Ways to improve my ecosystem experiment

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To be honest I don't know the answers to all of the questions, advice is of course welcome but it is an exparament.
 
Experiment or not, you should still make sure they get fed. Maybe monitor them and if they don't eat anything, feed them.
 
I would suggest looking a native minnows and pond snails from the midwestern United States.
 
All the references to nature don't really apply in this case. In nature fish aren't living in 10 gallon puddles. Now I'm not saying this isn't possible, but from things that keep being mentioned about nature don't really apply. In nature fish are getting protein from insects that fall in the water, that won't be happening here.

As far as stocking I would keep to 1 species of fish, if you do minnows leave it at 3.

Read Aquachem's post again and research more into what is being said. That information is all accurate, however there are some more details that need to researched more. Google or whatever search engine you use is a good tool, I suggest researching more tanks like this (on the small scale like yours) and then come back and share your ideas.
 
I agree with Fishkeeper26. I have a lot of experience with fish in their native habitats and it really is a non comparison. There is so much fauna/microfauna in a nature setting in a density that could never be replicated in an indoors small tank like that. Even in a ditch, or a puddle, you have things like dragonfly nymphs, mosquito larvae, as well as a myriad of other bugs I cannot identify.

It has nothing to do with 'people haven't seen it so they say it's not possible', it has to do with ethical fishkeeping. This is something that really takes a lot of research in order to do correctly and humanely, otherwise it's just cruel.

Even a basic setup would work fine, lots of shrimp/copepods/snails/whatever for a few fish to feed on along with available flora. But what happens if they successfully breed? What happens when the food sources become sparse? Dwarf shrimp have a clutch of 20-30 eggs once a month in prime conditions, that might be enough to sustain some fish for a while, but how long?

In a forum like this, people care about their fish, and I don't personally want to advocate something that I know has a great potential to be detrimental to their health.



As far as the setup goes, I'd try to have some sort of division in the tank to keep some of the food colonies safe at least to where they can sustain their #'s, and tweak it from there.
 
I agree with fiskeeper26 also, there is no comparison. But the overall goal is to try to duplicate nature. It really sucks that some of posters assume that a bunch of fish are thrown together in a tank and left to fend for themselves. Now why would anyone invest in such a setup just to let it fail? Can't speak for anyone else but in my case I planned far ahead. I started off feeding flakes then pellets, followed by wafers and now nothing. I have switched out fish that initially didn't work. I plan to go with an even smaller fish soon. My overall goal is to nurture my tank (s) until they can thrive on their own. when an intervention is needed, I do so. but I haven't had to feed this tank since may of last year. If I feel it needs it, I will do so in a heartbeat. but haven't had to. same with water changes. I'd hold my tank up against anyone's as a model of health. when something dies, no matter how long I leave it in there, It doesn't decay. It is eventually scavenged to bits. same with leaves. I've taken nothing out of my tank, and haven't put anything in (except topoffs) in quite some time.

Never assume that just because someone is doing something different than you are that they dont care about their fish.
 
aquaponicpaw said:
I agree with fiskeeper26 also, there is no comparison. But the overall goal is to try to duplicate nature. It really sucks that some of posters assume that a bunch of fish are thrown together in a tank and left to fend for themselves. Now why would anyone invest in such a setup just to let it fail? Can't speak for anyone else but in my case I planned far ahead. I started off feeding flakes then pellets, followed by wafers and now nothing. I have switched out fish that initially didn't work. I plan to go with an even smaller fish soon. My overall goal is to nurture my tank (s) until they can thrive on their own. when an intervention is needed, I do so. but I haven't had to feed this tank since may of last year. If I feel it needs it, I will do so in a heartbeat. but haven't had to. same with water changes. I'd hold my tank up against anyone's as a model of health. when something dies, no matter how long I leave it in there, It doesn't decay. It is eventually scavenged to bits. same with leaves. I've taken nothing out of my tank, and haven't put anything in (except topoffs) in quite some time.

Never assume that just because someone is doing something different than you are that they dont care about their fish.
Click to expand...

Well, fishkeepers do try to duplicate nature, in a way. Instead of aquifers and rainfall we have power filters or air bubblers. Instead of copepods, insects, and other creepy crawlies, we have fish food.

I never assumed they didn't care because they are doing something different, just pointing out glaringly obvious potential issues that come with a setup like this. I haven't noticed any consideration of whether the fish are going to thrive in this setup, but rather just if they'll live in it or not.

It sounds like you did things with care, and in a lot more complex way than what has been previously mentioned in the thread.

I'm not a chemist, but I do know that there are problems that come with lack of water changes. The lack of nutrient export can be a problem, as things will build up. There are more things than nitrogenous waste that has to be considered. One shining example of this is the old schoolers that never do water changes, then do one massive one and kill all their fish in the process. Then they preach that large water changes kill fish, when in reality it was their own lack of routine maintenance that did it. You can call it what you want, ph shock, tds shock, or whatever, but water needs to be refreshed periodically to help maintain stability and keep things diluted. (Solution to pollution is dilution, anyone?)

The whole point I was making was yes, you can do this, and it may work out, but consider just how much these fish are actually thriving? I know some subtropical natives that have adapted to live in anoxic conditions, but does that mean that I should subject them to it? It's the same mentality that keeps bettas in bowls, unfortunately.

This concept isn't anything new, walstad has had it popularized for years. I have kept several tubs outside during spring through fall that works on these basic concepts of a 'set it and forget it' type deal. But through that I can tell you that comparatively, the fish that are getting regular water changes and daily feedings always grow much faster and are in general much healthier.


I've seen these setups work great, but careful selection of species adapted/adaptable to this kind of environment is essential, and I've just been attempting to give the potential pitfalls and issues as I've encountered them myself.
 
Very well said. ^^^^^^^^ It seems the greatest misconception when it comes to projects of sustainibility is that from the very beggining the amount of waste generated, is not taken into consideration. Thats why I told him that he could throw around #s all day but nothing is written in stone. A sustainable project evolves, several steps are taken at a much slower rate than a "traditional" setup.

And it's not necessarily a set it up and forget it scenario. Of course the overall goal is to maintain life. It is very inhumane to keep any animal in undesirable conditions. It is also wrong to have plagues/ailments within a system and not correct them. The overall goal is to start a system and assist it until it can take care of itself.

I am most proud of my current setup because I have had very few deaths. I do use electricity also though. I have a powerhead and lights on a 33 long. The tank is thriving! It still has a few kinks I need to workout. And I have major plans to increase stock and do upgrades.

At last count there were 89 living things in there. this has slowly increased. although at not as fast a pace as I would like.the Mts's are dominating the ramshorns and the shrimp are not prolific enough. white clouds jump rope and play tag in the current, and every couple of weeks I dig up the clams, to make sure they are all still alive, and I stir up the gravel to feed them.

All it takes is patience... and research
 
Has the issue of nitrogen fixation come into consideration yet? Where is the nitrogen going to cone from in a closed system? Thats one of the major concerns to me.
 
i need to get at least 2 species of fish for diversity
 
10g are extremely limited stocking wise, even with powered filter, food etc. You can't purposely hamper conditions and then push stocking.
 
aqua_chem said:
Has the issue of nitrogen fixation come into consideration yet? Where is the nitrogen going to cone from in a closed system? Thats one of the major concerns to me.
Click to expand...
Not sure what you mean. too much, not enough? whatever the case Hasn't been an issue. One of my major issues has been low ph. it hangs around 6.6 I would like to get it between 7 and 8 but refuse to add chems.

tank has a calcium defenciency becuase some of the clams have flaking around the hinge of their shells. this occurs in nature as well. I have a cuttlebone on order for it. For the first time in over a year I have been thinking about scrubbing the front glass. Not sure if I will though. As it has colonies of visible microbes on it.
 
aquaponicpaw said:
Not sure what you mean. too much, not enough? whatever the case Hasn't been an issue. One of my major issues has been low ph. it hangs around 6.6 I would like to get it between 7 and 8 but refuse to add chems.

tank has a calcium defenciency becuase some of the clams have flaking around the hinge of their shells. this occurs in nature as well. I have a cuttlebone on order for it. For the first time in over a year I have been thinking about scrubbing the front glass. Not sure if I will though. it has colonies of visible microbes on it.
Click to expand...

In a normal ecosystem, there are microbes and such that fix atmospheric nitrogen (N2) to make ammonia and such, often in symbiosis with plants. This nitrogen goes through the food chain and trickles up to fish. Without it, the nitrogen would eventually go into plants, and if nothing is eating them, stay there. Im wondering if you have an alternate nitrogen source.
 
Zebra Danios and american flagfish

hey guys, how's it going?
For a 10 gal i am looking to stock with 3 zebra danios and 2 america flagfish, does this work?
Thanks happy holidays
 
aqua_chem said:
In a normal ecosystem, there are microbes and such that fix atmospheric nitrogen (N2) to make ammonia and such, often in symbiosis with plants. This nitrogen goes through the food chain and trickles up to fish. Without it, the nitrogen would eventually go into plants, and if nothing is eating them, stay there. Im wondering if you have an alternate nitrogen source.
Click to expand...

the tank has only that which occurs naturally. I have a powerhead near the waters surface that aerates the tank very well. the bubbles help . As far as the plants. they are on a healthy cycle when a leaf dies It is consumed by all and another sprouts in its place. I've never had a toxic measurement of anything.
 
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