Overstocked? Who says?

[jetajockey]

Again another good point jeta. I think this thread will be very helpful to newer members. If I could do it over I would do a lot of things differently. But for now I'll see what happens. If my buddy will take them maybe I'll re home like 20 bringing the number to a acceptable level. Then again my point acceptable level to who? What book or rule? A standard? What would I be abiding by?

Once again a very healthy thread going on. A lot of you make excellent points on both sides.

Ultimately, it just has to be acceptable to you, since you are the one who has to maintain it and look at it.


I think one thing that needs mentioned here though is that while this and that may work or whatnot, it doesn't mean that it should also be promoted or used as a general guideline when giving advice. I think that happens a lot (not anyone in particular), where someone says 'well it worked for me, or it worked for my friend, or etc' when they are questioned about their stocking plan. I tend to put those responses in the same bag with those 'oh well my 10 goldfish have been fine in this bowl for a year so all is well' types.

 

[dudeofrude]

I think of it this way, the majority of fish are bred in captivity for the purpose of being used as pets. These fish were born into small tanks wildly overstocked with other fish, then taken to a shop where it's placed into another overstocked small tank, so who's to say they're going to feel better alone or in a pair into a much bigger, emptier tank when they've never known that kind of freedom?

 

[NYgiantsRP]

I think of it this way, the majority of fish are bred in captivity for the purpose of being used as pets. These fish were born into small tanks wildly overstocked with other fish, then taken to a shop where it's placed into another overstocked small tank, so who's to say they're going to feel better alone or in a pair into a much bigger, emptier tank when they've never known that kind of freedom?

Agreed. If all fish were wild caught then I would think of it different. A lot of the fish we buy have been in overcrowded tank for many many many generations. I would say that overcrowded is a better word than overstocked.

 

[LyndaB]

Am I pushing the envelope? Yes. Do I have enough filtration? Yes. Do I maintain my tank? Yes. Does all that make it right? Who knows... I don't have the answer to that question however I do know what works for me and my tank.

So often, we refer to the fish having unique personalities, which is why one person's setup will work and the identical setup, with the exception of the individual personalities, will not.

Your fish might be fine in what some would call an overstocked tank. You obviously devote yourself to the hobby and so your tank works for you. Your tank might not work for someone less devoted.

As for what defines "overstocked", to me personally, if my tank inhabitants co-exist with no issues, I'm probably not overstocked. I think the fish will tell you if there are issues.

 

[VioletEmber]

Ultimately, it just has to be acceptable to you, since you are the one who has to maintain it and look at it.

I think one thing that needs mentioned here though is that while this and that may work or whatnot, it doesn't mean that it should also be promoted or used as a general guideline when giving advice. I think that happens a lot (not anyone in particular), where someone says 'well it worked for me, or it worked for my friend, or etc' when they are questioned about their stocking plan. I tend to put those responses in the same bag with those 'oh well my 10 goldfish have been fine in this bowl for a year so all is well' types.

This is a great thread... I "babysat" my kids preschool class's goldfish over winter break... They sent me home with him in a small goldfish bowl, and I scrounged around for the biggest container I could find -- a 2.5 g "Betta" tank. My husband and I were watching this big goldfish splash around in it-- and he says to me "it's kind if hard to watch, isn't it?"

I dont know where this falls on the "fish have emotions" spectrum but in my gut I knew he didn't seem "happy". I personally do believe fish have emotions-- in the same way human emotions are also physical/neurological phenomena. If you get into the brain chemistry part of it, then all of human emotions are based on "primal instincts" as well.

Next up, do fish have souls?

 

[adadkins1]

This is a great thread... I "babysat" my kids preschool class's goldfish over winter break... They sent me home with him in a small goldfish bowl, and I scrounged around for the biggest container I could find -- a 2.5 g "Betta" tank. My husband and I were watching this big goldfish splash around in it-- and he says to me "it's kind if hard to watch, isn't it?"

I dont know where this falls on the "fish have emotions" spectrum but in my gut I knew he didn't seem "happy". I personally do believe fish have emotions-- in the same way human emotions are also physical/neurological phenomena. If you get into the brain chemistry part of it, then all of human emotions are based on "primal instincts" as well.

Next up, do fish have souls?

I definitely agree that over time I have learned the outward actions, emotions, and signs of happy fish. I had a male Betta in a 2.5g aquarium unheated and unfiltered for 6 years. Now that I look back on it he was miserable, his water temp was probably in the low 70's, his fins were often clammed, and he went through a lot of cycles in that small tank. However I thought this was a wonderful tank and I didn't know how to interpret the actions of a fish.

Fast forward to now and boy what a change has happened. I got another male Betta and he is in a 5.5g planted, heated, and filtered. He is constantly swimming around through the plants and "dancing" when he knows I am in the room. When I was cycling (fish in ) he had no where near this amount of energy and color.

I can also tell water quality and stress/health by my Glowlight Tetras' colors. Their orange stripes are simply splendid in pristine water and a low-stress environment. However when I have a mini-cycle (upgraded tanks) their colors fade and they "just aren't themselves".

So, overstocking is really a personal opinion. However, I try to use my fish and their actions as a gauge of their happiness which directly relates to health; and I believe health is also closely tied to stocking level.

 

[sliderfish]

If it is unhealthy to overstock a cichlid tank, from my experiences I can tell you understocking has yielded more stressed and dead fish. If I let my tank numbers dwindle, my large Maingano feels the need to over take it stressing out all the other members of the tank. He will one by one target the weakest until he has claimed a territory he can keep to himself and will kill off any and all other mainganos I put in with him. By removing all other mainganos and adding more numbers of the other species (yellow labs and kenyis currently) I was able to keep aggression down to normal (and sometimes almost none). When I have low numbers of other cichlids I don't get this result. Now he seems to not care about being boss anymore. The others are healthy and breeding regularly.

 

[Arete]

I think overstocking when it comes to people who have a clue about what they are doing isn't a problem. I think underequipped is a bigger problem in the world when it comes to fish. Goldfishes in bowls, ect..

Things like that, where the deathrate is incredibly high and people just assume that goldfish and other fish "only live for 6 months" or something like that.

If you're tank is clean and the fish are living and its not OBVIOUS they are way too crowded... then I guess more power to you?

I have a Goldfish tank right now and I'm only going to have a few fish inside mine. I don't need alot of fish to be excited about the tank. I currently have 3 in my 55g while I wait for it to cycle(couldnt do fishless, inherited the fish). I am going to add one more fish probably.

My fish swim around and look quite 'happy'. They notice when I walk in front of the aquarium and seem excited and I get excited in turn.

I do think its about quality of life in the overall for both you and your fish.

One thing I know though: People do not take fish seriously. They look down upon them as lower than other animals. People would get up in arms and be VERY upset about seeing dogs/cats living in small cages/conditions that some fish owners place their fishes into everyday and people don't even bat an eyelash.

Thats one thing I have definitely noticed. There is a big overlook when it comes to aquarium-based pets.

 

[Sisserydoo]

One thing I know though: People do not take fish seriously. They look down upon them as lower than other animals. People would get up in arms and be VERY upset about seeing dogs/cats living in small cages/conditions that some fish owners place their fishes into everyday and people don't even bat an eyelash.

That's what frustrates me about the way fiddler crabs and bettas are sold. Stocked on the shelf and left there until they are purchased, or die. Can you even imagine the uproar if cats and dogs were sold that way.

Back to the topic at hand...I too have some overstocked tanks, I'll describe the situation when I'm not on my phone

 

[aquaponicpaw]

Very nice discussion. and very excellent moderating from the Thread Starter.

My belief is that as long as health and water parameters are met It's very possible to keep a very large community in a confined space.

We tend to forget that It is very stressful for any animal living in the wild. Having to forage for food, Always on the lookoout for predators ( most of us are able to eleminate predation within our tanks. Often the fish we keep don't even have to compete for a mate. We provide that for them. how many of our fish have harems that they didn't have to earn?

If/when I use the term "overstocked" It is when someone has stocked their tank to the point of poor water quality. Or fish are being kept in conditions that restrict their movement.

Regarding emotion: Sticky situation! Some fish lay eggs and don't give a "hoot" what happens. Others will go so far as to eat their young. But the greatest emotion I have seen within a tank is watching the fish who protect and provide for their young, How often have we seen the most docile pair of cichlids keep a tank of larger, meaner aggressors in check when raising their young? Any time I see something with the ability to nurture, I inherently believe that it has emotion.

 

[Sisserydoo]

I had one dg, one molly, and 5 zebra fish in my 20 gallon, which was fine, but then my molly had thirteen babies, so I was overstocked. When they got bigger, I put the two males in my daughter's tank, and gave four of the females to a friend at work.

Then my friend decides he wants to get out of the hobby, and says I can have his 27 hex for free! Yay! The only catch is I get back my four mollies, and his 7 five year old black skirt tetras.

So I want to make the hex a brackish tank, I put all the female mollies in it, bought three male guppies, and one more molly, a yellow lyre tail. Well the guppies decide they want to rip the new molly to shreds, so in an emergency measure, I put her in my 20 gallon.

So now my twenty gallon is overstocked, with 7 adult blackskirts, one dg, 5 zebra danios, and one molly, two ghost shrimp and about 10 trumpet snails and some pond snails. The interesting thing is that this has greatly improved the disposition of the dwarf gourami. He is all over the tank now, and much less aggressive than he used to be. I just have to do a lot of cleaning now! Oh well, they seem happy and healthy to me! Numbers are always good so far...I've only had my testing kit since Christmas though!

 

[GodFan]

IMO you can "overstock" (based on the commonly accepted terms) without being overstocked (based on real numbers) If the fish have room to swim, there is no aggression, and the water is healthy then you are not overstocked but based on how many fish you have some would say you are. I think if you have a heavily planted tank it can hold more fish than a tank with fake plants too because the plants purify the water further. I like my tanks to look healthy full but not understocked and not pet store full.

 

[savage]

Great thread! I've been following it, because you read so many different opinions about it. I too prefer the 'better safe than sorry' route, but it's interesting to see so many viewpoints. I guess the real answer is maybe to try it if you want to, but always have a backup plan!

 

[GodFan]

Great thread! I've been following it, because you read so many different opinions about it. I too prefer the 'better safe than sorry' route, but it's interesting to see so many viewpoints. I guess the real answer is maybe to try it if you want to, but always have a backup plan!

I agree to this. Try but be prepared for the worst.

 

[joejeff]

Imo water quality and room to move is what matters. I don't care if u have too many inches by the inch to.gallon rule, if your fish seem healthy and active then you are fine. I believe the two big answers in stocking is first water quality Amd second room to move. My second fish ever purchased was my beloved pleco " the enforcer" who after growing with me though a 10 gallon ( yes it happened) to a 30 gallon and then into the 75 gallon. The 75 gallon was very "understocked" except him. He could not hardly move... Now he patrols a 200 gallon tank of a person I found on cl to rehome him... And yes this aquariumist interviewed the adoptive owners... My point is that overtook is relative. That's why we say "happy". We mean active and healthy. The water was perfect. No aggression. But he was the wrng fish for.the tank.

 

[TheCrazyFishLady]

Well, I think happiness is the proper word to use here. Being "happy" can be defined in multiple different ways for humans. One person's view of happiness is different from each other and no one says that happiness has to do exactly with a human. And for a fish, being healthy and having a sufficient habitat, wouldn't that be considered happy? I know personification can be a deadly road for anyone who is a little too passionate over their animals, but I think to a degree, fish do feel to some sort of happiness. So, let me go ask one of my bettas if he's happy<3

I'm loving this thread, by the way. Great opinions being thrown around.

 

[GodFan]

Yes I agree good thread. I do think fish can be happy and depressed and stressed, etc. I know it sounds wierd but I have seen dogs go through a whole day depressed. Lieing around, moping, and just not happy! Fish probably can to!

 

[adadkins1]

Fish definitely can show many different emotions IMO. This is a great thread!

 

[Convict2161]

I for one I have seen the sadness and happiness of my fish, and some of you have been through it with me!

I had a tank of death! Fish hiding my the heater,top of tank near filter,in there stones, wherever they could hide! Not eating, not swimming just looking at me with there little fish eyes saying come'on man!! Pick up on this problem were having with these other fish. Well with the help of some of the members here we narrowed down the trouble makers and bully's. All 4 were re homed and my tank?!?!

NIGHT AND DAY!!

So happy? If have to say yes!

All my fish came out from hiding. They started eating slowly. Still looking around for the bully's. I watched for days!! It was like they spoke to one and other saying the bully's are gone! It's ok now. They swim and play now! So something happened in that tank BUT let me add time of the re homing of the 4 I added a bunch of blue cobalts, everyone seems "happy" now.



Again this is just my experience but I saw a change I know I did! I know what I saw it was crazy. I made a thread about it.

 

[Hholly]

I had the same experience when I removed the bullies in my tank. Now it's peaceful and they seem happy.