Yet another Fishless Cycle problem thread

[eco23]

I think it may be time for a hail mary pass. Go pick up some Seachem Stability, TLC Start Smart or something similar. I doubt you can find Bio-Spira, but that'd be the best. The main thing with these cycling products is that I don't understand how any type of nitrifying bacteria can survive in a bottle without oxygen or an ammonia source...but who knows, maybe there's one or two live ones floating around in there. I know you added stress zyme, but I don't believe that's supposed to be a cycling product, just claims to add some beneficial bacteria, but I think it's more geared towards helping with mini cycles and reducing ammonia.

I'd normally not recommend wasting $ on these things...but desperate times call for desperate measures, lol.

 

[xawen]

I think it may be time for a hail mary pass. Go pick up some Seachem Stability, TLC Start Smart or something similar. I doubt you can find Bio-Spira, but that'd be the best. The main thing with these cycling products is that I don't understand how any type of nitrifying bacteria can survive in a bottle without oxygen or an ammonia source...but who knows, maybe there's one or two live ones floating around in there. I know you added stress zyme, but I don't believe that's supposed to be a cycling product, just claims to add some beneficial bacteria, but I think it's more geared towards helping with mini cycles and reducing ammonia.

I'd normally not recommend wasting $ on these things...but desperate times call for desperate measures, lol.

I actually did pick up the small bottle of Cycle today. I hadn't decided if I was going to use it yet.

I was thinking if I do and if I'm still stuck and I end up back to the close LFS I can at least tell the guy I tried it. Maybe avoid another lecture and get something useful out of him... I refused to buy it there though, I'm just stubborn like that

I do already I see a problem with it. The small bottle claims to treat 240 gallons. Reading closer, that's at the maintenance (water change or adding fish) dose of 5 ml/10 gal. The new tank dose of 25 ml/10 gal means the small bottle is just under what I should have in my tank.

Oh well, I'll add the whole thing and monitor for changes. If the bacteria work, they work. If my dosing is too small, it should just take a little longer...

I'll keep you guys posted. At least it's a somewhat telling test of another product, the stress-zyme sure didn't do anything

 

[xawen]

I think it may be time for a hail mary pass. Go pick up some Seachem Stability, TLC Start Smart or something similar. I doubt you can find Bio-Spira, but that'd be the best. The main thing with these cycling products is that I don't understand how any type of nitrifying bacteria can survive in a bottle without oxygen or an ammonia source...but who knows, maybe there's one or two live ones floating around in there. I know you added stress zyme, but I don't believe that's supposed to be a cycling product, just claims to add some beneficial bacteria, but I think it's more geared towards helping with mini cycles and reducing ammonia.

I'd normally not recommend wasting $ on these things...but desperate times call for desperate measures, lol.

Oh I forgot to tell you. Apparently they only sell the original bio spira (the stuff that had to be refrigerated) for salt water tanks now. The Tetra Safe Start product is supposed to be the new bio spira for fresh water. They claim to have found a way to make it stable on the store shelf for up to two years or something like that...

The guy that started this thread is doing a pretty good test of it (there's a lot of other noise in the thread, but he's keeping his results in the first post).

I still really do think it's snake oil, but always interesting to see a good test of it.

 

[eco23]

Oh I forgot to tell you. Apparently they only sell the original bio spira (the stuff that had to be refrigerated) for salt water tanks now. The Tetra Safe Start product is supposed to be the new bio spira for fresh water. They claim to have found a way to make it stable on the store shelf for up to two years or something like that...

The guy that started this thread is doing a pretty good test of it (there's a lot of other noise in the thread, but he's keeping his results in the first post).

I still really do think it's snake oil, but always interesting to see a good test of it.

I had heard a major company had bought it out and changed the name, I didn't know it was Tetra. I honestly don't believe the 2 year shelf life sales pitch. Lord knows how sensitive these little bacterium are...they can only go a few days without ammo before they start dying off and oxygen is vital. I read an article about the bacteria that's in that stuff and how it's different from the beneficial bacteria found in a cycled tank. I can't remember the details now though. At this point I'd dump anything in there that I found just to see if we can get something moving, maybe you can make somewhat of a believer out of me. One thing I have definitely heard is that a tank cycled with these products can cause a much less stable biofilter, so make sure you keep a close eye on ammonia levels and watch out for mini cycles if these products actually help.

It's awesome you have the patience and perseverance to see this through. Your fish will be happy you did it...we've just got to hope you have a bit of sanity left by the time you get them, lol.

 

[BldrArch]

Innnnteresting. Sorry I have nothing to add. Just along for the ride. So, did you get any plants from the LFS?

 

[eco23]

Innnnteresting. Sorry I have nothing to add. Just along for the ride. So, did you get any plants from the LFS?

Hey, you are adding something...you're proof fishless cycling actually works....most of the time, lol. Thanks for adding the guide to your sig btw.

 

[ejaramillo01]

I think it may be time for a hail mary pass. Go pick up some Seachem Stability, TLC Start Smart or something similar. I doubt you can find Bio-Spira, but that'd be the best. The main thing with these cycling products is that I don't understand how any type of nitrifying bacteria can survive in a bottle without oxygen or an ammonia source...but who knows, maybe there's one or two live ones floating around in there. I know you added stress zyme, but I don't believe that's supposed to be a cycling product, just claims to add some beneficial bacteria, but I think it's more geared towards helping with mini cycles and reducing ammonia.

I'd normally not recommend wasting $ on these things...but desperate times call for desperate measures, lol.

Agree, these products could help, maybe!!

Also, being a biochemical engineer, I suggest to never underestimate the power of modified microorganism, while I know and understand the meaning of an aerobic bacteria, also I have seen impressive research done in genetically modified organisms, who are able to adapt or survive extreme conditions.
I'm not saying that this is the case of the products on the market, I'm just saying could be more complicated than just saying a bunch of bacterias in the bottle that won't be able to survive. Let's give at least a chance to these companies that maybe invest a lot in research and development!

My two cents

 

[BldrArch]

Hey, you are adding something...you're proof fishless cycling actually works....most of the time, lol. Thanks for adding the guide to your sig btw.

You're Welcome!!!

I don't know if it makes a lick of difference, but does having plants from a LFS give you any "seeding" material? Not sure if bacteria cling to plant surfaces. I know it would be nothing like filter media or other. I had half a dozen live plants when I started my cycle. I have NO idea if that helped. I even have the stupid charcoal filter in the filter that came with the tank as I didn't know any better *gasp*. And I hear that's a huge no, no in fishless cycling. Again, didn't know better and now I'm too scared to take the charcoal filter out! LOL!

 

[eco23]

Agree, these products could help, maybe!!

Also, being a biochemical engineer, I suggest to never underestimate the power of modified microorganism, while I know and understand the meaning of an aerobic bacteria, also I have seen impressive research done in genetically modified organisms, who are able to adapt or survive extreme conditions.
I'm not saying that this is the case of the products on the market, I'm just saying could be more complicated than just saying a bunch of bacterias in the bottle that won't be able to survive. Let's give at least a chance to these companies that maybe invest a lot in research and development!

My two cents

Interesting info and something to consider. I just need one of these major corporations to actually show me that the welfare of fish is somewhere on their priority list and I'll be happy to support and recommend a product that works.

A while ago I bought a Tetra brand product, and somehow I ended up on their "Tetra Care" email list where they send you weekly reminders and a guide in setting up your tank. Basically it was just the traditional cycling method of adding a few "scout fish" (as they called them) and making sure you didn't do any pwc's. They really stressed the fact not to change water because they wanted the ammo and no2 to climb as high as possible. Then the final email they sent told you once the tank was cycled that if any of the fish survived the process that it was okay to basically dispose of them. It was one of the most shocking and horrible things I've ever read in this hobby, and I decided I would never use a Tetra product under any circumstances.

 

[eco23]

You're Welcome!!!

I don't know if it makes a lick of difference, but does having plants from a LFS give you any "seeding" material? Not sure if bacteria cling to plant surfaces. I know it would be nothing like filter media or other. I had half a dozen live plants when I started my cycle. I have NO idea if that helped. I even have the stupid charcoal filter in the filter that came with the tank as I didn't know any better *gasp*. And I hear that's a huge no, no in fishless cycling. Again, didn't know better and now I'm too scared to take the charcoal filter out! LOL!

Take a pair of scissors and cut a slit in the cartridge. Just shake out the carbon into the trash and throw the media back into the filter. Plants will have a very small impact on your cycle unless it's really heavily planted. The water parameters during the cycle are actually beneficial to the plants.

 

[eco23]

This has nothing to do with fish...but turn on the TV...the US killed Bin Laden!

 

[mommytron]

A while ago I bought a Tetra brand product, and somehow I ended up on their "Tetra Care" email list where they send you weekly reminders and a guide in setting up your tank. Basically it was just the traditional cycling method of adding a few "scout fish" (as they called them) and making sure you didn't do any pwc's. They really stressed the fact not to change water because they wanted the ammo and no2 to climb as high as possible. Then the final email they sent told you once the tank was cycled that if any of the fish survived the process that it was okay to basically dispose of them. It was one of the most shocking and horrible things I've ever read in this hobby, and I decided I would never use a Tetra product under any circumstances.

disgusting. it really bothers me that people who think this way about fish still insist on keeping them.

 

[BldrArch]

This has nothing to do with fish...but turn on the TV...the US killed Bin Laden!

Crazy! I thought he was already dead. Oh well. Did I say crazy!?

Ok. Thread hijack over. (really, no pun intended).

 

[ejaramillo01]

Interesting info and something to consider. I just need one of these major corporations to actually show me that the welfare of fish is somewhere on their priority list and I'll be happy to support and recommend a product that works.

A while ago I bought a Tetra brand product, and somehow I ended up on their "Tetra Care" email list where they send you weekly reminders and a guide in setting up your tank. Basically it was just the traditional cycling method of adding a few "scout fish" (as they called them) and making sure you didn't do any pwc's. They really stressed the fact not to change water because they wanted the ammo and no2 to climb as high as possible. Then the final email they sent told you once the tank was cycled that if any of the fish survived the process that it was okay to basically dispose of them. It was one of the most shocking and horrible things I've ever read in this hobby, and I decided I would never use a Tetra product under any circumstances.

I agree in that with you, and also understand the lack of training, concern, or vision from some companies. Nevertheless we all use some of their products to maintain our tanks, either food, or hardware, or chemicals, etc. Also I think that not all companies are the same, some are better than others, I was just trying to make the point of the today's science and technology in product development.

But in the main points we agreed. I hope the cycle speed up for the OP.

 

[xawen]

Well morality of big companies aside, I have some surprising results to share.

I tested twice today (morning and evening) because I didn't really believe my morning results.

Morning (day 28 for those keeping score):
pH 7.9
Am <4 ppm
Nitrites .25ppm
Temp 84.5

Evening:
pH 7.9
Am <4 ppm (would be a 3 if it was on the scale)
Nitrites .5ppm
Nitrates 0 (possible trace, very slight orange tint)
Temp 84.5

I'm floored to be honest. I'm headed to he store right now to pick up more Cycle so that I have enough to do the dosage in the instructions.

So I guess the next question will be if progress continues after I stop feeding bacteria into the tank.

 

[BldrArch]

Well morality of big companies aside, I have some surprising results to share.

I tested twice today (morning and evening) because I didn't really believe my morning results.

Morning (day 28 for those keeping score):
pH 7.9
Am <4 ppm
Nitrites .25ppm
Temp 84.5

Evening:
pH 7.9
Am <4 ppm (would be a 3 if it was on the scale)
Nitrites .5ppm
Nitrates 0 (possible trace, very slight orange tint)
Temp 84.5

I'm floored to be honest. I'm headed to he store right now to pick up more Cycle so that I have enough to do the dosage in the instructions.

So I guess the next question will be if progress continues after I stop feeding bacteria into the tank.

Keep us posted so I can satisfy my curiosity.

 

[xawen]

Keep us posted so I can satisfy my curiosity.

No problem

Day 29 (Day 3 after adding Cycle dose 1)

I added 55ml of Cycle yesterday and today as the instructions say for days 2 and 3. That's the end of the "New Tank" dose instructions. Other doses on the bottle are for maintenance.

Today's readings:
Ammo 2 ppm
Nitrite 2 ppm
Nitrate 5 ppm
pH 7.9
Temp 85

I added today's dose of Cycle just after testing. I do kind of wonder if there's any nitrites in the Cycle bottle...the levels look a little disproportionate to the amount of ammo that's been removed. If so tomorrow's test results will be higher, so it'll be Friday's results that will show if things are moving on their own.

For now, I'm crazy surprised with the results. I'm really hoping they keep up now that I'm done adding the bacteria to the tank.

 

[eco23]

I'm glad that at least something is moving some numbers. Just remember, I have heard over and over that a tank cycled with an "instant cycling" product causes a much less stable biofilter. So, even if you successfully finish your cycle soon keep an eagle eye out for mini cycles anytime you make changes to the tank or add fish.

 

[xawen]

I'm glad that at least something is moving some numbers. Just remember, I have heard over and over that a tank cycled with an "instant cycling" product causes a much less stable biofilter. So, even if you successfully finish your cycle soon keep an eagle eye out for mini cycles anytime you make changes to the tank or add fish.

Heh, me too. Thank you for all your advice.

I've seen a few people write that, but haven't seen much info about it. Do you know if it's a matter of the bio filter collapsing or just not being able to grow fast enough for new fish load? I've also seen people say that Cycle actually has the wrong kind of bacteria and it has trouble reproducing.

I guess it'll be interesting to see if the existing bio filter is able to grow on it's own now that I'm done dosing...

 

[eco23]

Heh, me too. Thank you for all your advice.

I've seen a few people write that, but haven't seen much info about it. Do you know if it's a matter of the bio filter collapsing or just not being able to grow fast enough for new fish load? I've also seen people say that Cycle actually has the wrong kind of bacteria and it has trouble reproducing.

I guess it'll be interesting to see if the existing bio filter is able to grow on it's own now that I'm done dosing...

I've honestly never done the research because I've always written off those products as a $ making gimmick or an inferior way to cycle a tank. I did read a great article a while back that explained the difference in the bacterium, but I can't remember a word of it now. I'll see if I can find it, it's in one of my subscribed threads.

The safest thing to do would be once the cycle is done, keep being patient and make sure it can drop 4ppm ammo down to 0 with 0 no2 over a consistent basis before you actually add fish. Maybe test to make sure it's dropping it in 24 hours 4-5 times before stocking.