldn't let a fellow hobbyests water in my tank much less the LFS.
Here is a link to how I acclimate my fish. http://www.aquariumadvice.com/showquestion.php?faq=2&fldAuto=18

2) Set up a Quarantine tank, this will reduce your loss considerably!
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/showquestion.php?faq=2&fldAuto=17

Then I mix them up, feed the fish, put some Saran Wrap over the cup, and put it back in the freezer. I will use it for about two weeks like this, then clean the cup and put new food in the cup.

3) I'm not sure how much difference it makes, but the constant melting and refreezing of the fish food has to remove quite a bit of the nutrition from the food. Freezer burned food, isn't very nutritious.

4) Get a good heater, or two slightly undersized heaters to prevent the temperature fluctuation. My tank stays at 82* 24/7, 80-84 is a good temp range, set the heater somewhere in there and keep it stable.

 

[Hara]

one thing you need to know, is that your water parameters can fluctuate very quickly when things start going wrong. What it was 2 weeks ago has no bearing on today. Your nitrates could have been heading up and be high now. Your ph changes literally from night to day. I also think you are acclimating way to quickly.

As far as your tank temp, I would keep it steady between 80-82.

What is the source of your water? City water, well water or r/o water?

 

[Hara]

I seriously doubt it could be nitrates

Frozen foods, like brine shrimp, are notorious for raising nitrates.

 

[Gauge]

First thing, I want to thank everyone for your replies. If I say something contrary to what you say, trust me I'm not arguing with you. If I've learned anything in this hobby so far, it's that EVERYONE has a completely different opinion. Thus, I'm just telling you that I've heard differently, and if you can tell me I heard wrong with some reasoning behind it, I'd absolutely love to hear it. Thank you again.

Hara

- I thought that frozen foods like brine shrimp would only raise your nitrates if you over-fed, which doesn't really happen in my tank because I have several crabs, and a really small surface area relative to the volume of the tank (cuz it's hex), so they always scoop it up really quickly. Does it cause problems regardless of if it has time to sit and rot?

- I use RO water from a store called "Water 4 U." Hehe, it's funny, but it's easy, and cheaper than buying a filter.

- The temperature is going to be going up. I don't know why, but the one thing all the LFSs here agree on is that tanks should be from 72-78 degrees. My thermometer even has a "Safe Zone" highligted on it from 70-80. Everyone here seems to think otherwise, and I tend to believe the hobbiests more than the LFSs, so I'm sold on that point.


Reefrunner69

- When acclimating, you're suggesting that I should put the water and fish from the bag into a bucket. Then use airline tubing to run a drip to the bucket and when it's 80% tank water, then put them into the tank? That's a lot of water to throw away for someone who has a 42 gallon tank. I will have to mix more at a time, but I will give it a shot, man. My acclimation procedure is a bigger pain, probably. We'll have to see.

- You run your quarentine tank without a filter? Just an airstone? How do you keep the fish from having to deal with the tank cycling? Seems like your ammonia and nitrites would go nuts in half a day. If I read it right, you said to use water from your display tank. Does that give you enough healthy bacteria to keep the tank in line? Also, how big of fish do you recommend using this procedure on (with a 10 gallon tank)? Finally, what do you use to medicate for ich and other types of disease/parasites?

 

[reefrunner69]

You run your quarentine tank without a filter? Just an airstone?

No it uses a sponge filter.

How do you keep the fish from having to deal with the tank cycling?

You can either keep the tank running all the time, keeping a source of ammonia in there, or you can (after sterilizing the filter), put it in your sump and keep up a colony of bacteria, then it is ready to go when ever you get a new fish.

If I read it right, you said to use water from your display tank. Does that give you enough healthy bacteria to keep the tank in line?

Nope, see above I use water from the display tank for acclimation purposes, I want the water to almost identical in the quarantine tank as it is in the display tank.

Finally, what do you use to medicate for ich and other types of disease/parasites?

What I use to medicate, really depends on the parasite or desease and the fish that has it. Typically I use copper sulfate for ick and velvet, for any scaleless fish your going to want to use something like Hyposalinity.

but the one thing all the LFSs here agree on is that tanks should be from 72-78 degrees.

This is very old school and I would say 72 is way on the low side. Even several years ago when I conformed to this line of thought, I would say the range was 74-80. Check out this article on salinity and temp
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1997/nov/features/1/default.asp

 

[steve-s]

1) 100 gph pump running into the UV sterilizer
2) 200 gph pump running on the filter (CPR Backpack 2), which has some sort of air intake on it as well because the filter looks like it has an air stone in it. You can't see through the filter because of all the bubbles. I assume this covers oxygenation.

That's all the current I have running in the tank. Since it's pretty much a FOWLR, but has just a couple accidental corals in it (came on LR), current was a lesser issue in my mind. Especially since I want a Longhorn Cowfish, which has never been noted for its swimming prowess.

This part concerns me. The GPH through the UV will be somewhat reduced due to resistance from the chamber and HP back to the tank. The 200 GPH skimmer is a decent flow and will oxygenate the water moving through it, but IME skimmers are a poor choice to use as water flow throughout the tank.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Hara]

I thought that frozen foods like brine shrimp would only raise your nitrates if you over-fed, which doesn't really happen in my tank because I have several crabs, and a really small surface area relative to the volume of the tank (cuz it's hex), so they always scoop it up really quickly. Does it cause problems regardless of if it has time to sit and rot?

You are getting nitrates from somewhere, or they would be at zero. I am sure the fish miss a piece or two. Also, the freezing, thawing,freezing,thawing process breaks down the substance of the food itself..I am sure you get some "mushy" stuff. That doesnt get eaten.
One other point about brine is that it is not very nutritious to start with.


As far as your thermometer goes, they use a very broad temp range as there are some fish that require cooler temps. Yours dont tho. Also, higher temps speed up the life cycle of the ich itself. Therefore it should die off quicker.