Self sustaining tank

[jetajockey]

Oh boy, this subject again. Okay, a few things that haven't been addressed. First, there are a lot more waste products that build up in aquaria besides nitrogenous waste, so plants and topoffs are not going to help in this regard.

A well planted tank will easily consume the nitrates being produced, so that's a minor issue in the big scheme.

And no, there is no such thing as a self sustaining tank, at least not in this capacity.

 

[Mumma.of.two]

Oh boy, this subject again.

lol that was my first thought!

 

[jetajockey]

I'm not anti-minimalist tanks at all, but there is a fine line to walk when doing tanks like these. I set up multiple container ponds during the spring and summer, and apart from aeration, topoffs (if necessary), and sporadic feeding, they really don't get much attention.

However, this is far from a self sustaining system. I think the key in a (close to) self sustaining system is going to be lots of water volume, sunlight, proper stocking, and a naturally occurring water source (i.e. rain).

The 'proper stocking' part of that is difficult, since the only thing that would be maintained long term are creatures that can thrive on basic algae and plant growth. Keeping a stock of copepods for foraging fish is possible, but it could easily be thrown out of balance. Having a larger water volume would allow for more options obviously. Having the tank outdoors would solve a lot of the potential issues. It's free lighting(sunlight), automatic topoffs (rainfall, assuming you are in an area that has any), and a constant food supply (bugs in warmer climates).

The thing about doing a tank like this is not about whether the fish/inverts will survive, it's about whether they'll thrive, and whether we are putting them in the best environment we can without being intentionally neglectful.

 

[GodFan]

I agree jetajockey except on 2 points:
One is that it is possible. I read this dudes setup. It was beast. One water change maybe every 3 months and feeding if he happened to remmember. I am taking it just a step further. No feeding.
Two I do not think waste other than amm, trites, and trates is a problem. It all dissolves into amm anyway. The plants consume alot. I am talking low light btw so no ferts. Shrimp can live off algae and such (also that is why io said add the dried leaves. They eat something on them) and a carnivorous fish (if small) can live off shrimplets.

What is DTS?

 

[Mumma.of.two]

Typo. TDS. Total dissolved solids. Look it up. And no it all doesn't just get 'dissolved into ammonia'.

 

[aquaponicpaw]

Thanks. I am thinking sparkling gouramis and rcs.

Start with the RCS get them to breeding and producing and they can provide a food source. Duckweed is so under rated. Many people dont realize how high in protein it is. Fish can live on Duckweed alone. not just live, but flourish, I don't think a gourami is a good choice (tried them, but later moved them to a diff tank.) They just require more feeding than some of your smaller species of fish.

Plants are critical to the equation. I didn't know this until recently. but Houseplants set up in the Aquarium offer up superb filtration. which is why mine has been successfull for so long. There are a # of plants that will provide just as good filtration as some of these filters on the market.
My personal favorite is the pothos vine and the Canna plant. if you do a search on them being kept in Aquariums you will see many examples of people doing the very thing that you are now considering.

Just prepare for the onslaught As you can see within this thread, some people are opposed to it, Some don't think it can be done. And whatever else the case may be. But I can tell you that I love and nurture my fish/tanks just as much as anyone here. And I will hold my tank up as a model of health to anyone elses.

I say go for it. balance is the key. Go slow. And serve as another example to show that Sustainability is about being responsible and not neglectful.

 

[GodFan]

Start with the RCS get them to breeding and producing and they can provide a food source. Duckweed is so under rated. Many people dont realize how high in protein it is. Fish can live on Duckweed alone. not just live, but flourish, I don't think a gourami is a good choice (tried them, but later moved them to a diff tank.) They just require more feeding than some of your smaller species of fish.

Plants are critical to the equation. I didn't know this until recently. but Houseplants set up in the Aquarium offer up superb filtration. which is why mine has been successfull for so long. There are a # of plants that will provide just as good filtration as some of these filters on the market.
My personal favorite is the pothos vine and the Canna plant. if you do a search on them being kept in Aquariums you will see many examples of people doing the very thing that you are now considering.

Just prepare for the onslaught As you can see within this thread, some people are opposed to it, Some don't think it can be done. And whatever else the case may be. But I can tell you that I love and nurture my fish/tanks just as much as anyone here. And I will hold my tank up as a model of health to anyone elses.

I say go for it. balance is the key. Go slow. And serve as another example to show that Sustainability is about being responsible and not neglectful.

Thanks I hadnt thought of all that! I was planning on letting the RCS get started first just not sure how far I should go. What fish eat duckweed? I know a betta wont work because they are carniverous. I really don not want to go with something that poops alot though.
I also like the idea of the houseplants! I could get a glass top and just leave off the plastic part so the plants could stick in the back. Not to mention it would look sweet!
Two questions though. Should I do Ghost Shrimp instead because of the larval fry?
Also how should I run the hob? Same as normal?

You know another great filtration method could be like FW clams or bamboo shrimp....

 

[GodFan]

Start with the RCS get them to breeding and producing and they can provide a food source. Duckweed is so under rated. Many people dont realize how high in protein it is. Fish can live on Duckweed alone. not just live, but flourish, I don't think a gourami is a good choice (tried them, but later moved them to a diff tank.) They just require more feeding than some of your smaller species of fish.

Plants are critical to the equation. I didn't know this until recently. but Houseplants set up in the Aquarium offer up superb filtration. which is why mine has been successfull for so long. There are a # of plants that will provide just as good filtration as some of these filters on the market.
My personal favorite is the pothos vine and the Canna plant. if you do a search on them being kept in Aquariums you will see many examples of people doing the very thing that you are now considering.

Just prepare for the onslaught As you can see within this thread, some people are opposed to it, Some don't think it can be done. And whatever else the case may be. But I can tell you that I love and nurture my fish/tanks just as much as anyone here. And I will hold my tank up as a model of health to anyone elses.

I say go for it. balance is the key. Go slow. And serve as another example to show that Sustainability is about being responsible and not neglectful.

Both of those plants are listed on Wikipedia as being effective at rempoving pollutants. Also the Canna plant is used to make food! So where do I get them?

 

[aquaponicpaw]

You definitely want to go with cherries. the babies are small enough where most Tetras and rasboras can eat them. The thing is you want to have a large enough colony where babies are readily availible.

You are right on track with the houseplants. although mine is fully submerged all of my research points to doing it in the manner you mentioned for best results. You must be carefull though with creating bioload and banlancing it with your plants. because the houseplants can out-compete Your beneficial bacteria as they consume the same fuel.

As far as Duckweed. any omnivore will eat it. especially when you remove some let it dry out and put it back in the tank.

I would ditch the HOB. most people do it w/out filters. but if you must have one, a sponge filter is the way to go.

Also Biodiversity, I can not emphasize that enough. If you have enough different organisms living in the tank it is easier to catch problems before they occur. Plus it's only natural for most any organism to thrive when it must interact with other organisms, You are essentialy creating as many symbiotic relationships within your tank as you can. That should be the overall goal.

 

[GodFan]

You definitely want to go with cherries. the babies are small enough where most Tetras and rasboras can eat them. The thing as you want to have a large enough colony where babies are readily availible.

You are right on track with the houseplants. although mine is fully submerged all of my research points to doing it in the manner you mentioned for best results. You must be carefull though with creating bioload and banlancing it with your plants. because the houseplants can out-compete Your beneficial bacteria as they consume the same fuel.

As far as Duckweed. any omnivore will eat it. especially when you remove some let it dry out and put it back in the tank.

I would ditch the HOB. most people do it w/out filters. but if you must have one, a sponge filter is the way to go.

I wanted it just to remove debri. So what fish do you recomend in a 5 gallon? I know its small but.... I still wanna try. I might start when i get the houseplants. It is a fry tank right now so I will keep feeding it until the fry grow up. What about snails? Yes or no? I thought about tryiong a dwarf puffer with snails and enough plants to make up for the messiness...

 

[GodFan]

ooh White cloud minnows! Can they be kept in tropical temp water? (75)

 

[aquaponicpaw]

I would definitely go with a sponge filter then. A 5 gallon will require a little more help. That way you are not actually removing anything from the water column. Solid waste is good for shrimp. because they will pick through it and eat any undigested food.

Snails? definitely! A puffer? No. Not if you are going for sustainable. you will need to feed the puffer, aint no way around it. celestial pearls, white clouds. almost any rasbora or minnow.

 

[aquaponicpaw]

I started my mine with Giant danios and dwarf gouramis, switched those out for white clouds, with much greater results. and My plan is to go smaller I may do one of, or a mixture of these.

 

[GodFan]

ok I thought the puffer would eat the snails (I dont know anything about puffers) So white clouds are good at 75? Also what snails? IME nerites poop WAY to much and pond or ramshorns eat live plants.

 

[GodFan]

I started my mine with Giant danios and dwarf gouramis, moved to white clouds,and My plan is to go smaller I may do one of or a mixture of these.

oh sweet! I doubt I could find the ones on the right but I could do a school of CPDs! Will they eat duckweed and shrimplets?

 

[jetajockey]

I have tons of pond and ramshorns and neither eat plants. Nerites are also minimal bioload, at least compared to similar sized mystery snails.

I said self sustainable is impossible because it is, at least in the method proposed. If you do anything at all to it, including topoffs, its no longer self sustaining by definition.

 

[aquaponicpaw]

ok I thought the puffer would eat the snails (I dont know anything about puffers) So white clouds are good at 75? Also what snails? IME nerites poop WAY to much and pond or ramshorns eat live plants.

ramshorns are fine. At least mine only eat what is dying or decaying. I have ramshorns and Malaysian trumpets. anytime a leaf dies It's like harvest season in that tank. Everyone feasts on it until it is gone. Shrimp included. and then evryone becomes pregnant. LOl!
75 is fine for white clouds. although I dont see the point of a heater unless you are gonna be keeping a truely "tropical" fish

Here is a little inspiration for you. this guys has the msost beautifull setup ever. And he has Gouramis in there

"Tom's Bucket O' Mud (semi self-sustaining aquarium)

Notice the stages and the amount of time that he is waiting to implement them.

 

[blackmolly]

i honestly think you are setting yourself up for disaster. a tank of that size and the stocking proposed, you are going to wind up with a tank full of dead fish eventually. things fluctuate enough in smaller tanks WITH constant monitering and care... a tank without water changes of that size is destined for failure. if you were to do it, i'd go with a 30 gallon, or better yet, build a heated pond in your backyard also, a 5 gallon is not big enough for white clouds, or any type of rasbora or tetra other then the micros like the CPDs listed above.

 

[aquaponicpaw]

I have tons of pond and ramshorns and neither eat plants. Nerites are also minimal bioload, at least compared to similar sized mystery snails.

I said self sustainable is impossible because it is, at least in the method proposed. If you do anything at all to it, including topoffs, its no longer self sustaining by definition.

Sustainability is the capacity to endure. For humans, sustainability is the long-term maintenance of responsibility, which has environmental, economic, and social dimensions, and encompasses the concept of stewardship, the responsible management of resource use. In ecology, sustainability describes how biological systems remain diverse and productive over time, a necessary precondition for human well-being. Long-lived and healthy wetlands and forests are examples of sustainable biological systems.

 

[GodFan]

Ok I am sorry everyone. I meant minimal maintenence tank. Good grief. Now I know it is possible. I just saw a person who hadnt changed their water in 8 months. This is possible.
BTW the heater is for the RCS. I might go with CPDs though. I might try snails too. But only with assassin snails as well lol