Nitrite toxicity discussion

[J.Mcpeak]

No you are correct. A tank doesn't replicate hardly anything of the wild. No matter how much you tinker with the water to get it 'right' it will never be like that of the wild. Nitrite can and will kill that's obvious. I'm not suggesting that if we find anything I'm going to go round telling everyone any amount of nitrite is fine.

How many times have you seen posts on here about nitrite toxicity causing deaths? Brown blood disease? Not once have I seen it. That could be because ammonia will have done the damage first? But I do see a lot of people complaining about high nitrites during fish in cycles and I've not seen one that says there fish are showing signs of stress. There has to be a reason for this. It maybe because they have been using prime, have a good level of O2 saturation, the particular fish they have are less susceptible due to size or species.

How do fish survive the nitrite stage of a fish in cycle? There must be a build up? Before nitrite starts to be consumed? Maybe is tap water chloride or dechlorinator properties. I want to look in to the toxicity of nitrite in its entirety simply because I am interested and above all...it's fun. Maybe we will seek advice from a qualified scientist on what their thoughts are.

Threnjen has the same outlook and I'm sure she's going to have something to say but with all do respect I'm not sure you are following along with the spirit of the thread. It's about finding out about the toxicity of nitrite in fish in our aquariums. Why we want to know is irrelevant at this stage. Every thing we learn opens up more questions and quite frankly I find it quite fascinating. I'm not sure you have read all links yet either.?

Fish control nitrite toxicity through the chloride cells in the gills. Smaller fish seem to control this better. (Most of this is in the first paragraph of your first cited reference) I read what I can along the way. (Quickly, you suggest to me, do I read this stuff? Do you?) that's a cheeky question, don't get mad!

It is interesting yes, educational yes. Science is SERIOUS! Raising fry is fun, looking at fish is fun. (I think the lab coat could make it fun though) I might go buy one! (Thanks for the idea)

Yes, I'm not qualified. Never claimed to be. Those PDF papers are published by scientists who are qualified, they have the answers, the first one which has been repeated and re-quoted is pretty concise. These have been compiled using published papers yet to be disproved.

(I clearly stated don't get mad, yes I'm asking questions, perhaps they are geared wrong, I'm not presuming you're mad, I'm just saying)

I wonder? Do those people who complain of high nitrites do something about it or just sit and watch it rise? There may be an answer in there somewhere.

(Most of my time here hasn't really got into nitrogenous cycle, it's been spent in the new acquisitions, breeding and DIY section mostly) sometimes I delve into sick fish. I only joined recently. Also a LOT of PM time on individuals (making friends and new relatives!) (maybe enemies too, life is short no bother)

 

[J.Mcpeak]

A separate question @ caliban and renjen mainly (others feel free to answer)

How long have you been into fish and how many systems do you keep?

 

[J.Mcpeak]

I think you misunderstand - for us, this IS fun It's not a chore or I wouldn't work on it.

Just visualize me prancing around my house in my lab coat and goggles and test tubes with my microscope in hand...

I'm not sure what you meant about that Ammo-lock thread being "our thread", Caliban and I (and you of course) were definitely all over that thread if that's what you meant.

It's tantalising for the grey matter otherwise I wouldn't indulge! (Just it isn't fun for me) No it isn't a chore, sorry you got that impression, those were my questions I think they were fairly answered in good spirits.

Paragraph 2, no comments, but I might get a lab coat! (If I knew you better I'd have something cheeky to say)

Yes the ammo lock thread was calibans or so I thought, yes though it seems it was hijacked big time. Still it ended up with some good angles on an "oft' quoted issue" (really I don't speak like that!)

Next we should stir up nitrate!

 

[Caliban07]

Fish control nitrite toxicity through the chloride cells in the gills. Smaller fish seem to control this better. (Most of this is in the first paragraph of your first cited reference) I read what I can along the way. (Quickly, you suggest to me, do I read this stuff? Do you?) that's a cheeky question, don't get mad!



It is interesting yes, educational yes. Science is SERIOUS! Raising fry is fun, looking at fish is fun. (I think the lab coat could make it fun though) I might go buy one! (Thanks for the idea)



Yes, I'm not qualified. Never claimed to be. Those PDF papers are published by scientists who are qualified, they have the answers, the first one which has been repeated and re-quoted is pretty concise. These have been compiled using published papers yet to be disproved.



(I clearly stated don't get mad, yes I'm asking questions, perhaps they are geared wrong, I'm not presuming you're mad, I'm just saying)



I wonder? Do those people who complain of high nitrites do something about it or just sit and watch it rise? There may be an answer in there somewhere.



(Most of my time here hasn't really got into nitrogenous cycle, it's been spent in the new acquisitions, breeding and DIY section mostly) sometimes I delve into sick fish. I only joined recently. Also a LOT of PM time on individuals (making friends and new relatives!) (maybe enemies too, life is short no bother)

I read the important bits. Most of the articles sometimes describe what testing methods were used. One of those articles describes how much less sensitive the zebra danio is in comparison to carp and trout. Very interesting indeed. I don't know what they do to be honest. It would seem nitrite is based on accumulation at this point but still struggling to find out what levels Tate considered toxic.

 

[Caliban07]

A separate question @ caliban and renjen mainly (others feel free to answer)

How long have you been into fish and how many systems do you keep?

I've been in to fish since I was a kid. My uncle kept them and they always fascinated me. My dad is a big fisherman so I spend a lot of time with him. He has koi carp. When I was 17 I got my first fish tank. I basically brought fish home and killed them. Because I didn't know the stuff I do now.

I bought my fish tanks in July last year. Still not fully understanding. In 8 months I've learned an incredible amount. There always more to learn no matter how far you go.

I have 47 cichlid tank with 4 firemouths that I'm waiting to pair off and 47 community. Neons harlequins, swordtails a pearl gourami and a GBR. Salt water doesn't really appeal to me. I think when I get a bigger house I'll be getting a 100 gallon.

How about you?

 

[Caliban07]

I don't know enough about individual species. I think this comes with time and being around fish and people with fish.

When I think I have learned enough on the general side if fish keeping I'll indulge in species and compatibilities etc.

I love this hobby and I spent more time in this app than I do on my any of my other hobbies.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

I read the important bits. Most of the articles sometimes describe what testing methods were used. One of those articles describes how much less sensitive the zebra danio is in comparison to carp and trout. Very interesting indeed. I don't know what they do to be honest. It would seem nitrite is based on accumulation at this point but still struggling to find out what levels Tate considered toxic.

It's vastly different per species and within a species group. So it depends on the health, age and size of a given specimen group. Add to that, we have already been made aware of the fact that larger species seem to be more prone.

Like I said, consider any amount to be toxic. This is a sure way of making things simple. (That's where I ended up after years of reading, I still read about fish related topics more than any other subject)

I think the tests are, (make notes) add fish in banded pH groups, increase (x) until a 50% mortality ensues, make notes, add science, show the world!
(My simplified overview) (that's why I'm not a scientist)

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Always fascinated me too.

I've been in to fish since I was a kid. My uncle kept them and they always fascinated me. My dad is a big fisherman so I spend a lot of time with him. He has koi carp. When I was 17 I got my first fish tank. I basically brought fish home and killed them. Because I didn't know the stuff I do now.

I bought my fish tanks in July last year. Still not fully understanding. In 8 months I've learned an incredible amount. There always more to learn no matter how far you go.

I have 47 cichlid tank with 4 firemouths that I'm waiting to pair off and 47 community. Neons harlequins, swordtails a pearl gourami and a GBR. Salt water doesn't really appeal to me. I think when I get a bigger house I'll be getting a 100 gallon.

How about you?

First tank about 8 years old, after a fairground fish died (I cried enough and ta da)
Three goldfish (6months) then I kept spiders in it!

9 years ago, friend insists I go to fish store after my spending an inordinate amount of time face first against his fish tank. Boom, hooked ever since.
(Kind of re kindled my childhood excitement for fish)

3 tanks within 15 months (see you tube, 4tanks2day fish tank (stills))
Fish room shortly after, maxed out at 6 systems (link to you tube, my fish house)
I moved, the Fish moved, the big tank didn't fit through the door of my current address so I built a http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f44/new-fish-house-284360.html (October 2013 full build on Flickr)
Many species over the years, at this point I have 6 systems (one is temporary) one planned and an empty tank after that to "use"

Stock 11 clown loach up to 8 years old, youngest about 5.
Puffer fish (figure 8, Diddy P) new purchase (no. 3)
Tetra shoals, black neon and glowlight,
corydoras paleatus now line bred to F5 (5th gen from a pair)
Hill stream loach, glass catfish, Bristlenose.
(That's it at the mo)
Over the years I've kept many many species.

(Maybe that's why I sound bored to you, I'm not, if it bored me I wouldn't bother)

Tank sizes in litres, 750(900 max) I think that's 189 us gal. A 120 litre, 2x110 litre, 65litre, 60litre, 45litre, a five foot tank (soon to be reef) will be 250-280 litre or 50-60G and an empty 24x26x18.
Also three 28 litres for quick QT. etc.

Last thing is some flat pack glass for a refugium for my reef.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

I don't know enough about individual species. I think this comes with time and being around fish and people with fish.

When I think I have learned enough on the general side if fish keeping I'll indulge in species and compatibilities etc.

I love this hobby and I spent more time in this app than I do on my any of my other hobbies.

(Trust me species learning is fun) it's the best part but that's subjective.

Compatibility/size will cause you the most grief long term. (I have many tanks to prove that theory) that's how I ended up with them, born out of need!

 

[Delapool]

Well what year are they from?
So they say the fish flash from nitrite? I don't know why they would. Nitrite basically lowers the oxygen level in the fish's blood. I can't see why it would make them "itchy". When was the book written?

Sorry I meant nitrite the first time. The book was written in 2002 and says nitrite is a skin irritant.

And ammonia can be made less harmful using salt (sodium chloride). No dose rate given.

Both seem a little odd.

Edit - these don't match what I've read/seen. I also did a search back on twitching fish and didn't see high nitrite levels mentioned.

Planning another search tonight. It seems confusing - fish can die from it but I can't find any examples in the unhealthy fish section so far.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Could be brain damage influence or excruciating pain response?

Sorry I meant nitrite the first time. The book was written in 2002 and says nitrite is a skin irritant.

And ammonia can be made less harmful using salt (sodium chloride). No dose rate given.

Both seem a little odd.

Edit - these don't match what I've read/seen. I also did a search back on twitching fish and didn't see high nitrite levels mentioned.

Planning another search tonight. It seems confusing - fish can die from it but I can't find any examples in the unhealthy fish section so far.

http://www.agriculturejournals.cz/publicFiles/61325.pdf

 

[Delapool]

http://www.agriculturejournals.cz/publicFiles/61325.pdf

Many thanks - looks like gasping was the only thing noted (p464) plus a whole bunch of internal problems such as the brown blood.

The book didn't mention concentration levels where it would become an issue. Hmmmm, it did have some pictures of issues - I'll see if I can post tonight.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Many thanks - looks like gasping was the only thing noted (p464) plus a whole bunch of internal problems such as the brown blood.

The book didn't mention concentration levels where it would become an issue. Hmmmm, it did have some pictures of issues - I'll see if I can post tonight.

There are a billion links in this thread now! The first one by the op is good, it's in the bank already my end.

I haven't yet read through the entire erm? Nitrite Catalogue! Many more hours will be consumed by this!

If the book is for beginners they cover such a broad spectrum in such a little space many things seem to only be briefly covered so as to give you an idea.

 

[Delapool]

It is fairly short but specific though on those points. I only looked at the authors briefly but there was decades of experience for each one.

But yes, it was short on at what level it is an issue and a few other bits that would be handy. Most info from the book is on koi types and building ponds you could boat on.

 

[threnjen]

J McPeak to answer your question on a previous page - I'm quite new to fishkeeping. My primary and largest tank is only 4 months stocked. I prepared for a year before that. I post a ton but if you inspect my posts you'll find I stick to a very narrow range of helping others in order to make sure I'm within the parameters of my knowledge. I try to avoid stocking threads unless I am quite certain I have valuable input, because I don't have a big internal encylopedia of fish profiles. I know nothing about diseases, breeding, plants, so these are not threads I chime in on. Mostly I just help with nitrogen cycling and water chemistry issues because these are the things I know a lot about. When I want to expand my knowledge I pick a specific topic to research in depth and add to my arsenal. I prefer to work in specifics rather than generalities - to put it more succinctly, I would rather be excellent at some things than average at all things.
I have significantly more book experience than "field" experience. Obviously.

I've had some tough times but since I've adopted a more scientific approach to the hobby I've tried to view these more as learning experiences (columnaris, poisoning my fish with an external object, fiddling too much with my water chemistry).

 

[threnjen]

J McPeak I love your fish house!!!

 

[threnjen]

Sorry I meant nitrite the first time. The book was written in 2002 and says nitrite is a skin irritant.

And ammonia can be made less harmful using salt (sodium chloride). No dose rate given.

Methinks the book people did poor research... wouldn't we have seen something about either of those by now??

 

[jlk]

Name of the koi book and authors? Perhaps it was posted but it seems I missed it being that it's now 3am and I really should be asleep. Is one of them by chance Dr. Erik Johnson, DVM?

 

[J.Mcpeak]

I would rather be excellent at some things than average at all things.

I have significantly more book experience than "field" experience. Obviously.

I've had some tough times but since I've adopted a more scientific approach to the hobby

P1, precisely, learn something, move on, repeat. (Sometimes it is good to enter the fray erm, half cocked.) Most of my life I've tried to hang out with people who Excell versus me, that's how to learn, the brightest spark can give you some shine so to speak. Occasionally that leads to dispute here and there but that's only a brief thing, don't dwell on it move along get along get better. I've learnt some folks don't like being questioned! (Sometimes I break things with words, it's kind of like my super power!)
(That's why I consider myself stupid sometimes, one thing I've learnt, some people are very clever!) enough to make you want to quit type of clever, hopefully though they donate you/us/them some extra cells on a subject.

P2 I have more book experience than field work, welcome to Fishkeeping! If every tank owner could and did say that, for me the world would be a better place, some people lack the instinct to gain knowledge, what's happening, don't know, oh well. Move on. (Oh it's too hard) -isn't that life!

P3 I told you! (Or more accurately I expressed my feelings on the subject) science is serious! (That's kind of what I meant)

Most if not all people have start up issues, it's how they are addressed that makes the difference. Believe me, when I started I knew absolutely nothing.

What did I say, water is wet and you have two types, hot and cold. That was my start up knowledge base. The one question which changed everything forever. Fish live in water, what is water?

(Thank you for looking at my "work") it sure makes me happy (tired too)
It brings me joy when it brings others joy, it brings me joy everyday. Fish are the only constant in my life. A few people here know exactly what that means, it's all I have in the world at this point in time, so please keep loving it!

 

[J.Mcpeak]

And ammonia can be made less harmful using salt (sodium chloride). No dose rate.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/ammo-lock-trouble-high-ammonia-readings-help-300434.html

Not sure if you were in this thread or not. Another catalogue, ammonia based this time.

I think that is a sweeping statement that cannot be applied realistically. In certain cases it won't cause any problems. Some situations though, you'll have a tank of dead fish. Dilution is the best thing (that's my opinion) it's the safest cure because one size fits all. Considering most ammonia issues are at start up time there are too many other factors that come into play that in my mind deem it unsafe as a general fixative. (Just add water, like how normal rivers are)