Strange Behavior?

[MeganNoel]

I hope this is the right place to post my question, if not forgive me in advance.

We just bought a breed of red tail shark today. It is supposed to be the more docile breed (if that helps at all. Sorry I do not know the exact name since the names are all in Dutch).

Anyway he has been in the tank now for about 7 hours and has spent most of it at the surface. He is straight up and down with his mouth right at the surface usually. He is moving and breathing but I'm worried if this is normal or not. I am very new to keeping fish. We just got the tank in July and got the fish for the tank the end of August through now.

We had the water tested before we bought any fish at all and everything was good but that was about 3 weeks ago. Someone on another forum recommended retesting the water but it is all ready very late Saturday night and so I cannot do anything about testing it (that I know of) until Monday.

Any help would be most appriciated. I want to take care of my fish as best as is humanily possible!

 

[BlazerFRS]

Perhaps there isn't enough oxygen in the water?

I don't really know too much about this yet but for those who do to help you effectively they'll probably need to know a litle more about your tank; i.e what other fish you have, tank size, what type of filter you run, etc.

I hope your fish improves!

 

[greenmaji]

welcome to aa..

did you "cycle" the tank... take a look at our articals there is a SW one about cycling.. the concept is the same for FW..
what type of filtration do you have on the tank?
do you have a airpump with airstone?

edit- heres the link to cycling... didnt mean to confuse anyone..
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/showquestion.php?faq=2&fldAuto=15

 

[MeganNoel]

We have a 65 liter (about 17.5 gallon) tank. I am not sure what the filter system is called but it sits inside the tank against the back and sucks in water and then pumps it back out. You can see that the water is circulating through the tank as even the small plants at the bottom are moving slightly (though I realize that doesn't mean enough oxygen is flowing.)

We rank the tank for 2 weeks before we had the water tested. They gave us the all clear for the fish and we bought them in 3 stages (so as not to get them all at once, they recommended that was better).

We have the red tail shark, a blue gourami, 4 fancy male guppies, a female betta, 3 snails, 3 shrimp, 2 whiptail catfish, some kuhli's and a little frog.

It has 5 live plants but I do not know their names and it has small rocks lining the bottom.

I have cleaned it every week since we got the fish. I remove 1/3 of the water and whip down the inside of the glass with a sponge that I only use in the tank. I clean out the filters 2 times per week since there tends to be plant material in it.

I hope this helps let me know if you need more information.

Edit: I just turned the light on in the tank (I've been keeping them off more the last few days because the weather is really hot and humid). Now the red tail is swimming around more but he still seems to be acting strange compared to the other fish.

Oh and incase you need to know the temp it is 27 right now. It was 26 but after the heat wave/humidity hit the temp inside the tank went up a degree.

 

[lyquidphyre]

Do you have an air stone? Put that in your water immediatly if you do- at least that will add more exygen to the water

Do you have a smaller tank anywhere to setup a quarentine tank?

You either got-
1. A sick fish to start with and nothing can be done
2. Your cycle didn't complete and now you have a lot of fish and maybe too much ammonia which is killing your fish
3. Low oxygen
4. What is your temperature? If its too hot, that could be part of the reason for this. EDIT- i see you posted the temp... but I don't know Celsius very well hehe

If you have another, empty tank to put your shark in, do so now. Then we might be able to isolate the problem better

 

[MeganNoel]

No one told me I should get an airstone. I cannot pick one up now until Monday but I will do so first think.

27 C is about 79-80

Unfortunately I do not have a second tank. I wouldn't even have a place to store it. We got the little 65 liter one because it would fit well on a small table we have.

None of the other fish are acting strange. We have had the gourami, guppies, frog and whiptails for 3 weeks now. Then we got the kuhli's 2 weeks ago and just added the rest today.

 

[Toirtis]

We rank the tank for 2 weeks before we had the water tested.

You ran it...with nothing in it and not adding an ammonia-source to cycle it, I presume? If so, your tank was not cycled at all, and it is now undergoing a cycle, most probably....your ammonia is likely elevated.

They gave us the all clear for the fish

Unfortunately, your tank at that point was ptobably not changed from when you first added water two weeks earlier....with nothing biological in the tank, there was nothing to seed the biological filtration bed, and nothing to alter the water's parameters.

and we bought them in 3 stages (so as not to get them all at once, they recommended that was better).

Bought them in three stages over what period of time?

We have the red tail shark, a blue gourami, 4 fancy male guppies, a female betta, 3 snails, 3 shrimp, 2 whiptail catfish, some kuhli's and a little frog.

That is far too many fish for even a cycled 18 gallon tank, I am afraid....that blue gourami alone will hit 6" long when it is fully grown.

It has 5 live plants but I do not know their names and it has small rocks lining the bottom.

The live plants have likely helped keep yout fish alive this long, but they will not be able to handle the byproducts of cycling with that many fish.

I have cleaned it every week since we got the fish. I remove 1/3 of the water and whip down the inside of the glass with a sponge that I only use in the tank. I clean out the filters 2 times per week since there tends to be plant material in it.

Keep up with those water-changes....I would increase the frequency to every second to third day at least, and the amount to 40%, though. By 'cleaning the filter' what exactly are you doing?

I hope this helps let me know if you need more information.

Oh and incase you need to know the temp it is 27 right now. It was 26 but after the heat wave/humidity hit the temp inside the tank went up a degree.

27ºC is about 81ºF (80.6ºF, actually)....you really should see if you can drop that by 2ºC, as it is a bit warm and reduces the dissolved oxygen in the tank making it difficult for the fish to breathe. Water changes with slightly cooler water will help with both temperature and aeration.

 

[greenmaji]

Im thinking your tank isnt cycled.. If there was no period were any form of ammonia was added and then tested to see if it had been converted to nitrite then nitrate...
even if it was cycled the fish were added to quickly.. your starting a new cycle with fish..
you need to get a liquid reactant test kit for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate..
start doing at least 20% water changes... if the fish does not improve fairly quickly.. youll want to do another water change.. youll need to do this dayly untill you can get the actuall numbers on the above peramiters.. HTH

edit.. looks like Im late on this one.. please answer the above questions asked by Toirtis... Im a little bit more aggresive with water changes then most. expecialy If I dont know what the water peramiters are.. TIA

 

[lyquidphyre]

Hmmm, if the problem is lack of oxygen (which now I don't think it is), by Monday.. well... you won't need an airstone because whatever fish will have already suffocated.
But, it is good to have one off hand just in case your water over heats, or oxygen is low

Hmm, when you add new fish to a tank, in most cases, it puts a lot of stress on the fish. If your ammonia is somewhat high and your fish are stressed from being new... it makes matters worse.

Do a water change (25% of your water) to reduce any ammonia and maybe that will help. To reduce stress further after the water change, turn the lights off in your tank.

When you go to the fish store, you might want to go ahead and pick up testing kits of your own so in moments like these you can figure out what is going on as opposed to waiting until the fish store opens (ive had many late night disasters... and testing kits come in handy!).

Read up on the cycle article that greenmaji linked to to understand more in-depth whats going on.. but basically its this-
fish produce ammonia and too much ammonia can kill them. When you don't have a proper cycle going (beneficial bacteria form and reduce ammonia in the water), the ammonia just builds and builds and starts to affect your fish. When you add too many fish at once, or to an uncycled tank... it creates a spike in ammonia.. that could be whats going on here

 

[Guest]

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/showquestion.php?faq=2&fldAuto=21

read that article to learn about the nitrogen cycle.. you may have some fish losses due to an uncycled aquarium and your redtail/redfin shark may not be able to tolerate the ammonia unfortuantely, and you may get some deaths.

Just keep up with the water changes and get a test kit so you can determine when your tank is done cycleing. Whatever you do, DO NOT ADD CHEMICALS to remove ammonia or nitrates becuase that will interefere witht he cycle.

 

[greenmaji]

edit- but do add chlorine or better chlorine and chlorimide remover to the for the water that your changing..
by the way.. Im sorry that you learned that your LFS can be a poor place to get advice the hard way..

 

[fearlessfisch]

Agree with what everyone else said. I would even consider a 50 percent change if 25 doesn't seem to help. Your ammonia may be sky-high given that you are overstocked. You are using a dechlorinator, right?

While you need to do partial water changes during the cycle, do NOT change the filter media or rinse it with tap water, because that will remove or kill the good bacteria you are trying to create with the cycle. If the filter is getting clogged, you can rinse it with tank water, which will preserve your bacteria.

Most people here have been through what you are facing. It is sad that fish stores don't make people aware of the need to cycle. Keep coming back and asking questions. Good luck!

 

[MeganNoel]

You ran it...with nothing in it and not adding an ammonia-source to cycle it, I presume? If so, your tank was not cycled at all, and it is now undergoing a cycle, most probably....your ammonia is likely elevated.

They told us to completely set up the tank at the store (except for the fish) so we put in the gravel and plants and let the tank sit running for 2 weeks. There was never any mention of an ammonia-source to cycle in it.

Bought them in three stages over what period of time?

We bought some each week over the last 3 weeks. The main lady at the petstore recommended that and said it was okay. I trusted what she said because she has been keeping fishtanks for over 10 years. I thought she would know what she was talking about.

That is far too many fish for even a cycled 18 gallon tank, I am afraid....that blue gourami alone will hit 6" long when it is fully grown.

Again I trusted what the lady at the petstore had to say and she never said it was too many fish just that I would have to keep it very clean.

It has 5 live plants but I do not know their names and it has small rocks lining the bottom.

Keep up with those water-changes....I would increase the frequency to every second to third day at least, and the amount to 40%, though. By 'cleaning the filter' what exactly are you doing?

I take out both the filters and rinse them until I see no particles rinsing out in the water. I rinse them in cool water (with nothing else).

27ºC is about 81ºF (80.6ºF, actually)....you really should see if you can drop that by 2ºC, as it is a bit warm and reduces the dissolved oxygen in the tank making it difficult for the fish to breathe. Water changes with slightly cooler water will help with both temperature and aeration.

I have tried getting the heat down more. The heater is set to 24 C and since it has been so warm/humid the last few days we have been leaving the fish tank lights off. We only turn them on right now at feeding times for about 20-30 minutes. It still seems to be staying about 27 most of the day.

 

[greenmaji]

I take out both the filters and rinse them until I see no particles rinsing out in the water. I rinse them in cool water (with nothing else).

This is far more aggessive then what is needed during a cycling period.. If your using cool water the cold will kill benifical bacteria.. and since its likely tap water the chlorine will also kill the benifical bacteria..
the beneficial bacteria converts the fish wastes, rotting food and plant matter from dangerous compounds, ammonia and nitrite to less dangerous compounds nitrate.. without the intentional production of beneficial bacteria in a tank (the purpose of filtering the water) it will not support life without daly 80-100% water changes.. wich none of us want to do.. I hope this helps..

I have tried getting the heat down more. The heater is set to 24 C and since it has been so warm/humid the last few days we have been leaving the fish tank lights off. We only turn them on right now at feeding times for about 20-30 minutes. It still seems to be staying about 27 most of the day.

Is the light to the heater ever coming on?

 

[Toirtis]

They told us to completely set up the tank at the store (except for the fish) so we put in the gravel and plants and let the tank sit running for 2 weeks. There was never any mention of an ammonia-source to cycle in it.

Not too surprising...most fish shop staff are blinkardly stupid/ignorant/uninformed. Please see our threads on fishless cycling for more info on this.

We bought some each week over the last 3 weeks. The main lady at the petstore recommended that and said it was okay. I trusted what she said because she has been keeping fishtanks for over 10 years. I thought she would know what she was talking about.

What that has done is increase the bioload slowly, which is good in the fact that is has prevented a severe ammonia spike, and likely spared a few fish lives up until now, but what is likely happening is that the current bioload is just too great for the maturity of the biological cycle, and cycling byproducts like ammonia and nitrite are beginning to reach critically toxic levels.

Again I trusted what the lady at the petstore had to say and she never said it was too many fish just that I would have to keep it very clean.

If the tank were fully-cycled, them most of those fish would be fine in it, so long as you kept up with water-changes and maintenance, but the gourami does get too large, and likely would start nipping at your smaller fish by the time it was 3" long itself.

I take out both the filters and rinse them until I see no particles rinsing out in the water. I rinse them in cool water (with nothing else).

Is the water you are rinsing them in taken from your tank or at least dechlorinated? If not, you are killing off any beneficial bacteria (the stuff you want to create by cycling) eachg time you clean them. Can you find a manufacturer's name and/or model on the filters, so that we have a better idea what you are using?

I have tried getting the heat down more. The heater is set to 24 C and since it has been so warm/humid the last few days we have been leaving the fish tank lights off. We only turn them on right now at feeding times for about 20-30 minutes. It still seems to be staying about 27 most of the day.

Incandescent lighting, I assume?

 

[MeganNoel]

Not too surprising...most fish shop staff are blinkardly stupid/ignorant/uninformed. Please see our threads on fishless cycling for more info on this.

I really feel awful. I went in telling them I knew nothing about tropical fish and that I would need to know everything to get for them. I even told the people I wanted to do EVERYTHING to give them the best lives possible because I view my fish as just as important as my dog.

What that has done is increase the bioload slowly, which is good in the fact that is has prevented a severe ammonia spike, and likely spared a few fish lives up until now, but what is likely happening is that the current bioload is just too great for the maturity of the biological cycle, and cycling byproducts like ammonia and nitrite are beginning to reach critically toxic levels.

Are there messures I can take in the next 24 hours that might help (even just a little) this situation if it is the case? I will also look at the sites given here.

If the tank were fully-cycled, them most of those fish would be fine in it, so long as you kept up with water-changes and maintenance, but the gourami does get too large, and likely would start nipping at your smaller fish by the time it was 3" long itself.

The gourami is already almost 4 inches I believe. He really doesn't bother the other fish (so far) except when he thinks they have some good food and he swims in the middle of them to get it.

Is the water you are rinsing them in taken from your tank or at least dechlorinated? If not, you are killing off any beneficial bacteria (the stuff you want to create by cycling) eachg time you clean them. Can you find a manufacturer's name and/or model on the filters, so that we have a better idea what you are using?

No I was rinsing in tap water! Well now I know not to do that so I definitely won't. I'll just take some tank water to do it from now on. Oh and no not even dechlorinated. Again nothing mentioned about that. I was just told to rinse out the filters frequently with water.

Incandescent lighting, I assume?

Yes, the tank we bought came with the lights, pump, filter all in one. The main container for the pump/filter is glued to the glass though you can remove the pump and filters from the container. The lid is also attached with hinges (that don't come apart) and the lights sit up inside the lid.

As for the other questions, there is no light on our heater. It is a long heater that sits against the side of the tank with suction cups. There is a sort of dial at the top that you turn it up or down. You can take it out of it's casing to see how warm or cool it is set to in C and F.

 

[fearlessfisch]

The most important steps you can take right now are the partial water change and getting yourself that water test kit.

Don't be hard on yourself. Your fish are lucky to have you, since you clearly care and are trying to do the best for them. I was just reading a thread on the other page about fish owners who really don't care. Sometimes I wonder what percentage of the fish coming from LFS live longer than a few days, given what they are up against.

 

[MeganNoel]

I also have a gravel cleaner (one of those pump things that sucks stuff out of the gravel). How often should that be used? Again no one told me?

Should I run and change the water right this moment? Or just make sure I do it every couple of days? I just want to be clear on this. I just did a change yesterday (I do it every friday).

Also are there any ideas why the tank is not cooling down more? Any way to help get it cooler? Like I said I have left the lights off (except for 20-30 minutes at feeding time) and turned down the heater to 24 C. We have also been keeping the house as cool as possible (I don't know if the temp/humidity in the house effects the temp in the tank) but Holland isn't warm for very long and very few people own air conditioners.

EDIT: I've looked to see what kind of filter/pump we have. The aquarium itself is called the Aqua-65 Silver (Silver for the color). The filter says it is an AT-881 inner-filter (it says in the directions "Clean the filter on a weekly or two-weekly base. Replace the filter sponges every month. Unplug the filter, and remove it from the aquarium to clean. Clean filter and sponges with clean water only, never use a detergent!! This is harmful for fishes and plants in the aquarium".)

 

[fearlessfisch]

Avoid vacuuming the gravel while your cycle is going on, unless it gets really, really nasty in there. Once the cycle is complete, you can gravel vac every week when you do regular partial water change.

If the fish are showing any signs of distress (i.e., hanging at the top or bottom), I would do a water change right now. With that bioload, you may be changing water daily or every other day until your cycle completes.

Increasing surface agitation can help cool the water. If you have a bubble wand, I would use it. If you have a filter that hangs on the back of the tank, you can lower the level of water in the tank a little, so that you get more splashing.

 

[greenmaji]

you can aim your internal filter more at the surfase of the water..
yes.. room temperature has alot to do with how cool your tank will be.. idealy you would want your room temperature to be at or just below the tank temperature you need.. and is the indicator light on your water heater ever comming on?