Ways to improve my ecosystem experiment

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That kind of stock I would do in a 10g tank with filtration.
A tank without filtration and without feedings and possibly without water changes, i think that stock is too much I think. I have never seen cories recommended for 10g tanks on this forum unless they are cute lil pygmies.
 
i am trying to determine the third species, im not really sure what i want but i am looking for diversity, any suggestions?
 
It can be pulled off as long as he doesn't load it with fish, This type of system happens constantly in nature. And the water will not degrade as long as he can find the proper plant/invert balance to cycle the waste. most fish are omnivores. Most fish can live on duckweed alone. couple that with copapods nematodes etc. It is very Possible for fish to live a very healthy life in such a setup.
Where does this happen in nature exactly?

And what fish exactly can live on duckweed alone (and not have malnutrition issues)?

Sorry, but giving any fish a handful of duckweed and some random bits and bobs is far from a thriving environment.

One thing that happens in nature that is not happening in a small closed ecosystem here is rainfall. And many fish species can thrive in small puddles and ditches because of rainfall and also the vast amount of different insects that are found in this environment. Remember, this is supposed to be a 'self sustaining' ecosystem, that means no fiddling.

Unless you are willing to supplement the fish with a more nutritious diet and consider doing water changes to replenish minerals from time to time, I would consider the venture immoral and unethical by a fishkeeping standard.
 
how would i add copapods and nematodes to my tank?

Get a bucket full of soupy pond water and add it would be the easiest way.

The cory thing isn't a good idea either, IMO. What are they going to eat? They do surface for air from time to time but as far as I know it is not to breathe (no labyrinth organ).

to simulate rainfall i replace evaporated water

That would work, but it does nothing to reduce accumulated nutrients. Granted, the plants will utilize some, but not all.

Can fish live in this? Probably, some people don't do water changes on their tanks at all and just top them off when needed. Is this a good environment for fish? Most people would say no. So just because they can, does it mean they should?
 
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Jeta makes very fair points. I too do not see how the tank can be stable and "sustainable" with so many planned inhabitants.

It seems your options would be more diverse if you decided to feed and do water changes. You can still do a very "natural" looking aquarium with very low maintenance and no electricity. The Walstad method may be of interest to you, by the way.
 
O, I was just going by la, I am def doing 3 minnows I want 2-3 bottom feeders and 2-3 more free swimming fish, ideas
 
Just to make sure I read this right, you aren't going to feed the fish anything? You just want to have a self-sustaining system for hopefully a year and you are trying to find fish that will live off of duckweed and other plants and maybe copepods for a year?
 
Jeta and bruins already gave you fish that will live at 68 degrees and fit in your tank, as well as their insight into your set up. They are very experienced fishkeepers and their advice should be well-noted.

It seems you want forum members to tell you what you want to hear. I feel as though anything said regarding the cons of your set up will be ignored.
 
A self sustaining system would be very possible, but not in the scale that you're picturing. The primary source for any ecosystem is the sun. You must have a system that makes good use of the sun. This must includes both multicellular autotrophs (plants) and unicellular autotrophs. Then you have the things that eat them ("herbivores", but not quite an appropriate term for things that eat algae). This appears to be where your misconception comes from, as this is usually daphnia, midge, and other such little critters, and not fish. To may knowledge (and this very may well be wrong), there are no fish common in the aquarium trade that can survive on algae/plants alone, as even traditional algae eaters like plecos and otos spend a decent amount of their time rooting around for these in their natural habitats (as I said, correct me if I'm wrong). Next comes your omnivores and carnivores, then secondary predators, and then tertiary predators, etc. Many of these dietary needs are non-negotiable. Just like how humans couldn't live at sea for long periods of time living on salted meats and thereby forsaking their need for essential vitamins from plants, fish can't live on duckweed alone. Scurvy was a great killer of men for many years before solutions were found.

A common concept in ecology is that there is a roughly 10% transfer of energy between rungs in the food chain. That means that if you consider the entirety of energy coming into your system from the sun, 1% will make it to your fish. That's simply not very much at all.

Another thing that you haven't addressed (or that I missed) is conservation of matter. Most fish don't eat plants. How do you replace the nitrogen that gets locked up in plants? What about other minerals and nutrients, like phosphates? You will eventually have to compensate for this.



Here's how I would approach a problem like this: First, find a 10g thats longer than normal ones to increase it's side area. Next, fill it full of heavily fertilized water (like 60-100 ppm nitrate, etc) and stick it in a south facing window. Wait for the green water to come (and hope that it does, algae serves no master). When you're nice and greened, get your hands on a daphnia culture and seed the water with it. The daphnia will eat the GW and begin to multiply. Let the population come up, and then introduce a SINGLE fish, like a white cloud or something. He'll have a ton of food for a while, and hopefully the tank will balance itself out between the GW, daphnia, and fish. Maybe you can add more, maybe not, you can't predict that. Notice that no plants were added into this system. As nothing eats the plants, they are a dead end to the food chain, and we're trying to shunt all the energy we can to the fish. Also, omnivorous fish like platies might be okay here rather than a few WCMM, as they will be able to eat other algae sources to supplement the daphnia predation.
 
Another important thing to remember is that people will tell you that something is not possible because they haven't seen it. All it takes is a simple google search and some of the opposing info that you hear will be proven wrong.everything I have spoken to you is based on my current setup.

I know for a fact that fish will live on duckweed alone, I have personally participated in projects, where tilapia were grown from fry to dinner plate size adults on nothing but duckweed and other vegetable clippings that were grown by us. Now thats not to say that they didn't feed on any insects/organisms that found their way into the water. But the point is that participants were not allowed to add anything that wasn't grown by us.
In Nature there are several instances where the ebb and flow of lakes and rivers will leave groups of fish stranded in small puddles etc. and those fish would thrive until the puddle dried up. There are many cases of caves and archaelogical finds where fish survived for years in darkness and in sources of water that were not replinished directly by rainwater. Many of these examples happen in places where there are droughts, and/or rainy seasons where it might rain for maybe 2 weeks out of the year.(again) simple google search. the fact that you are topping off your tank mimics the rain. The equivilant of a pwc in nature is a flood. And most of us already know that most places do not flood. and that when they do, it often kills a lot of the fish. I do agree with the light aspect. You will need to place your tank in front of a window. Which is where I have my setup. everything eats everything. I have baby ramshorns that float around and are gobbled up by minnows,.ever saw a shrimp hold a baby MTS like an Ice Cream Cone? funny sight. My tank has never been outside. yet on the day before christmas I still have water insects hatching out of my tank and flying around my house if not "gobbled" by tank inhabitants. I will close by saying I've witnessed instances of fish (shiners) surviving in hollow tree trunks for a whole summer/fall and then they froze when it got too cold.
 
and minnows are best over any other species of fish. you want egg scatterers not live bearers. eggs are a source of food. White Clouds will scatter eggs nonstop, so long as they are happy. It happens for me.
 
You should add water changes into the mix to simulate drainage when taking water out. And adding more water is for the rain, like you said. I really think you should actually feed them, and not just leave them with plants.
 
Sounds like starting w a healthy stock if shrimp b4 fish may give food source that and pond snails that breed crazy...
 
joejeff said:
Sounds like starting w a healthy stock if shrimp b4 fish may give food source that and pond snails that breed crazy...

But what food sources will be available to the shrimp and snails? When considering a set up like this (without feeding), we must make the food chain perfect, or else issues will arise. If the pond snails have no food they won't breed, and the ghost shrimp might die.
 
i think the order of the stocking should be this
first plants
second snails and shrimp
third fish
 
i think the order of the stocking should be this
first plants
second snails and shrimp
third fish

That is a good plan, but what about their food sources? They can't all live off algae and duckweed.
 
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