Wigglers At Last!!!!!

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OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!! so i talked 2 one of the girls on here that also breeds angels and swapped heaters and upped the temp a bit, woke up this morning 2 check the eggs and i have WIGGLERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the mother is a first timer 2, she has layed before, but not with a male... about 3/4 of the clutch died, but they picked all dead ones out and it was a huge spawn so i still have 75-100 babies i think! ill post pics once my phone charges!
 
Pics time!!! This is just some of them.
 

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Ok... my tank is about 80... i tried 2 clean the glass so i could get better pics, but the male kept attacking my hand!!! And i thought he lacked parenting instinct... apparently he just didnt like Castiel... poor girl cant find a mate :( all fry are doing great tho!! Here is a better pic...
 

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Ok... my tank is about 80... i tried 2 clean the glass so i could get better pics, but the male kept attacking my hand!!! And i thought he lacked parenting instinct... apparently he just didnt like Castiel... poor girl cant find a mate :( all fry are doing great tho!! Here is a better pic...

Yep, those definitely look like WIGGLERS :D (y)
 
AKA Angelfish Aids, Angel Virus

Updated 10/20/12

This can be a very virulent and devastating disease.
All exposed angelfish that are not immune will come down with symptoms within 2-4 days of exposure. Sometimes sooner, as “Angelfish Aids” is highly infectious.
I witnessed many angelfish from fish farms in Southeast Asia that came in as carriers of this virulent infection in the 1990s; as a result many large angelfish breeding operations closed and there was a shortage of angelfish in the retail trade. I found some small scale angelfish breeders that were able to avoid exposure to this virus and keep me and others supplied with healthy stock

SYMPTOMS:


Clamped fins, excess slime, listless with nose pointed up slightly, usually with the fish on the bottom of the aquarium (unlike Gill Flukes which would have the fish at the surface).
It has an approximately 3 week infectious period. This disease is quite virulent and if an angelfish survives the virus, it may become a carrier for up to six months.
These symptoms can also be caused by other infectious diseases such as Ichthyophonus fungi infections (which are internal), but show similar external symptoms in later stages of the disease.
However one major difference in external symptoms is that the progression of Angelfish Aids/Virus is much quicker than Ichthyophonus, often going from healthy and vibrant to sickly to death in as little as 5 days.

Do not also confuse Angelfish Aids/Virus with internal worm infections such as Nematodes or Annelids as these parasitic worm infections often have a bulge in the lower abdomen near the vent, or worms protruding from the anus, as well the progression is again generally not nearly as quick as Angelfish Virus/Aids (often internal parasite infections can go on for weeks of slowly more noticeable symptoms).
Parasites such as Gill Flukes cause some similar symptoms, although again the progression of Gill Fluke symptoms is much slower than Angelfish Virus (often gill fluke symptoms slowly appear over a week or more time).

If you suspect that a quarantined fish has this virus, I recommend that you destroy the fish. The risk of spread is too high to keep a potentially infected fish around.

Here is a video of the fish pictured above in a video format; this fish is showing most of the classic symptoms of Angelfish Virus from which I have seen many times (especially during outbreaks during the 1990s). I also sent the video link to friend in the professional maintenance business that confirmed this. The other possible diagnosis is Gill Flukes, however as per the owner of this angelfish, the progression of the disease, nor the fish resting on the tank bottom does not indicate this diagnosis.
 
Video Courtesy DaharkazAngel
MODE OF DISEASE TRANSFER
This is where there is not clear evidence (scientific that is), all I have is my observations as well as speaking with other aquarium maintenance professionals experience and brief non-scientific articles about Angelfish Virus. I will provide a few observations/theories (please note that these are not proven at the time of writing this article):

*Direct transfer in the water column; this seems to be the main mode of transference, which of coarse quarantine or purchasing of fish from a known good source can help prevent. As well I have noted that UV Sterilization has helped check the spread of Angelfish Aids to non-immune/exposed fish (which further supports this theory as a UV cannot prevent the spread via feces or similar)

*Transfer via infected water, decorations, or even plants; this is similar to the above and similar preventative measures as above should be taken to prevent this mode of transfer

*Transfer via direct contact/feces; I personally do not support this mode of transfer as I have not observed it nor has the few tests to check the spread bear this out, however a few knowledgeable persons I know (or read) have postulated this.

*Incubation of the virus; as noted in the symptoms section of this article, it has been espoused that a fish can be a carrier for up to six months.

TREATMENT:

Since immunity is the objective, it is important to keep the angelfish comfortable while giving the immune system time to fight this virus (if it can). Part of the problem is this virus moves so fast, the fish’ immune system cannot respond quick enough, so optimal conditions is a must (and this includes the little known among aquarists parameter of Redox Balance which may be quite important for immunity during times of viral infection)
Secondary bacterial and Fungal/Saprolegnia infections are also often issues during Angelfish Aids infections from my experience.

Steps:

*Removal of any bright lights from the aquarium (a darkened quarantine tank with a seasoned Sponge Filter is strongly recommended).

*A medicated Bath utilizing Methylene Blue is recommended.

*Treatment (again preferable in quarantine for Angelfish Virus), may include a “cocktail” of SeaChem ParaGuard, Nitrofurazone, and Kanamycin

*Treat as the medications suggest until symptoms are gone plus 3 days

*Partial water changes between each treatment along with strict monitoring of water parameters (ammonia, nitrites, even GH & KH) is a must.

*The addition of a UV Sterilizer to the main display tank while the fish are in quarantined is strongly urged to aid in stopping the water borne spread of the virus and improve Redox Balance.
Also once added, maintenance of the UV Sterilizer is a must by changing the UV Bulb once every six months!

SUMMARY:

Although I have given a method of treatment, please do not let me give the reader too much false hope; as even with strictly following this treatment regimen quite strictly, chances of success are less than 50% from my experience (many aquarists choose to put the fish down rather than to treat and this is a valid option in my humble opinion as well). However I have also had success with this treatment regimen (much more so than doing nothing), so if you are willing or able to strictly follow it, you may have success.

Either way, with success, failure, or putting the fish down; prevention of spread to other angelfish (or some other fish as well) should be considered. Multiple water changes, optimum water parameters, UV Sterilization, and holding off from adding other angelfish for 3-6 months should all be considered.
 
I was recently told by my local Mom & Pop shop that since I got my Black Angels from him, his breeder as well as other shops in other cities have been experiencing heavy unexplained Angel losses.
This was my nightmare from the mid 1980s and cost me my hatchery.
In addition to their hypothosis of transmition, we also found high evidence that this virus was airborne as well. We were able to treat and save a few fish with meds from now defunct pharmacy Aquatronics, the end result was sterilization of the fish. My partner had taken 2 pairs of the survivors back to his house and had them breeding again in about 6 months but after an additional 6 months of spawns, there were no successful hatches.
If ever there was a reason to quarantine your fish, ANY FISH, this would be it.
 
ok --- when this happened to you andy were any of the fry born deformed -missing fins or stayed small and swam sideways on the bottom or in circles
 
ok --- when this happened to you andy were any of the fry born deformed -missing fins or stayed small and swam sideways on the bottom or in circles

As I remember it, once the fish came down with the disease, there were no more spawns. Remember, my breeders NEVER raised their own fry so the eggs were removed from the parent's tanks on the day they were laid. Maybe that kept the eggs from being infected? Who knows? I really can't recall what happened to any existing fry that were in the breeding room as the parent's were my major concern. I just remember I lost about 80 pairs of fish which left me heartbroken and basically shut down the hatchery as the revenue produced by the other fish I was breeding at the time could not sustain the warehouse's bills.
The sequence of events happened rather quickly. One of my partners had brought in these Black Veil Angels from his family in Thailand. (He wanted me to breed them for the company) They were at his house in a makeshift fishroom. I told him I would let them into the hatchery after 1 month of isolation as I was hearing rumblings about the Asian Angels being sick. ( This was about 1986.) After only 1 week at his house, he brought the fish to the hatchery and put them into a holding tank in the breeding room. Within 1 week of this, those fish were dead and about 20 other pairs of fish were dead as well. As each pair started breaking down, we experimented with every med we knew or had access to. Eventually, we came across the med that saved the fish's lives but by then, only about 20 pairs remained. Once the decision was made to close the hatchery, one of my other partners brought some of the remaining pairs to his house (He was my Discus breeding partner.) It was he who kept the reports of the fish's health and subsequent spawns and kept me informed.

Truthfully Bob, the symptoms you are discribing sound more of an effect of too much inbreeding than disease. While disease could be the cause, the Angelfish AIDs as I experienced it, didn't give the fish a chance to breed once it was active so for me, there was no definite cause and effect for the fry.

Sorry :sorry:
 
Sounds like a horrible time and a huge hit in the angelfish industry. Is the disease still around as bad as it was or did it kinda wear itself out? I would be devastated if all my angels died
 
Sounds like a horrible time and a huge hit in the angelfish industry. Is the disease still around as bad as it was or did it kinda wear itself out? I would be devastated if all my angels died


That's just it, I don't know. What I heard from my LFS and considering that it is also happening to other stores not getting fish from the same breeder, it almost sounds very familiar to me. :huh:
Since the 1960s, the Tropical Fish Industry has had several attacks of this disease pop up unexplainably and wipe out Angelfish stocks. It's only been the private breeders who are EXTREMELY diligent with their fish that have kept the lines of domesticated Angelfish still in existance. Without them, we'd be back to just wild Silver Angelfish for our aquariums. It's why I am concerned about all the color phases that are out there because they come from multi generational inbreeding which is a known cause for shorter lived, unhealthy (both genetically and physically) fish. From a breeding standpoint, you get less hatch per spawn which means that in order to produce enough fish to make any money at this, you need more fish to breed which can lead to a whole new set of problems. From an ethical standpoint, selling fish that are pea sized or dime sized is not allowing any genetic flaws to show up yet. (Can you tell whether a pea sized fish will grow to normal size? )As a consumer, I would never buy anything less than nickle body or larger unless I am willing to be disappointed with the final outcome. ( I don't like to be disappointed ;))

Maybe I'm spoiled? The fish I grew up with were not that many generations away from their wild heritage. I can still see, in my mind's eye, my friend's green montzuma swordtails in his 20 gal long tank where the male's swords were so big that the fish measured close to 10-12 inches nose to tail. I don't even know if those fish still exist in the wild as many larger fish were taken out for breeding purposes and the genetic lines may have been lost in the wild. I just want to see good fish being available to the market and I don't see that in many stores I have been to. Until that happens, we all need to be aware that at any time, diseases may come into our fish's lives and it's encumbant on us to keep our tanks as healthy as possible and the best way of doing that is by not creating situations that cause stress on the fish (i.e. overcrowding, bad tankmates, bad water quality, improper tank sizes for the fish we keep). It is more important these day than ever before to quarantine any new fish you get because you have no idea what that fish my be carrying in it's system.

That's my take on the situation :confused:
 
Hey guys bit of bad news... I lost my male from my breeding pair last Friday and have been on a bit of a downer since as I no it was my fault (stress) got to him when inwas cleaning there tank :) so to cheer myself up me and the old ball and chain drove to a fish shop in the next shire to us and brought 5 new angels to add into my main tank to try and get a new pair, problem is I'm abit of a sucker when I see a sick angel! The guy said it had dropsy and they were going to kill it! So I took it off there hands for free of course, it's in a nice 100lt tall tank ATM with a sponge filter, what I want to no is what's the best way to go about trying to sort the poor thing out ? It has a very very fat belly and one side of its face has a kinda creamy later over its eye and head, so like I said any help will be a Big help :)
 
Hey guys bit of bad news... I lost my male from my breeding pair last Friday and have been on a bit of a downer since as I no it was my fault (stress) got to him when inwas cleaning there tank :) so to cheer myself up me and the old ball and chain drove to a fish shop in the next shire to us and brought 5 new angels to add into my main tank to try and get a new pair, problem is I'm abit of a sucker when I see a sick angel! The guy said it had dropsy and they were going to kill it! So I took it off there hands for free of course, it's in a nice 100lt tall tank ATM with a sponge filter, what I want to no is what's the best way to go about trying to sort the poor thing out ? It has a very very fat belly and one side of its face has a kinda creamy later over its eye and head, so like I said any help will be a Big help :)

The good news is that Dropsy is curable if you catch it early. The bad news is that 99.9% of dropsy cases are not diagnosed correctly until it is too late. Most fish with dropsy die. Sad but true. If your fish has reached the point that it's scales are "pineconing" (even the slightest bit), It's too late and the best thing you can do is euthanize the fish. The only med combo that I have successfully treated dropsy with is both Furan-2 and Maracyn2 used together. M-2 treats the inside of the fish and F-2 treats both gram + and gram - bacteria. (I use the maracyn 2 for saltwater because it also has a stronger vitamin included to aid the fish to getting back to eating. )
I wish you good luck but be prepared for the worst:(
 
Congrats. Just remember to read through this thread as just about everything you can imagine regarding Angelfish eggs and fry has been discussed here(y)

Thanks Andy, I will definitely read through it. I haven't raised Angelfish eggs since the 90's so I will need to refresh myself on how to do that.
 
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