Uncycled tank
- Thread starter Mikey214
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone with an interest in aquariums or fish keeping!
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
ashleynicole
Aquarium Advice Addict
Why does the ammonia have to be consumed at 4ppm for a fishless cycle? It seems like that caused unstability. Why not dose it to 1-2 ppm?
Just curious
Just curious
jlk
Aquarium Advice Addict
It hasnt even been a month!!! Give your aquarium a chance! Cycling can take 4-8wks and possibily longer. If you are getting really impatient, seek out some established, seeded filter media to add. It will speed things up!
ashleynicole
Aquarium Advice Addict
jlk said:
He did he got a seeded sponge from angels plus, but personally I believe he overwhelmed the bacteria with too much ammonia. Just my opinion. I know one article on here suggest 4ppm , but that's just one article. I've read others that reccomend as little as .25 ppm of ammonia dosed daily to fishless cycle.
jlk
Aquarium Advice Addict
Building a bioload of bacteria that can handle 4ppm of ammonia & process it completely to nitrate allows you to fully stock your tank when once its completely cycled. Yes, you can only dose to 1-2ppm & cycle it at this level but you will have to add fish very slowly (over wks) to allow the bacteria to adjust to the increased bioload & you risk spikes of ammonia and/or nitrite during the process (basically, fish-in cycling & lots of water changes). Its easier to grow a bacterial colony that can handle the ammonia & not risk stressing or harming your fish thus fishless cycling.
jlk
Aquarium Advice Addict
Sorry, just read back through this whole thread- i sometimes get different cycling threads mixed up on what exactly people are doing! The continous ph drops most likely shocked the bacteria-some time and patience with adjusting the cr coral amount and things should settle. Patience is the key word here!
jetajockey
come get me tang police!
This is the standard response I've seen in the forum about this subject (from multiple sources, so don't take this personally) but I'm going to disagree for a couple of reasons.
First, an average fully stocked tank is probably not going to produce 4ppm ammonia daily. I've done a lot of fish in cycles and even without seeded media I've never seen one spike like that in that short of a time period. Ammonia buildup is a gradual thing, so it's nothing like dumping in a capful at a time.
The other reason is that there are a lot of fishless cycling guides out there, many of them several years old, some of them only a few months old. They don't all have the same guidelines, 4ppm just happens to be on the one that people link to all the time here. Is there some sort of scientific consensus that leads to that particular #? Nope. That doesn't mean it's a bad target, but it does mean that it's not something set in stone.
If a person is having a pH issue directly related to the massive amount of nitrification happening in the tank, then I think it's completely logical to consider lowering the ammonia dosage to slow things down a little.
The "If you dose less than 4ppm you'll have to add stock slowly and do lots of water changes etc etc" thing was likely originally construed by those who have probably never even done it this way, so that theory really doesn't hold much water. In an ideal situation, autotrophic nitrifiers are multiplying once every 24 hours give or take, so it won't take long for an established colony to adjust to the bioload it is given.
In a 4ppm situation, what happens to that massive bacteria colony after fish have been added? They adjust their size based on the amount of food (ammonia) they are receiving, so after that initial stocking of fish, the colony is going to adjust (either bigger or smaller) to compensate anyway.
Just my 2 cents.
jlk
Aquarium Advice Addict
Thanks, Jeta! Its been my experience that 4ppm ammonia (and following conversion to nitrite & nitrate) is an ideal number to aim for doing a fishless cycle for someone who wants to fully stock a tank upon completion. Is this set in stone? Obviously not and there are different variables that come into play. However, the point of doing a fishless cycle in the first place is to prevent any harm to the fish you plan on stocking by having a well-established bacteria colony to start with and not have to do daily testing & crazy water changes because of an ammonia and/or nitrite spikes. If your fish are not producing 4ppm of ammonia daily or you are not fully stocked, yes, the bacteria will adjust downward based on the ammonia levels. No harm done. I would prefer this scenario, however, to having to wait for the bacteria to adjust upwards and be stuck doing daily testing & pwcs to prevent harm from detectable ammonia/nitrite levels. It basically defeats the purpose of doing a fishless cycle in the first place. Just my opinion though.
jetajockey
come get me tang police!
Thanks for the response. You are assuming that the bacteria would have to adjust upwards to begin with, which I'm not convinced is the case in most scenarios. I've tested a lot of fish-in cycled tanks with completely full stocks and have not seen a 4ppm daily scenario as of yet. It might happen but it hasn't in my experience with it.
The other thing is if someone has to add CC or another buffer to the water during their fishless cycling process, can they take it out afterwards? Most do if they have moderate hardness, but if their tank was processing that high level of ammonia daily (naturally) wouldn't it be a necessity to keep it in there to avoid a pH crash?
The other assumption often made is that constant testing and water changes are in order for a fish-in cycle and they really aren't, it's not as bad or difficult as it's often made out to be.
According to the logs posted on here, fishless cyclers test daily also during their process, so that's a moot point.
Fish-in cycling often gets demonized because lots of new fishkeepers end up doing one not knowing better, but if a person is informed on the process it makes it almost as easy as cycling fishless and it doesn't harm or hurt anything if done correctly.
The main point though is whether dropping the ammonia dosing level is going to do any harm, I don't think it will, and I think it'll help the pH problem. (Note that the pH thing wasn't an issue initially, it just became one once massive conversion started going on)
The other thing is if someone has to add CC or another buffer to the water during their fishless cycling process, can they take it out afterwards? Most do if they have moderate hardness, but if their tank was processing that high level of ammonia daily (naturally) wouldn't it be a necessity to keep it in there to avoid a pH crash?
The other assumption often made is that constant testing and water changes are in order for a fish-in cycle and they really aren't, it's not as bad or difficult as it's often made out to be.
According to the logs posted on here, fishless cyclers test daily also during their process, so that's a moot point.
Fish-in cycling often gets demonized because lots of new fishkeepers end up doing one not knowing better, but if a person is informed on the process it makes it almost as easy as cycling fishless and it doesn't harm or hurt anything if done correctly.
The main point though is whether dropping the ammonia dosing level is going to do any harm, I don't think it will, and I think it'll help the pH problem. (Note that the pH thing wasn't an issue initially, it just became one once massive conversion started going on)
Last edited:
jlk
Aquarium Advice Addict
I shall defer to your opinions/insights, Jetta, because they come from greater experience than my own. Will the cr coral be necessary after Mikeys tank is cycled? Probably not, assuming he does not go overboard on stocking. Everyones water chemistry is a bit different & we only test for the most basic variables necessary to keep our fish healthy (in respect to freshwater) so without having more extensive tests, its difficult to say exactly what will happen or what will come into play in respect to the necessity of the cr coral upon finishing cycling (with the exception of testing ph). Lets deal with the variables that we can ply some control over as they come about.
As of this moment, Mikey is asking for help with fishless cycling, so im trying my best to help him & answer his questions to the best of my ability. I dont believe you are a big proponent of fishless cycling but please correct me if i am wrong. If you feel i am being misleading, wrong, or not helpful- def let me know as i believe we are all here to learn & i appreciate anything you have to say. That said, fishless or fish-in, both take time & patience and i really think some more of both are needed right now (its only been @3wks)! If we can not get his ph stabilized over the next few days, then dropping the dose of ammonia would be a logical step to follow next. Lets see what happens
As of this moment, Mikey is asking for help with fishless cycling, so im trying my best to help him & answer his questions to the best of my ability. I dont believe you are a big proponent of fishless cycling but please correct me if i am wrong. If you feel i am being misleading, wrong, or not helpful- def let me know as i believe we are all here to learn & i appreciate anything you have to say. That said, fishless or fish-in, both take time & patience and i really think some more of both are needed right now (its only been @3wks)! If we can not get his ph stabilized over the next few days, then dropping the dose of ammonia would be a logical step to follow next. Lets see what happens
librarygirl
Look It Up
@Mikey: try roughing up the coral by crushing it around with your fingers. The water may get cloudy for a bit but it might help the coral work faster.
I've also read Jeta's and Jlk's replies and I think Jeta makes some sense. I wish I knew how much PPM's of ammonia certain fish put out on a daily basis but there probably isn't a way to scientifically figure that out. Unless you're planning to massively overstock the tank or add huge fish that could potentially produce a lot of waste then I don't see the harm in dosing to 2-3 PPMs of ammonia if it'll stabilize PH. I think even 2 PPMs of ammonia in a standard tank with proper stocking levels would be sufficient to handle the bioload. I haven't tested this theory of course but it makes some sense to me. Most fully stocked aquariums probably don't produce anywhere near 4 PPMs of ammonia so what happens to the BB when the tank is stocked? The bacteria probably adjusts down to the level in the tank and that would happen regardless of the dosing. I dosed my tank to 4 and only added a school of nano fish at the beginning and didn't add more fish until at least a few weeks later; I was sure I'd see some spikes each time I added more fish but I haven't yet.
So Mikey if you wanted to try to dose to 2 PPM of ammonia for a few days at least and see if that stabilizes PH I'd say go for it. If the PH still fluctuates then it'll be a moot point anyway. If it doesn't, I'd conservatively say that dosing to 2 for the duration of the cycle would be sufficient provided you are planning to stock the tank appropriately.
I've also read Jeta's and Jlk's replies and I think Jeta makes some sense. I wish I knew how much PPM's of ammonia certain fish put out on a daily basis but there probably isn't a way to scientifically figure that out. Unless you're planning to massively overstock the tank or add huge fish that could potentially produce a lot of waste then I don't see the harm in dosing to 2-3 PPMs of ammonia if it'll stabilize PH. I think even 2 PPMs of ammonia in a standard tank with proper stocking levels would be sufficient to handle the bioload. I haven't tested this theory of course but it makes some sense to me. Most fully stocked aquariums probably don't produce anywhere near 4 PPMs of ammonia so what happens to the BB when the tank is stocked? The bacteria probably adjusts down to the level in the tank and that would happen regardless of the dosing. I dosed my tank to 4 and only added a school of nano fish at the beginning and didn't add more fish until at least a few weeks later; I was sure I'd see some spikes each time I added more fish but I haven't yet.
So Mikey if you wanted to try to dose to 2 PPM of ammonia for a few days at least and see if that stabilizes PH I'd say go for it. If the PH still fluctuates then it'll be a moot point anyway. If it doesn't, I'd conservatively say that dosing to 2 for the duration of the cycle would be sufficient provided you are planning to stock the tank appropriately.
Last edited:
jetajockey
come get me tang police!
The methodology is totally fine, I'm just giving another way of doing things. But we all have our own ways so I never expect them to be completely the same.
On the flip side, this pH fluctuation could be a precursor to future buffering issues(assuming it isn't dealt with, of course) once the tank is cycled, but I don't have exact hardness numbers to even begin to try to guess.
On the flip side, this pH fluctuation could be a precursor to future buffering issues(assuming it isn't dealt with, of course) once the tank is cycled, but I don't have exact hardness numbers to even begin to try to guess.
Test results as of today . . .
Ph- 6.6
Ammonia- 4.0 ppm
Nitrite- 0 ppm
Nitrate- 40 ppm
My question is . . . Why isn't the ammonia dropping is it because there are no nitrites because the nitrites are being processed by the nitrates ?!?! TAI
Ph- 6.6
Ammonia- 4.0 ppm
Nitrite- 0 ppm
Nitrate- 40 ppm
My question is . . . Why isn't the ammonia dropping is it because there are no nitrites because the nitrites are being processed by the nitrates ?!?! TAI
jlk
Aquarium Advice Addict
Hi Mikey! Well, your getting nitrates but your amm hasnt dropped....but your ph hasnt dropped to 6! Thats a good! If we can get it a bit higher, that would be great. I would add a bit more cr coral & leave the amm be for today and lets see how things look tommorrow.
jlk
Aquarium Advice Addict
Your other option would be to do a 50% pwc, add bit more cr coral & dont dose ammonia- this would bring your amm levels down to 2ppm. And, once again, wait & see how things look tommorrow.
Similar threads
