Newbie with sick fish

[Gauge]

I've made up my mind. I'm going to do things the right way and get all the fish out of my tank for six weeks. I may also do what I was saying before about lowering the water level in the tank and slowing down the flow through the UV sterilizer. Anything to help eliminate whatever is causing my problems. Then, I can also make a huge water change right before I add all the fish back into the tank. I started mixing water in my 10 gallon tank last night. I didn't know if it would be for a water change or for filling the QT tank, but it's going to be the latter. Tonight I'm going to toss the invincible chromis in there to start cycling it.

What do you guys think I should do with the bi-color blenny, though? I seriously doubt he's going to like life in a 10-gallon tank with a chromis and no substrate. He might die and save me the trouble worrying about it (everyone else did), but if he doesn't...

 

[Gauge]

Well, Steve-S, I have decided to go with your idea. I agree that I should do the right thing for the right reasons. I'm just going to have to learn the patience that I haven't shown thusfar.

However, short layover or not, after six weeks in a 10-gallon tank that is not cycled, don't you think the nitrites and ammonia levels will get lethal real quick? Also, see above about the question of the blenny being in the tank.

I am not going to use water from the main tank since it is already infected. I should use a fresh batch of water for the QT tank in that case, shouldn't I?

 

[stresco]

A QT does not really need to cycle. It just needs some of the filter media from the main tank to kick start the bio filtration. A simple corner filter, heater and a power head. Plus possibley water from the main tank to match PH and salinity. You are overthinking the situation. This is not a new ecosystem you are setting up but simply a short layover for the fish.

I'm afraid that i have to disagree with this. I did not have a QT set up and my fish developed ich. In hurry, i set up a 10gal QT tank with and did not wait for it to cycle. I tried using the water from my main tank to establish a bioload, and was using it to do water changes in the QT. Even with water cahnges every other day I could not stay on top of the amonia and nitrite spikes and almost lost my Purlpe Tang and Harlequin Tuskfish this way. When they were near death, i placed them both back into the main tank and dosed te the tank wiht No-Ich. I also dosed the tank with garlicguard and soaked their food in it. I am happy to say that both fish have pulled through and do not see any re-infestation of ich (yet. You never know). I now have a fully cycled QT set up and ready.

 

[reefrunner69]

I may also do what I was saying before about lowering the water level in the tank and slowing down the flow through the UV sterilizer. Anything to help eliminate whatever is causing my problems.

I would not do this, keeping the tank fishless for 6 weeks will erradicate the parasite. I think if you do what you propose, you will find it difficult to maintain a biological filter in your main tank. If you simply remove the fish...you can add a source of ammonia to the tank and keep the bacterias responsible for nitrification and denitrificaion from starving.

Tonight I'm going to toss the invincible chromis in there to start cycling it.

Damsels are not as invincible as you think Make sure to do a slow acclimation for this fish, or better yet, take the 10g from qt and put it in a rubbermaid trash can (new, bought for fish tank use) or a couple 5g buckets and fill the qt with water from the main tank.

What do you guys think I should do with the bi-color blenny, though? I seriously doubt he's going to like life in a 10-gallon tank with a chromis and no substrate.

I would put him in the QT, make sure you provide plenty of hiding spaces for all the fish, I use PVC elbows, Tees, etc...for this.

 

[Gauge]

Reefrunner, I know I've asked you this before, but what do you recommend as the source of ammonia?

Also, my UV sterilizer recommends 100-200 gph pump, and I'm using a 100gph. Should I slow it down to 50 gph for extra exposure time? Or do you trust the manufacturer's recommendation?

 

[steve-s]

Thanks Guage, I applaud the possitive attitude and your descision.

I am not going to use water from the main tank since it is already infected. I should use a fresh batch of water for the QT tank in that case, shouldn't I?

No. Using the tank water is still the best method of starting a QT tank especially when fish are in need of treatment right away. Any parasite that comes with it will not last long. The free swimming theront is the weekest stage in the life cycle and the easiest to eliminate. Once the water is transfered you just need to make sure the temperature is stable prior to transfering the fish.

Tonight I'm going to toss the invincible chromis in there to start cycling it.

Not neccessary. Just take some bio media from the filtration system in the main tank and place that is the filter to be used in the QT. Do not use the same filter set up that is being used on the main tank unless treating via hyposalinity.

What do you guys think I should do with the bi-color blenny, though? I seriously doubt he's going to like life in a 10-gallon tank with a chromis and no substrate

Go to your local hardware store and pick up some short pieces of PVC piping. It's great for making hiding spaces and easily cleaned. Some laying on the side, some straight up.

don't you think the nitrites and ammonia levels will get lethal real quick?

Small water changes will take care of anything that arises, plus a good ammonia binder like Prime or similar. Just remember to be mindful of the salinity and PH of the new water being added to the QT.

I may also do what I was saying before about lowering the water level in the tank and slowing down the flow through the UV sterilizer

Leaving the tank fallow for 6 weeks will take care of the problem. I would really just maintain the tank as is and use the time to get things on the straight and narrow. 8)

Did I miss anything

Cheers
Steve

 

[Gauge]

What should I medicate the QT tank with, and what should I expect it to cost? I assume I can go with a copper-based med?

Also, a completely unrelated questions, but one that is necessary... is there anything wrong with mixing some water up, putting it in air-tight jugs and hanging onto it for a few weeks for small water changes and such?

 

[steve-s]

What should I medicate the QT tank with, and what should I expect it to cost? I assume I can go with a copper-based med?

If treating with copper, Cupramine will be the best and least stressful to the fish. You will just need a proper copper test kit to monitor the copper levels.

If using Hyposalinity, you just need monitor the salinity and PH/alk.

Also, a completely unrelated questions, but one that is necessary... is there anything wrong with mixing some water up, putting it in air-tight jugs and hanging onto it for a few weeks for small water changes and such?

You can keep water already mixed but do not seal it tight. That will drastically lower the PH. After it is prepared, use a heater and PH to keep in oxygenated.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Gauge]

Well, it looks to me like we've got a thoroughly laid-out plan for getting rid of any parasites I have. Can you guys think of *anything* else I should change or do that might help my tank situation? I will be **SO** upset if fish are still dying after this. I want to do everything I can to make it perfect in my tank. I've been killing fish for 3-4 months. Another month and a half of having no fish followed by realizing the problem isn't solved will be just too much. That's a half a year of fish masacre.

Things I've noted so far:

1) change feeding habbits
2) QT tank for new arrivals and sick fish
3) change acclimation process


Anything else that you guys heard me say that I should change? Everyone in agreement that my oxygenation and PH are okay? Anyone have any questions about how I do things so they can make suggestions?

Also, I was thinking about cleaning out my backpack filter. It's got a lot of... well, junk I would call it, in it. I can't get my hands in that small thing to scrub. I thought maybe I should soak it in something to get rid of all the crud. Perhaps it's rotting stuff that I should be trying to eliminate. The guy at the LFS sited it as a possible cause of my 2-month cycle.

 

[Gauge]

Oh, one other thing...

Steve-S: You said that I should use some biomedia from the main tank's filter to jumpstart the filter in the QT tank, but then said not to use the same type of filter on the QT tank if treating with hyposalinity. First of all, why? Secondly, I have a Penguin 125 (biowheel setup) on the QT tank. I assume that's okay, and I should take a couple of the bioballs out of the backpack filter on the main tank and put them in the penguin to get it going?

 

[steve-s]

Steve-S: You said that I should use some biomedia from the main tank's filter to jumpstart the filter in the QT tank, but then said not to use the same type of filter on the QT tank if treating with hyposalinity.

Actually, I said do not use the same filter currently being used on the main tank if using copper. Copper will most likley be transfered back to the main tank later which would cause you more headaches.

If using hyposalinity, that would be fine. Hyposalinity will not kill benificial bacteria and will not cause any issues if switched back to the main tank.

Secondly, I have a Penguin 125 (biowheel setup) on the QT tank. I assume that's okay, and I should take a couple of the bioballs out of the backpack filter on the main tank and put them in the penguin to get it going?

That is a perfect solution and quite honestly all the filtration you need, The bio ball will transfer the needed bacteria. You can actually ignore the above info if that's what you have planned.

Cheers
Steve

 

[steve-s]

Anything else that you guys heard me say that I should change? Everyone in agreement that my oxygenation and PH are okay? Anyone have any questions about how I do things so they can make suggestions?

If the only water movement is the UV and skimmer, I would still suggest at least one additional power head inside the tank at the surface. I still don't think you've mentioned whether the tank is covered or not?

Also, I was thinking about cleaning out my backpack filter. It's got a lot of... well, junk I would call it, in it. I can't get my hands in that small thing to scrub. I thought maybe I should soak it in something to get rid of all the crud. Perhaps it's rotting stuff that I should be trying to eliminate. The guy at the LFS sited it as a possible cause of my 2-month cycle.

Always a good idea to keep equipment from becoming a nuisance but I would suggest simply rinsing the bio mater. You really do not need to "scrub" it clean. Syphon some tank water into a small pail and then remove the bio material from the skimmer/filter and briskly swish in the pail. That really should do the trick and in the process will not eliminate any beneficial bacteria.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Gauge]

I still don't think you've mentioned whether the tank is covered or not?

Yeah, it's got a glass top on it. And, if you've seen a glass top on a hex tank, they seem to leave less of an opening in the back than most tops do.


As far as the powerhead goes, I'm certainly okay with adding one. I have two questions about that, though:

1) Do you think that oxygenation, given my 200 gph filter and 100gph pump on the UV sterilizer could possibly have killed any fish thusfar? I've only seen ich on about 1/3 of them, and one of the clowns had some white film all over it. Other than that, they didn't die from any visible causes.

2) My dream fish is a longhorn cowfish. I know they're not terribly good swimmers. Do you think an additional 100 gph pump is too much for a cowfish? Or do you think I should go higher than that? That's just the only PH I have to spare at the moment. Beyond that I have to go buy one.

 

[reefrunner69]

1) Do you think that oxygenation, given my 200 gph filter and 100gph pump on the UV sterilizer could possibly have killed any fish thusfar?

I think if O2 levels in the tank dropped at night (which is common) and your fish were infected with Oodinium or Cryptocarryon, then the lowered O2 level could play a part in their death. Both C. irritans and Oodinium attack the gills first, with lowered O2 levels and parasitic infestation of the gills some of your fish could have asphyxiated. The surface area of a Hex tank is very low compared to the volume, which makes it that much more difficult to keep the O2 level at saturation. Your filter could very well be a drain on your oxygenation, the bacteria in the biomedia will have to pull their O2 from the water (assuming the biomaterial is submerged), the oxygenation of your filter will only be if the discharge causes turbulance at the surface. Another thing about your filter...the pump may be rated for 200 gph, but there is head pressure on that pump, it is likely that you are only getting 100-125 gph from it. Same goes for your skimmer.

Other than that, they didn't die from any visible causes.

Everyone in this hobby has lost fish "for no apparent reason", some of your fish death may be simply unexplainable, we are working on fixing your problem, but sometimes your gonna lose fish.

2) My dream fish is a longhorn cowfish. I know they're not terribly good swimmers. Do you think an additional 100 gph pump is too much for a cowfish? Or do you think I should go higher than that? That's just the only PH I have to spare at the moment. Beyond that I have to go buy one.

I think you may eventually want to go with more than that, but anything is better than nothing right now. What ever you use, point the discharge at the surface (gas exchange takes place at the surface) and diffuse it a bit and you shouldn't have a problem. You may either want to uncover the tank, or have a small fan blowing into the open space in the back, CO2 is heavier than O2 and if there is no air movement under the top....there will be little gas exchange. Just a small amount of movement should suffice.

 

[Gauge]

I don't remember who was saying this earlier... I think it was you, Reefrunner, but I'm now seeing the folly of hex tanks.

The tops on them aren't very friendly. Lights don't fit them well. The sides don't lend themselves to attaching things to them. I'd really like to lift my lights off the top of the tank so I can take the top off, but I can't. There's no way to attach any type of stand to the hex tank. Getting my UV sterilizer on my hex tank was a real chore, for example. You're absolutely right about the survace area vs. the volume.

I don't know if these things would all apply to a corner tank, but I hope not. I'd really like to have one. The longer sides would be a bonus, but the lighting would still be strange, and they are pretty deep in comparison to their surface area and volume.

 

[Gauge]

I managed to get the lights on the tank without the top on there. They're a little precarious, but not too bad. I think I might look for some ways to get them a little more securely on there when I stop by Home Depot to get the PVC elbows and such. Does leaving the top off the tank have any detrimental effects on the tank in general? I know most LFS's have them lidless.

Also, I don't have a light set for my QT tank. Do you think it's necessary if it's in a lit room?

 

[reefrunner69]

Does leaving the top off the tank have any detrimental effects on the tank in general?

Nope, just be carteful not to drop things in it, You'll also need to be careful with fish selection, don't get fish that are prone to jumping. You might consider getting some eggcrate (flourescent lighting diffuser) from HD and create a frame for your lights to sit on.

Also, I don't have a light set for my QT tank. Do you think it's necessary if it's in a lit room?

No, it's not necessary, I do not light my QT tank.

 

[Gauge]

To my dismay, I've found that my penguin filter is dead. It no longer works. I'm going to have to get a sponge filter, then, because the cost is so low. Anyway, I'm going to be cycling the tank, of course. I had planned on putting the chromis in there to get the cycle going and then adding the blenny after that. However, I just saw the blenny pay a couple visits to the cleaner shrimp, so I think he might need to go first... I have two questions...

1) Are blennies fairly hardy? If not, I may not throw him in there first.
2) Should I move the cleaner shrimp in with them to help out, or will the hyposalinity stuff do the trick itself? Or will it kill the shrimp?

 

[reefrunner69]

I've found that my penguin filter is dead. It no longer works.

Call Marineland, penguin and emperors have a sealed motor, since you can't replace it...they are guaranteed for life 8) You should be able to have it replaced free of charge.

1) Are blennies fairly hardy? If not, I may not throw him in there first.

You should put all your fish in the QT, the display will not be fishless and the 4-6 week clock won't start until the last fish leaves the display tank.

2) Should I move the cleaner shrimp in with them to help out, or will the hyposalinity stuff do the trick itself? Or will it kill the shrimp?

Leave the shrimp where it is.

 

[Gauge]

I went to the LFS last night and bought a boatload of stuff:

300 watt heater
bigger net
sponge filter and air pump (the penguin filter was broken)
copper treatment (they didn't have hyposalinity
copper test
few other unrelated items

I took the sponge from the filter and managed to stuff it in my backpack filter without too much trouble. Tonight when I get off work I'm going to take a couple of the bioballs out of the backpack and let them freefloat in the QT tank for a couple days. I'll move the sponge filter back over, of course. I'm going to put the chromis in there for a day or two to see if the cycle is going to be real bad, and if things stay relatively under control, I'll add the blenny. I know the 6-week period doesn't start until they're both out of the tank, but I'm really scared to throw 3 inches of fish into a 10 gallon that hasn't cycled. I don't know if the blenny will survive the spikes in ammonia and nitrites. The invincible chromis will, I'm sure.

Anyone have any suggestions for me? Specifically in the area of the copper tests and treatment, I'm hoping. No idea if I should just follow the directions, or put more or less than they say... Also, how often should I do the copper tests? I opened the box and it looks like a fairly complicated procedure.