Overstocked? Who says?

[Convict2161]

Not a debate just curious about the term overstocked. I don't mean the obvious like 8 Oscars in a 10 gallon. But seriously what constitutes overstocked?

I have a 75 gallon with about right now 42 african cichlids the tank is running on a fx5 and AC 110. I do water changes 2x's a week, feed everyday. 14 Anubias and 3 mates of java fern.

I also have a Bali shark,red tail, 2 Synodontis, some loaches and some chinese algae eaters. Oh and 1 upside down catfish. I think that's it.

Oh wait NOPE!! 6 giant danios.

 

[mudraker]

Many different definitions.

It is overstocked when nitrates remain high despite frequent PWC or when small fish (say, the Bala shark) are small but become much, much larger and then the fish are no longer peaceful, such as when the chinese algae eaters start wanting to eat meat instead of algae.

Just my opinion...

 

[Convict2161]

Many different definitions.

It is overstocked when nitrates remain high despite frequent PWC or when small fish (say, the Bala shark) are small but become much, much larger and then the fish are no longer peaceful, such as when the chinese algae eaters start wanting to eat meat instead of algae.

Just my opinion...

I understand. I was just looking for a more defined answer or even opinion for myself. I know in overstocked and already have a plan in effect with my LFS guy. He will take whatever, whenever. Not saying that it's right because I have a plan ahead of time, but I do take responsibility for my fish and my tank being overstocked. Hence the reason for the filtration and water changes. I can go 2 weeks with no testing, test it and no ammonia. I had a thread about that last week. I was wondering where my ammonia was lol.

 

[mudraker]

What is your nitrate readings?

Too high and your tank will be ripe for all kinds of bacterial disease.

Nitrates can be hard to control, even with frequent PWC when you have that kind of bioload.

 

[Convict2161]

What is your nitrate readings?

Too high and your tank will be ripe for all kinds of bacterial disease.

Nitrates can be hard to control, even with frequent PWC when you have that kind of bioload.

My nitrates are 5.0ppm-10ppm. Nitrites always 0ppm and pH 8.2.

I'm not saying I'm right by any means just wanted a friendly conversation. I always see am I overstocked threads so I said to myself what constitutes overstocked if the tank is being well maintained. I'm on top of my tank all the time. Again I know I'm pushing it but.... I guess for now it's working.

 

[Terrance]

IMO the practice of overstocking cichlid tanks is terrible. I can't see any of their natural behaviors. These types of tank get lots of praises from people outside of this hobby, but its not very interesting since the keeper is the one who gets to look at their fish's boring lifestyle everyday.

Everyone is in this hobby for different reasons.

 

[Convict2161]

IMO the practice of overstocking cichlid tanks is terrible. I can't see any of their natural behaviors. These types of tank get lots of praises from people outside of this hobby, but its not very interesting since the keeper is the one who gets to look at their fish's boring lifestyle everyday.

Everyone is in this hobby for different reasons.

True but for now I gotta say I love it and they all have there ways about them... thats just me though... Just like to hear others opinions.

 

[Terrance]

IMO the practice of overstocking cichlid tanks is terrible. I can't see any of their natural behaviors. These types of tank get lots of praises from people outside of this hobby, but its not very interesting since the keeper is the one who gets to look at their fish's boring lifestyle everyday.

Everyone is in this hobby for different reasons.

^thats only one reason.

In addition to overriding their internal behaviors, overstocking obviously stunts the health of a fish and also causes stress. A stressed fish are more likely to become diseased.

oh right these types of tanks are also polluted with other dissolved waste. I think I was saying this stuff on another thread.

 

[TheCrazyFishLady]

Definitely different opinions here. Glad it's staying civil at this point <3

I'm more relaxed when it comes to stocking under a responsible and older owner (in fish years, not human). If you understand what your getting into, done all your research, and know how to take care of it, I say go for it. Honestly, I think my 55g is understocked, where many will say it's good where it's at.

If it's a newbie, I would say to understock. Less fish means less lives to worry about if all goes wrong and fewer animals to freak out over. This is coming more from personal experience, I had horribly overstocked tanks and would have mental break downs when something would go wrong. Finally, I got rid of them, calmed down, did research, and stayed small. Helped me breath this hobby out and get to the point I'm at now. Still a little over-reactive, but better than when I began. Not saying experienced people don't mess up. But, if you've got a general idea, you most likely won't need to sit on the internet for a few hours to figure out what to do.

 

[iheartmyed9]

I'm still fairly new to the hobby so this is pure opinion based on the behavior of my African cichlids. I wouldn't want to overstock my tank cause I feel like it'd cause more stress. To me it seems like prison for fish. There's a lot of dangerous fish lurking all around so its got to stress them thinking things might pop off at any minute. This is just pure opinion though. I'm no scientist.

 

[NYgiantsRP]

Its all personal opinion. If you want to do more work and change water and clean filters more often then you can keep more fish. I dont think anyone can say "the fish will be happier" because there is less or more fish. People often put human emotions to fish and you cant. Fish dont get happy or sad or scared or stressed. They live on instinct. Lets say, hypotheticlly, if you have 50 neons in a 10 gallon tank, change the water often, keep it clean and the parameters are perfect. Why is that "overstocked"? They swim, eat, LIVE. Whats the difference if there is 1 or 100?

I think there is a limit on everything, but if the fish and water is healthy then whats the problem? I believe that the whole "natural behavior" thing is just silly. There are mostly tank bred fish in a tiny little tank. If you want to see them in there naturaul habitat, then go swimming in some rivers. haha.

 

[Hholly]

Stress isn't a human emotion. But there is stress caused by overcrowding. It lowers the body's immune system.

From Wikipedia: "Homeostasis is a concept central to the idea of stress. In biology, most biochemical processes strive to maintain equilibrium, a steady state that exists more as an ideal and less as an achievable condition. Environmental factors, internal or external stimuli, continually disrupt homeostasis; an organism’s present condition is a state in constant flux wavering about a homeostatic point that is that organism’s optimal condition for living. Factors causing an organism’s condition to waver away from homeostasis can be interpreted as stress. A life-threating situation such as a physical insult or prolonged starvation can greatly disrupt homeostasis. On the other hand, an organism’s effortful attempt at restoring conditions back to or near homeostasis, often times consuming energy and natural resources, can also be interpreted as stress. In such instances, an organism’s fight-or-flight response recruits the body’s energy stores and focuses attention to overcome the challenge at hand. The ambiguity in defining this phenomenon was first recognized by Hans Selye in 1926 who loosely described stress as something that “…in addition to being itself, was also the cause of itself, and the result of itself."[3] First to use the term in a biological context, Selye continued to define stress as “the non-specific response of the body to any demand placed upon it.” Present-day neuroscientists including Bruce McEwen and Jaap Koolhaas believe that stress, based on years of empirical research, “should be restricted to conditions where an environmental demand exceeds the natural regulatory capacity of an organism.”[4] Despite the numerous definitions given to stress, homeostasis appears to lie at its core."

Based on this, if you can provide a state of homeostasis, you aren't overstocked.

 

[Phranque]

OK... say I'm a zookeeper, and I want to set up a new African monkey cage. I gather up about 60 monkeys of 25 different species and jam them all into one 20' square cage. They are well fed and the pen is kept clean, so who cares about their natural behavior, stress, and well being.... they look good.

 

[Convict2161]

I like the discussion and I'm glad I started this thread. I must say something though... About the monkey cage thing. It wouldn't be 25 different species. Just to clarify I'm talking about fish.... Fish they in the wild are kept together closely together like from the same lake (example)

I have to agree with NY. By what rules or book does it explain overcrowding. Again I want this topic to remain civil and professional. Were all entitle to our opinions.

 

[Scouser]

Overstocking is a concept, but in reality an "overstocked" tank can be as healthy as an "under stocked" one.

So long as you don't have a build up of harmful toxins and the fish aren't visibly ill with enough room to swim happily then the tank is fine.

It's the same as the "one inch per gallon" rule, it's passed down from more "experienced" hobbyists, but along the way it always gets twisted and changed.

If all that ^^ made no sense then here's the short version: if the fish are; healthy, happy and alive then all is well.

 

[Terrance]

There is a buildup of harmful dissolved organic pollutants in overcrowded tanks. Some of you judge everything by appearance and test kits. Test kits do not detect dissolved organic pollutants. Some of these pollutants may stay in the tank for up to a year.

Through the decades in this hobby, we learn more about different types of fish. That is why the rule always changes.

Certain fish do have emotions. Through close observations, I've noticed my fish change colors when stressed or scared. Some fishes are a lot smarter than others and many do not show being happy or sad or stressed. These characteristics are unmeasureable since we do not put a understocked and overstocked tank side-by-side to compare.

If you really do care about your fish, then you'll do whatever you can to keep them alive and best attempt for happiness for as long as possible. But that's probably a personal preference too, right?

 

[jetajockey]

I like the discussion and I'm glad I started this thread. I must say something though... About the monkey cage thing. It wouldn't be 25 different species. Just to clarify I'm talking about fish.... Fish they in the wild are kept together closely together like from the same lake (example)

I have to agree with NY. By what rules or book does it explain overcrowding. Again I want this topic to remain civil and professional. Were all entitle to our opinions.

Are you sure that they are together like that in the wild? I've seen large groups in the wild in videos, but I don't think I've seen 60+ fish of multiple species in a 4ft x 1 1/2 ft space as a permanent living situation.

You are right, to some extent it is personal taste. I prefer understocked tanks, and it's something I took a liking to over time. At first I was like everyone else new to the hobby, it seems like we all as beginner want to cram as much as we possibly can into the tank.

Now when I see a fully or overstocked tank it often just looks overly busy to me.

When you have certain fish with more complex behaviors than your basic schoolers (danios, tetras etc), it's absolutely true that they have a very different natural behavior when they are stocked sparsely versus overstocked together to help 'reduce' this behavior.

The other thing is fish maturity, young fish typically have not grown into their attitude yet, and it can often take several months for them to get to that age, so it can pose future problems in an overstocking scenario.

Heck, that's what LFS count on when they stock these fish for sale, that's another reason why you often see 20 cichlids in a tank together acting like best friends, they are young and they are too close to one another to have a space of their own.

 

[Convict2161]

You made some good points jeta,

 

[Fishnova]

Yeah, I agree with the attitudes progress as the fish mature.
I have a betta who decided to make me buy a tank to himself after months of peaceful friendship with the other tetras I have.

 

[Lovin Fish]

Great discussion!
My Tetra tank is technically over stocked with 4 tetra schools, and 2 catfish schools, but I know this and therefore do water changes every two days. My water tests are perfect every week. And, each test has the same results.

My taste is like Jeta's. I like a smooth flowing order in my tank (which I have even though it's concidered overstocked) rather than a fast moving jumbled mess. That's what makes this hobby so incredible! We all have our likes and dislikes which creates for a massive variety of fun tanks to look at!

I say as long as you take good care of your fish and don't put them in tanks where they hide all day because they are terrified of their tank mates, then don't worry about being "overstocked". What you concider under stocked most likely will be thought to be overstocked by someone else.

It's all in the eye of the beholder right!