oscar light ick and JD HITH possibility

[Fintique]

my oscar has ick, he had it bad at first when i had his water at 72 degrees f. i raised it to 80 and it seems better. im going to get him ick meds on friday. I also think my jack dempsy has the starting stages of HITH. How do I go about medicating both? I can give my oscar an ick bath in a 5 gal bucket and do I pour the water with meds back in the tank or no? I have two canister filters running with carbon. Should I remove that if I do? can both meds for ick and HITH mix in the tank. please help im kinda panicking.

 

[Freakgecko91]

Jack dempseys do not get HITH. They get head and lateral line erosion (HLLE). HITH is a parasitical disorder in discus and angelfish. HLLE is a condition in large cichlid species where the head and lateral line erode away, forming pits. This is caused by poor water conditions (especially high nitrates) and a poor diet. Before treating an issue with meds, you first need to identify why this condition has developed. Let's start with some questions:

Tank size?
Filtration? (Filter brand and model?)
Full stock list?
Feeding schedule? (How much? How often?)
What are you feeding? (Pellets? Is so, brand? Anything else? Be specific.)
Water parameters? (Ammonia? Nitrite? Nitrate? Again, be specific on these readings)



Before trying any meds, let's remedy some small issues first, otherwise you're treating so they can develop the issues again.

To address the Ick, raising the temperature (slowly!) to 86 and adding some aquarium salt (I'm not positive on the dose, I rarely ever have this issue) will help to speed up the life cycle of the Ick and is often better than medications.

HLLE is Caused by poor diet and water conditions, so often meds aren't going to be a huge help. A strict water change schedule, better diet, appropriate tank size, and appropriate stock list will help the condition, and possibly reverse some of the damage, however, it may be permanent depending on the severity

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[Fintique]

55 Gal

filstar M canister (carbon bags and full media including BIO Stars

Cascade 1000 Canister

Small 3 inch Jack Dempsey/ 4 inch oscar (going to be moved into a 150gal in a month or so

Feed topfin chiclid pellets and spirulina frozen brine shrimp every 3 days.

water levels are going to be tested tomorrow Im getting a new master kit. I have the ammonia tag and ph tag no ammonia is detected so far. its well filtered.

water temps at 80f right now.

 

[Freakgecko91]

I'd definitely get rid of the topfin in favor of a much better food, such as Omega One or my personal favorite, NLS (New Life Spectrum). It's a great food and really does make a difference.

What's your water change schedule like?

I'd also try to get them moved into a bigger tank ASAP. They may small, by even at that size, an Oscar has a good sized bioload. Throw in another good sized cichlid, and you have a sizable amount of waste. Plus leftover food.


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[Fintique]

My oscar has little whit specs on him so Im sure he has ick. what should i do in my situation?

I change them once every week. vacum and 45 percent water change.

the big tanks on the way i know these guys get pretty big =)

I have omega one pellets but my oscar didnt like them I will try and change his diet as well.

what should i do for my JD?

 

[Caliban07]

Jack dempseys do not get HITH. They get head and lateral line erosion (HLLE). HITH is a parasitical disorder in discus and angelfish. HLLE is a condition in large cichlid species where the head and lateral line erode away, forming pits. This is caused by poor water conditions (especially high nitrates) and a poor diet. Before treating an issue with meds, you first need to identify why this condition has developed. Let's start with some questions:

Tank size?
Filtration? (Filter brand and model?)
Full stock list?
Feeding schedule? (How much? How often?)
What are you feeding? (Pellets? Is so, brand? Anything else? Be specific.)
Water parameters? (Ammonia? Nitrite? Nitrate? Again, be specific on these readings)



Before trying any meds, let's remedy some small issues first, otherwise you're treating so they can develop the issues again.

To address the Ick, raising the temperature (slowly!) to 86 and adding some aquarium salt (I'm not positive on the dose, I rarely ever have this issue) will help to speed up the life cycle of the Ick and is often better than medications.

HLLE is Caused by poor diet and water conditions, so often meds aren't going to be a huge help. A strict water change schedule, better diet, appropriate tank size, and appropriate stock list will help the condition, and possibly reverse some of the damage, however, it may be permanent depending on the severity

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I thought HITH predominantly effected cichlids in general not just angel fish and discus?




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[NigelK8485]

Jack dempseys do not get HITH. They get head and lateral line erosion (HLLE). HITH is a parasitical disorder in discus and angelfish. HLLE is a condition in large cichlid species where the head and lateral line erode away, forming pits. This is caused by poor water conditions (especially high nitrates) and a poor diet. Before treating an issue with meds, you first need to identify why this condition has developed. Let's start with some questions:

Tank size?
Filtration? (Filter brand and model?)
Full stock list?
Feeding schedule? (How much? How often?)
What are you feeding? (Pellets? Is so, brand? Anything else? Be specific.)
Water parameters? (Ammonia? Nitrite? Nitrate? Again, be specific on these readings)



Before trying any meds, let's remedy some small issues first, otherwise you're treating so they can develop the issues again.

To address the Ick, raising the temperature (slowly!) to 86 and adding some aquarium salt (I'm not positive on the dose, I rarely ever have this issue) will help to speed up the life cycle of the Ick and is often better than medications.

HLLE is Caused by poor diet and water conditions, so often meds aren't going to be a huge help. A strict water change schedule, better diet, appropriate tank size, and appropriate stock list will help the condition, and possibly reverse some of the damage, however, it may be permanent depending on the severity

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Do you have any sources to say all that definitively? It seems that everything is really up as speculation. Some view HITH and HLLE as the same, some view it as parasitic vs. non, and then the reasons of why it occurs vary from poor water quality, low oxygen levels, vitamin deficiency, and blaming it on using carbon in your filter.


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[Freakgecko91]

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/disease/HITH-HLLE.php




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[NigelK8485]

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/disease/HITH-HLLE.php




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Yeah but that isn't definitive...it's just that one guy's beliefs by going through other sources. For that one resource there are twenty more that have conflicting arguments.


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[Freakgecko91]

I know a few people who have had experience with both. I personally have dealt with HLLE from high nitrates in a tank (high in tap). It is nearly impossible to provide "definitive proof" on basically anything....But I can show experiences that show what I said. You can't say "oh, well that doesn't count" when I link an article....that's asinine....

 

[Caliban07]

I know a few people who have had experience with both. I personally have dealt with HLLE from high nitrates in a tank (high in tap). It is nearly impossible to provide "definitive proof" on basically anything....But I can show experiences that show what I said. You can't say "oh, well that doesn't count" when I link an article....that's asinine....

Nigel is right. You can't just say oscars don't get HITH either really. As Nigel stated its all over the place with HITH and HITH related articles.

What I do know is that HITH is most commonly known also as hexamita which is indeed a parasitic infestation as you pointed out however, this manifests itself in many a species intestinal tract including cold and saltwater fish but for freshwater it seems to be cited as predominantly found in cichlids.

I just experienced hexamita in my tank or an illness which almost certainly fitted the bill for hex, emaciation, white discharge, loss of appetite but most notably the first signs of manifestation began with the pits that look very much like the ones in the posters photograph.

I believe HLLE is a variation on the same pitted head symptoms where the parasite is not present and is caused by poor water quality. Hex on the other hand although most certainly will not be helped by poor water quality may not necessarily be indicative of poor water quality and also requires in serious cases where the fishes immune system cannot contain the parasite, medical intervention. Internal and external administration of metrodanazole would be a good start if hex symptoms are observed.

I'm cleared now. I must note also that feeding a food with vitamin C seemed to have accelerated the recovery although your mind can easily be tricked in this hobby, the recovery could have been down to the meds alone.

The hex parasite came with a fish I added it was already looking 'different' but I figured that a couple of weeks in clean water would see it recover. Instead it transferred itself on to 2 other fish that had to be euthanised before I could get it under control. I believe it is passed in the feces and/or white discharge. The feces will be white also.

The external med will destroy the free swimming parasite and the internal med will take care of the parasite in the tract. Water changes will help remove free swimming parasites further.

If it is just HLLE (sometimes seen together with HITH, which may be where the confusion arises?) with no hex symptoms, extra water changes and a high vitamin and veg diet may be all that is necessary.

Hex is nasty and needs to be dealt with immediately. Fish that no longer eat need to be euthanised IMO.




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[NigelK8485]

I know a few people who have had experience with both. I personally have dealt with HLLE from high nitrates in a tank (high in tap). It is nearly impossible to provide "definitive proof" on basically anything....But I can show experiences that show what I said. You can't say "oh, well that doesn't count" when I link an article....that's asinine....

I didn't say "Oh that doesn't count." But when you say "JD's can't get HITH, it's HLLE and here's why and what you need to do..." you could be leading that person the complete opposite direction of where they need to head. Your article says some species are more prone to HITH and others more prone to HLLE, but whereas you're saying angels and discus only get HITH and other cichlids get HLLE, the article quoted goes on to say oscars get both HLLE and HITH. Just because one species is more prone to one over the other doesn't mean it doesn't occur in separate species.

It's not impossible to provide proof for most things, but that's beside the point. With a topic as debated and up in the air as HITH vs HLLE we shouldn't be giving responses like "It's definitely not this because...and it's definitely this and here's why.." when we truly don't know.


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[Delapool]

Nigel is right. You can't just say oscars don't get HITH either really. As Nigel stated its all over the place with HITH and HITH related articles.

What I do know is that HITH is most commonly known also as hexamita which is indeed a parasitic infestation as you pointed out however, this manifests itself in many a species intestinal tract including cold and saltwater fish but for freshwater it seems to be cited as predominantly found in cichlids.

I just experienced hexamita in my tank or an illness which almost certainly fitted the bill for hex, emaciation, white discharge, loss of appetite but most notably the first signs of manifestation began with the pits that look very much like the ones in the posters photograph.

I believe HLLE is a variation on the same pitted head symptoms where the parasite is not present and is caused by poor water quality. Hex on the other hand although most certainly will not be helped by poor water quality may not necessarily be indicative of poor water quality and also requires in serious cases where the fishes immune system cannot contain the parasite, medical intervention. Internal and external administration of metrodanazole would be a good start if hex symptoms are observed.

I'm cleared now. I must note also that feeding a food with vitamin C seemed to have accelerated the recovery although your mind can easily be tricked in this hobby, the recovery could have been down to the meds alone.

The hex parasite came with a fish I added it was already looking 'different' but I figured that a couple of weeks in clean water would see it recover. Instead it transferred itself on to 2 other fish that had to be euthanised before I could get it under control. I believe it is passed in the feces and/or white discharge. The feces will be white also.

The external med will destroy the free swimming parasite and the internal med will take care of the parasite in the tract. Water changes will help remove free swimming parasites further.

If it is just HLLE (sometimes seen together with HITH, which may be where the confusion arises?) with no hex symptoms, extra water changes and a high vitamin and veg diet may be all that is necessary.

Hex is nasty and needs to be dealt with immediately. Fish that no longer eat need to be euthanised IMO.




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Following.

Is the HITH always parasites? I had wondered if bacterial could present the same symptoms or if that is off track.

Also went back and found I think the last thread on this.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f17/oscar-with-hole-in-the-head-327932.html#post3135269

 

[Caliban07]

Following.

Is the HITH always parasites? I had wondered if bacterial could present the same symptoms or if that is off track.

Also went back and found I think the last thread on this.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f17/oscar-with-hole-in-the-head-327932.html#post3135269

Yeah I read that in my quest to find answers for my problem. There seems to be a connection between the slimline shape of angelfish and discus, perhaps they are better hosts for some reason? Perhaps discus are more prone because their sensitivity to poor water conditions I really don't know.

I am under the impression that the parasite is present at all times in the gut. Just not in numbers large enough to cause a problem. What enables them to take hold is a mystery. It is most definitely a parasite but like any other compromised fish, other things may begin to develop like bacterial infections.

All I know is I know what i saw. I tried a bacterial medication in quarantine but it did nothing.

Feeding metro laced food seemed to be fighting well against the disease but it was when I added waterlife octozin I really saw a difference.


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