Overstocked? Who says?

[Convict2161]

I'm glad I started this thread I like to hear all the opinions and advice from others. That's what makes being a part of this forum such a privilege. We can have a discussion in a manner I which we all build and learn from.

Most of know my mistake as a newbie. The dreaded "assorted African tank"

And I knew nothing about cycling a tank but got through it thanks to the members here. Anyway back on track.

My tank is overstocked and I take very very good care of it BUT I understand the opinions of others and I gotta say it does make a lot of sense. I learned from my mistakes. I know some will need to be re homed and I probably will need to open up my tank a little for more swimming space but I don't dread that time because when it comes I'm gonna switch to sand.

 

[NYgiantsRP]

Stress isn't a human emotion. But there is stress caused by overcrowding. It lowers the body's immune system.

From Wikipedia: "Homeostasis is a concept central to the idea of stress. In biology, most biochemical processes strive to maintain equilibrium, a steady state that exists more as an ideal and less as an achievable condition. Environmental factors, internal or external stimuli, continually disrupt homeostasis; an organism’s present condition is a state in constant flux wavering about a homeostatic point that is that organism’s optimal condition for living. Factors causing an organism’s condition to waver away from homeostasis can be interpreted as stress. A life-threating situation such as a physical insult or prolonged starvation can greatly disrupt homeostasis. On the other hand, an organism’s effortful attempt at restoring conditions back to or near homeostasis, often times consuming energy and natural resources, can also be interpreted as stress. In such instances, an organism’s fight-or-flight response recruits the body’s energy stores and focuses attention to overcome the challenge at hand. The ambiguity in defining this phenomenon was first recognized by Hans Selye in 1926 who loosely described stress as something that “…in addition to being itself, was also the cause of itself, and the result of itself."[3] First to use the term in a biological context, Selye continued to define stress as “the non-specific response of the body to any demand placed upon it.” Present-day neuroscientists including Bruce McEwen and Jaap Koolhaas believe that stress, based on years of empirical research, “should be restricted to conditions where an environmental demand exceeds the natural regulatory capacity of an organism.”[4] Despite the numerous definitions given to stress, homeostasis appears to lie at its core."

Based on this, if you can provide a state of homeostasis, you aren't overstocked.

Ok so stress isnt an emotion like sad or happy but when you say a fish is stressed you think of when you get stressed over something. It is NOTHING of the same. A fish becoming stressed isnt mental like it is with humans, it is strictly physical. Fish dont have personalities, they live though instincts. Sure they act funny and do silly things that you want to say makes them have there own "personality" but its not, its just genetic diposition.

 

[Fishnova]

I think there are similarities between us stressing, and fish stressing. I mean we as humans lose health due to stress; we are always trying to provide ourselves with homeostasis, aren't we?

Then again, Wikipedia isn't very reliable without two or three other sources of information...

 

[Sharkbait54]

I think fish have emotions.

By observation I really think they do.

Just cause we don't totally understand its very blunt to say they don't have emotions.

 

[Mlani]

I think the debate as to whether or not fish have emotions could have its own thread. I think it goes with not only fish but any creature that hasn't the privilege of speech to say yes that hurts or no it doesn't. As humans we get to play the role of decider as to how other species are treated in this world. Based on our beliefs, experiences, research and own feelings.
As to the original topic overstocked? I think in some cases it may help with certain aggression in some species of fish to a point. I also think that if you cram 40 fish in a 10 gallon something's going to fail in that environment. No matter how many precautions you take eventually something is going to crash. Whether it be the bio load the size, the aggression, bacteria blooms, infections... You get the point. I myself go with the theory of this. I look at how large my fish will be when they are fully mature, how much waste they consume/create, how many they need to live with (schooling or not) and what their disposition is (are they active swimmers, bottom dwellers, hiders etc.) and then judge which size of tank could hold how many. I guess what I'm saying is what mist people who have lost fish before say. Take the time and care, do the research and observe the tank the fish will tell you if it works or not. Of course that may lead us back to the question of feelings.

 

[Convict2161]

I think the debate as to whether or not fish have emotions could have its own thread. I think it goes with not only fish but any creature that hasn't the privilege of speech to say yes that hurts or no it doesn't. As humans we get to play the role of decider as to how other species are treated in this world. Based on our beliefs, experiences, research and own feelings.
As to the original topic overstocked? I think in some cases it may help with certain aggression in some species of fish to a point. I also think that if you cram 40 fish in a 10 gallon something's going to fail in that environment. No matter how many precautions you take eventually something is going to crash. Whether it be the bio load the size, the aggression, bacteria blooms, infections... You get the point. I myself go with the theory of this. I look at how large my fish will be when they are fully mature, how much waste they consume/create, how many they need to live with (schooling or not) and what their disposition is (are they active swimmers, bottom dwellers, hiders etc.) and then judge which size of tank could hold how many. I guess what I'm saying is what mist people who have lost fish before say. Take the time and care, do the research and observe the tank the fish will tell you if it works or not. Of course that may lead us back to the question of feelings.

Well said. And thank you for adding to my thread. This is exactly what I wanted achieve here.

As for me, I honestly believe since the re homing of a few and adding some more fish to my tank it seems much calmer. I'm seeing activity I've never seen before. Fish swimming in pairs even schooling (had a thread on that) some fish are locking lips(also had a thread on that) even seen some fish look like there having a seizure. I've watched them at times for hours and they honestly seem to play. They swim and then come in sideways and hit the leaves of the plants.

All in all my tank is like night and day since the change.

Am I pushing the envelope? Yes. Do I have enough filtration? Yes. Do I maintain my tank? Yes. Does all that make it right? Who knows... I don't have the answer to that question however I do know what works for me and my tank.

 

[cheeky_monkey]

If you really do care about your fish, then you'll do whatever you can to keep them alive and best attempt for happiness for as long as possible. But that's probably a personal preference too, right?

In the case of Convict, isn't that exactly what he's doing? By overstocking he is lowering aggression which is stopping the fights and deaths which overall makes for a happier fish, yes?

 

[Convict2161]

I don't want this thread to be just about me, I would like everyone to add there experiences with this issue or there opinions. But yes in my case I re homed 4 and added more of the same species and now everyone appears to be happy!!

True they can't speak but there eating, don't look stressed or unhealthy by any means. They swim around chase each other and even appear to play together. So yes I feel my tank is a happier tank now. I also strongly believe every situation is different as is every fish. What works for you may not work for me and vise versa.

I always use my friends tank as an example. Some of you are probably tired of hearing it.

He has a 90 gallon. Stock

Sand substrate, 3 air stones 2 AC 110's water changes 2x's a week. 3 pieces of DW. All rock caves and a lot of nooks and crannies. All fake plants with the exception of a few Anubias and moss wrapped around the DW.

Convicts I think about 8-11
Red eye tetras unknown how many
Red blue tetras ........... ....... .......
Plecos 3
JD's. 2
Firemouth's 2
Tiger barbs 12
Peacock eel 1
Apple and mystery snails about 20
Lobsters 2. 1 red 1 blue
And finally 2 gold fish!

Has had this tank a little over a year.

Is it right? By the book? I don't know. Would I do it? Nope, I'd be scared to attempt this. His theory is if he didn't try crazy and far out things the hobby wouldn't grow. I must say his tank is interesting to watch to say the least.

 

[cheeky_monkey]

Sorry Convict I was just using you as an example for your reasons behind overstocking. I'm sure there are others out there I could have used but I couldn't think of any.

 

[Terrance]

In the case of Convict, isn't that exactly what he's doing? By overstocking he is lowering aggression which is stopping the fights and deaths which overall makes for a happier fish, yes?

Lowering aggression by adding more fish = increase in water pollutants.


Health of the fish is at risk due to stress and polluted water. Strong filtration and water changes helps very little with the continuous loop of dissolved organic waste in the water.

 

[cheeky_monkey]

I think every tank needs to be assessed on an individual basis. Taking into account the maintenance of said tank etc.

 

[jetajockey]

I guess it would also depend on how we define a 'happy' fish. Since overstocking to reduce aggression works both in a home tank and a LFS tank, do you (open to anyone) think the fish stacked into a sale tank in a LFS are happy as well?

 

[Terrance]

I guess it would also depend on how we define a 'happy' fish. Since overstocking to reduce aggression works both in a home tank and a LFS tank, do you (open to anyone) think the fish stacked into a sale tank in a LFS are happy as well?

They are as happy as the Christmas ornaments I see on the shelves at walmart. You should've seen how good my Christmas tree looked this year.

 

[Convict2161]

Sorry Convict I was just using you as an example for your reasons behind overstocking. I'm sure there are others out there I could have used but I couldn't think of any.

No need to be sorry...

 

[dudeofrude]

To be honest are we not just applying a happiness rating to a fish? We assume a fish is happy just because it's in clean water, has room to swim and is well fed, but in reality we have no clue what it's feeling, if anything? And let face it, if any of us were really that bothered about the feelings of a fish then surely we wouldn't keep them in tiny glass cages for our own amusement? (because at the end of it that is what we do)

 

[Convict2161]

I guess it would also depend on how we define a 'happy' fish. Since overstocking to reduce aggression works both in a home tank and a LFS tank, do you (open to anyone) think the fish stacked into a sale tank in a LFS are happy as well?

Good point. I do not think those fish are "happy" I guess it's kinda a double standard then. When one complains about the LFS tanks then does the same. Even though I would like to think a tank at home is better maintained then a tank at a LFS that runs on one central filtration system.

 

[jetajockey]

Good point. I do not think those fish are "happy" I guess it's kinda a double standard then. When one complains about the LFS tanks then does the same. Even though I would like to think a tank at home is better maintained then a tank at a LFS that runs on one central filtration system.

That's obviously subjective as well, though, since some LFS are better than others. I will have a central filtration system in place on most of my tanks in my future LFS, but the whole system will stay top notch. And likewise, I'm certain that your maintenance routine is above and beyond that of many others with similar stocking.

I define a fish as 'happy' (I don't believe fish have this type of emotion, or any apart from the primal) when it is healthy.

The health of a fish is a dead giveaway as to whether it is doing well in its setup or not.

 

[Austin.b]

To be honest are we not just applying a happiness rating to a fish? We assume a fish is happy just because it's in clean water, has room to swim and is well fed, but in reality we have no clue what it's feeling, if anything? And let face it, if any of us were really that bothered about the feelings of a fish then surely we wouldn't keep them in tiny glass cages for our own amusement? (because at the end of it that is what we do)

I completely agree with you!

 

[Convict2161]

That's obviously subjective as well, though, since some LFS are better than others. I will have a central filtration system in place on most of my tanks in my future LFS, but the whole system will stay top notch. And likewise, I'm certain that your maintenance routine is above and beyond that of many others with similar stocking.

I define a fish as 'happy' (I don't believe fish have this type of emotion, or any apart from the primal) when it is healthy.

The health of a fish is a dead giveaway as to whether it is doing well in its setup or not.

Again another good point jeta. I think this thread will be very helpful to newer members. If I could do it over I would do a lot of things differently. But for now I'll see what happens. If my buddy will take them maybe I'll re home like 20 bringing the number to a acceptable level. Then again my point acceptable level to who? What book or rule? A standard? What would I be abiding by?

Once again a very healthy thread going on. A lot of you make excellent points on both sides.

 

[Convict2161]

To be honest are we not just applying a happiness rating to a fish? We assume a fish is happy just because it's in clean water, has room to swim and is well fed, but in reality we have no clue what it's feeling, if anything? And let face it, if any of us were really that bothered about the feelings of a fish then surely we wouldn't keep them in tiny glass cages for our own amusement? (because at the end of it that is what we do)

Very well put!!