Ph fluctuations, new tank, not cycled, with fish

[librarygirl]

Hi everyone,

First I apologize for all of the questions; I hope someday I'm as knowledgeable as the others on here and will be able to give back!

Short history:

• new tank, almost 4 weeks (did upgrade half-way through from a 5 gal to a 12 gal, levels were the same in both tanks); have a filter and BioWheel and 4" air stone
• Temp set to 76, thermometer shows 76-77 (fahrenheit)
• 4 GloFish (didn't know about cycling when I got them)
• I've been changing water daily, sometimes twice. Mostly 2-3 gal changes, sometimes 5-6 gals (treated with Prime each time)
• I had been testing with the API kit once daily after the water changes; levels were ammonia 0-<0.25 (usually some tint of green but didn't seem to match the full 0.25 very often), nitrates/nitrites 0, ph would sometimes fluctuate between 6.6-7.2, sometimes hard to tell the differences between the teal colors

Yesterday I decided to start testing before the change in the morning then again when I got home and noticed my ph has been changing, (although I was running late yesterday morning and did a 4-5 gal change without testing):

Last night:
- ph 6.8-7.2, ammonia 0-<0.25 (guessing 0.15-0.20), nitrate/nitrite 0

This morning 7 AM:
- ph about 6.4, ammonia guessing 0.15-0.20, nitrate/nitrite 0
Did a 2.5 gal water change this morning

Tonight 7 PM:
- ph seemed off the chart, the color was blue, but seemed deeper blue than the highest ph chart reading of 7.6
- I then did a high range ph and it was 7.4
- ammonia seemed to have more of the green tint and matched the 0.25
- no nitrates/nitrites
I panicked and did a 2 gal change

After the water change tonight: ph is back down to 6.0-6.4, high range 7.4

What's going on? It could be this has been consistent but am just now seeing it as I hadn't tested prior to a water change before, but the color blue shocked me as it's usually a shade of teal. I usually do larger water changes but did a smaller one this morning than usual, could that be why?

Should I be worried? What should I do?

Also why is my tank not cycling?! Never seeing nitrites/nitrates is getting discouraging. I know it can sometimes take longer than a month, but shouldn't I have seen some fluctuation by now, even in ammonia? Am I doing too many water changes (trying to keep the ammonia <0.25 for the fish though)?

My water from the tap is:
-ph is very blue, again seems deeper than the blue of the hightest color on the test 7.6
-high range ph is a violet color; doesn't seem to match the purples on the test chart of 8.4-8.8, so I'm not sure if it's the chart color that's off or if my high range ph is off the chart

I'm going to let the tap water sit and test again in 12 hours and again in 24, although I'm not sure how to interpret the readings

Help?

 

[Rokuzachi]

If your tap is coming out with extremely high PH like mine, then it's probably got a gas buffer in it to keep pipe corrosion down (this is what I've been told). Mine is up at like 10 something and I have to aerate it for 2-4 hours before its PH drops to the normal 7.6-7.8.

Other possible causes of PH fluctuations;

Co2 levels affect PH. If you have plants, when the lights go off, they begin to release Co2 so a PH drop during lights-out time in a planted tank is normal. My heavily planted tanks experience .2-.6 drops at night depending on which one is in question.

What kind of filtration/surface agitation do you have? If it's insufficient, I'd theorize that there's not enough oxygen exchange at the surface and it could be causing your PH to drop. Also, if you have the tank covered with something, the gas exchange will be poorer than if it were open topped.

My last bit of rambling is that, in my case, letting my tap water just sit overnight does almost nothing. It has to be aerated or agitated in some way. I've let a 5g bucket sit for two days untouched, and the PH didn't budge. Two hours after putting a pump in it, it was down to 8.0

 

[librarygirl]

Thanks Rokuzachi.

I don't have any live plants in the tank, just plastic ones and a couple of decorations.

I have the filter that came with the tank (Marineland 12 gal Eclipse - this one if it helps Marineland (aquaria) Motor Eclipse System 12). When the filtered water drops back into the tank it's causing bubbles and agitation and looks like some current as well. I also have an air stone. I do have the tank covered with the lid it came with.

I'm not sure if my ph is dropping or rising, though. It seems inconsistent. Usually after I test right after a change the color is teal so the range is about 6.4-7.2. Last night, 12 hours after a 5 gal change, it was 6.8-7.2 which is a bit higher than it usually is right after a change. This morning (24 hours after the last 5 gal water change) it was 6.4 so it dropped a bit overnight. Tonight, 12 hours after the 2 gal change this morning, it spiked higher than it's been.

So I don't have live plants and I seem to have agitation/oxygen. What else could it be? Is this bad enough that I need to do something? Maybe it's too early to tell, once I test a couple of more days maybe I'll see a pattern, but I'm still not sure what it means (bad? ok? and whether I need to fix it?).

Thanks again!

 

[Rokuzachi]

I'm not a water chemistry guru, but its sounding like your water may be lacking in buffering capacity once it's out of the tap. Try taking a small sample and aerating it over the course of a day, and test it to see where it's at (I did this with a 16oz glass of water to find out where my PH would settle).

The way it was explained to me, is that in some areas tap water has a gas put into it that raises the PH to avoid pipe corrosion, and that it's sort of an 'artificial' way to make the water a higher PH, as it will drop down again as soon as the gas is released from the water. The guy equated it to using chemicals to alter PH; once they are gone, the PH will go back to where it normally is.

If you're able, something to do might be to get your water's KH and GH tested to see if it has any buffering capacity at all once the artificial effect is gone. Water with little buffering capacity tends to shift in PH very easily.

 

[librarygirl]

I tested again this morning, both the tap water and the aquarium water before doing a 2 gal water change

aquarium water: ph 7.0-7.2 ; ammonia 0-<0.25, nitrates/nitrites 0

tap water: ph 7.0-7.2; high range ph still a violet color, not really matching the purples on the chart, 8.4-8.8++

I know changes in ph can be bad for the fish. So if my ph is going down as the water sits out, should I let it sit for x number of hours before each water change? But if that's the case, why was the ph usually low when I was testing right after a water change? Maybe I need to start testing 3 times: before a change which would be 24 horus since the last change, right after a change, and 12 hours after a change.

I'll test tonight again when I get home, it'll be 12 hours since this morning's change then.

 

[j2112j]

I've been following this and it is very confusing for sure.
I'll just say what I'm thinking though you probablly know this.

If you test with the ph kit (not high range), and get the max reading on the chart (7.6), discard the reading and test with the High range. Go with the high range reading from then on. If the high range tests it's lowest at any point, try the normal range again and if it tests the max, stick with the high range, lowest chart result (7.4).

I agree with everything Rokuzachi has said so here is what I did before I started cycling my tank...

Called my water authority and asked for info on ph, gh and kh.
Put some tap water in a bucket, test it, add your dechlorinator, test again. Don't empty the bucket. Test it again in 12 hour intervals, for days if necessary, until the reading is constant for a few days.
I didn't add a pump and air stone, which is maybe why it took so long to change.

Then apply the same procedure when testing your aquarium, without doing a waterchange in between the testing period.

If the results don't match, it may help you narrow down the problem. Something in the tank using your buffers, the ammonia or other compound buildup etc...

Good Luck

 

[librarygirl]

Called my water authority and asked for info on ph, gh and kh.
Put some tap water in a bucket, test it, add your dechlorinator, test again. Don't empty the bucket. Test it again in 12 hour intervals, for days if necessary, until the reading is constant for a few days.
I didn't add a pump and air stone, which is maybe why it took so long to change.

Then apply the same procedure when testing your aquarium, without doing a waterchange in between the testing period.

So I should add the dechlorinator to the tap water when testing? Didn't do that, just letting the tap water sit in a small bowl and testing at intervals. I'll test tonight to get a 24 hour reading and then do it over again with Prime.

I'm not sure how to apply the same testing procedure to my aquarium since I have to do daily water changes because the tank isn't yet cycled (I don't think).

I'm just worried that the fluctuations will hurt the fish. Will they last as long as it takes to do all this testing? So far they seem OK, but I don't know....

 

[Rokuzachi]

If you want to go 24-48 hours without doing a PWC on the aquarium, you can use Prime in it to detoxify the ammonia or nitrites for 24-48 hours (depends on the source of the info) with the appropriate dosage.

 

[j2112j]

Yes, tap water, with prime.
Mine went from 8.2 to 7.6, but took a long time.
Not sure if an airstone would help ?

As for the Aquarium. If your currently doing pwc's every 24 hours, test after adding new water, then at 12 and 24 hours.

It is just a method for finding a pattern to the big swings in ph.
I would guess high ammonia levels are more dangerous but I don't know at what level for certain.

Hopefully someone else has some ideas too.

I'll follow the thread and hope you can solve this.

Good Luck

 

[librarygirl]

Thanks everyone. I edited my post above from this morning, after consulting log I realized my numbers were off (so much for memory lol).

Continuing tests. So far new info:

Tested tap water tonight (standing 24 hours, UNtreated):
ph - very very dark blue, color not on the chart;
high range ph: 7.4
So out of the tap, the ph is 7.6+ (a light blue), after 12 hours it went down to 7.0-7.2, then after 24 it shot back up a dark blue, not on the charts. WTF? This is untreated water.

TOnight I put a gal of tap water in a bucket to sit and test with 2 drops of Prime:
after 15 mins:
ph - very dark blue, not on chart, higher than 7.6?
high range ph: a reddish violet color, probably 8.2

I just did a 50% water change in the tank as well and a small one this morning. Maybe that's too much, but it seems the ammonia seems to have a slightly green tint to it although it's hard to tell, sometimes it looks more yellow but then it looks greenish (can't tell if it's the full 0.25, don't think so, but I don't want to take chances that the fish are being hurt).

I'll retest the tank water again in a bit, then again in the morning (12 hours) then if ammonia doesn't seem to bad maybe I'll wait until tomorrow night to test again which will be a full 24. I just worry about the fish in case the ammonia shoots up during the day if i don't do a morning change, although I did a large change tonight so maybe it'll hold.

I'll test the treated tap water again tomorrow morning and again tomorrow night and see where I am then.

Not that I'd know what the results mean or what to do about it, which is where I hope you guys can help.

Thank you! I'll post numbers again tomorrow night.

 

[Rokuzachi]

I would recommend putting something into the new water to agitate it. Even a small airstone would do. If there are gas buffers in it, it would help to release them faster. My treated tap (not in tank) has never jumped back up in PH after settling down, so I'm not sure what's going on there.

 

[librarygirl]

Sorry if this is stupid but I'm a newbie at this ..... what do you mean put an air stone in the new water? You mean in the treated tap water that I'm sitting in a bucket to test (not to go into the tank)? The tank does have a 4" air stone. Sorry if that's a dumb question, just wanted to clarify.

Also, I only have the 4 test tubes that came with the API kit. I do rinse them in tap water after using them. Is it possible the results were skewed because I used wet recently rinsed tubes? I make sure they are dry when I test my tank, but I tested the tank tonight, rinsed them, then retested the standing tap water from yesterday. Not sure if that would make a difference but thought I'd give it a shot.

 

[Rokuzachi]

Yea, just something that will break the surface of the water. I have a 5g bucket I use for my 10g tank's changes, and I used to use an air pump and stone in it to agitate it. Now I use a powerhead in it which doubles as a water transfer device.

You basically just want to get the surface of the water moving, and a pump + airstone is probably the easiest way to do that in a bucket. Bit cliche but there are no dumb questions, not where the well-being of your aquatic friends is concerned anyways

My fish are my life, and even if I already think I know something I almost always get a second opinion because I'll do whatever is best for them, so questions are good!

 

[j2112j]

Tested tap water tonight (standing 24 hours, UNtreated):
ph - very very dark blue, color not on the chart;
high range ph: 7.4
So out of the tap, the ph is 7.6+ (a light blue), after 12 hours it went down to 7.0-7.2, then after 24 it shot back up a dark blue, not on the charts. WTF? This is untreated water.

Well that is very strange, I agree with the 'wtf' lol.
And again I agree with Rokuzachi.

Anytime I use the normal ph test, it tests the exact color as the highest on the chart, never darker. This is because liquid tests are supposed to be calibrated and not supposed to be able to test anything above or below the chart colours.

Here is a link that is full of info regarding water parameters, it's alot to digest though. Maybe it'll help understand what the numbers mean (in general).

Important Water Quality Factors

I hope it is helpful.

I'll keep following and hope your able to solve this.

 

[librarygirl]

Updated Log

Here's a log of the tap water (treated and untreated) over 24 hours and aquarium water for this past week. (I took a screenshot of the Excel file, it's attached to this post).

I didn't add an air stone to the treated water so if you think that would help I can retest.

Both the treated and untreated start with a ph very dark blue off the chart; after 12 hours, it settles to 7.0-7.2; after 24 hours it shoots back up to off the chart.

Aquarium water fluctuates as well and I can't seem to find a pattern.

What do I do?

 

[James_in_MN]

I have the filter that came with the tank (Marineland 12 gal Eclipse - this one if it helps Marineland (aquaria) Motor Eclipse System 12). When the filtered water drops back into the tank it's causing bubbles and agitation and looks like some current as well. I also have an air stone. I do have the tank covered with the lid it came with.

I tried the Marineland 5g eclipse hex tank, and the filter on it didn't seem like it had sufficient enough filtration for that size of a tank. I would wager that the 12g tank could have the same problem.

 

[librarygirl]

I tried the Marineland 5g eclipse hex tank, and the filter on it didn't seem like it had sufficient enough filtration for that size of a tank. I would wager that the 12g tank could have the same problem.

How can I tell if the filtration isn't powerful enough? The water is clear, I have surface agitation and bubbles. The filter media is turning a bit greenish (which I'm guessing is good lol) and I did see a few pieces of flake food caught in there so it seems to be catching stuff.

If I were to upgrade to a better filter, how would I do that? The filter it came with is attached to the housing, so if I have to buy a whole new filter system how would I get it to fit? Or would I just get a HOB filter and disassemble the current one? Is there one you recommend for a 12 gallon bow front?

 

[j2112j]

Here's a log of the tap water (treated and untreated) over 24 hours and aquarium water for this past week. (I took a screenshot of the Excel file, it's attached to this post).

I didn't add an air stone to the treated water so if you think that would help I can retest.

Both the treated and untreated start with a ph very dark blue off the chart; after 12 hours, it settles to 7.0-7.2; after 24 hours it shoots back up to off the chart.

Aquarium water fluctuates as well and I can't seem to find a pattern.

What do I do?

Based on the two tap water tests, it looks like your tap water comes out very high 8.2 to 8.8, and settles in the low 7.x's.
I think I would just use the high range kit from now on and only use the other if the high range tests it's lightest color.

Having said that, I wonder if your test kit isn't faulty.

tap water - wed 4/27/11 - 7 pm - this one is confusing. The normal range should be max blue here and nothing else, because your high range is above it's lightest color.
This makes me think your ph kit is faulty.

Maybe you need a 'wide range' test kit (I know nutrafin makes one), but other than that, I can't think of anything else

 

[librarygirl]

Based on the two tap water tests, it looks like your tap water comes out very high 8.2 to 8.8, and settles in the low 7.x's.
I think I would just use the high range kit from now on and only use the other if the high range tests it's lightest color.

Having said that, I wonder if your test kit isn't faulty.

tap water - wed 4/27/11 - 7 pm - this one is confusing. The normal range should be max blue here and nothing else, because your high range is above it's lightest color.
This makes me think your ph kit is faulty.

Maybe you need a 'wide range' test kit (I know nutrafin makes one), but other than that, I can't think of anything else

continued test today:

1:30 PM - ph 7.2, ammonia <0.25
5 PM - fed fish again (flakes)
6:30 PM - ph 6.4 (um dropped quite a bit from 1:30 pm), ammonia 0.25 (really wanted to do a pwc here but resisted)
8 PM - ph 7.6 (aaaaahhhhhhhh, how can it jump that much in 90 mins?!), ammonia 0.25
Did a 1 gal pwc

maybe the kit is faulty even though it's API, I'll go to the store Tom and pick up a fresh kit and see if they have a wide range ph kit too. I hope that's the reason b/c if it isn't I'm going to pull my hair out lol thanks for trying to help!

 

[ldaniel]

Depending on where you live the tap water to me very basic where I live there is a lot a limestone and tap water comes out in about 8.6 I you use distilled water when I do my water changes. that helps maintain my ph around 6.8.

I would invest in a gh / kh test kit. it sounds like the water you have does not have enough buffers in it.

I have been able to raise the buffers in my 25 gallon by mixing sodium bicarbonate ( baking soda ) in small amounts into the water.