Question about quarantining new arrivals

[NigelK8485]

I've been researching it and get a lot of varied answers on how people quarantine their new arrivals. Some say they just watch them a few days to see if anything is unusual, I've seen some people say after acclimating they put the fish in a quarantine tank and do a mixture of an epsom salt bath as well as using methyl blue to rid the fish of any external parasites, and others say they use a course of action similar to API general cure to be preemptive against diseases. What is your course of action when receiving new fish? After being delivered rainbows with internal parasites and having more than half die I've gotten nervous about adding new fish and like the last option, but I also don't want to be overly harsh on the new fish.


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[Mebbid]

I keep them in quarantine and do a copper treatment for the recommended time. Itll take care of parasites which are my primary worry

 

[treemanone2003]

I always QT new arrivals for at least 4-6 weeks. I have a great relationship with my supplier and he does a thorough job when he imports them but always recommends the extra just to be safe. My QT consists of a seeded sponge filter and nothin but good clean water. Only if I see an issue will I address it.


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[Andy Sager]

Certain fish are prone to certain diseases, fish from a centralized system are subject to any disease that may have been in the system and wild fish most certainly have some "bugs" within them. Some which can takes weeks to surface. When I get fish from a store I trust, I isolate them in a qt tank with a sponge filter and limited items in the tank ( other than hiding places or plastic plants) and just observe and treat appropriately as needed. With known wild fish or questionable fish, I will deworm them immediately then again, isolate for 6 weeks min. before adding to a main tank.

As for meds, I have used API's general Cure, Tetra's Parasite guard and straight Metronidazole for internal parasites, copper or CLOUT for external parasites and I keep nitrofuazone on hand for bacterial issues the fish may develop. I also use Kanamycyn after treating and confirming internal parasites were present.
Sometimes, it's more about being prepared for the "IF" they have something than hopefully reacting fast enough to it once you figure out what they have. If you see stuff in the middle of the night, and no stores are open, what do you do when waiting to treat the fish leads to dead fish? A QT tank is your other fish's best friend

Hope this helps

 

[NigelK8485]

Yeah all replies definitely helped. I'm quickly learning the lesson to keep medications on stock. Today was supposed to be the final day for the General Cure to help the remaining rainbows that came with parasites. As I was observing them I noticed one covered in white specks...and a second with a few white dots. So now I'm convinced they have ich which I'm guessing is due to them battling parasites. I will never order from that website again. I had to run out and buy some aquarium salt and also picked up API Super Ick Cure. I raised the temperature from 79 to 86 in a 12 hour span. Then I didn't have much time before I had to go to work so I held off on adding any salt or medication until I could actually be around to watch how they react. Hopefully once I make it past this hurdle it'll be pretty smooth sailing.


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[fish wrangler]

If they have ich the method i used to treat my tank was heat. Turn up the heater to 86-88 degrees for 2 weeks and it kills the ich. No medications or salt needed ime

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[Mebbid]

If they have ich then your general cure treatment didn't work. Ich is taken out quite readily by general cure.

Also, NEVER combine medications and heat treatment. It usually has fatal results.

 

[Tolak]

Also, NEVER combine medications and heat treatment. It usually has fatal results.

While this generally holds true for antibiotics, other medications & ailments benefit from increased temperatures.

 

[fish wrangler]

While this generally holds true for antibiotics, other medications & ailments benefit from increased temperatures.

With meds you would increase the heat to 82 degrees to speed up the ich life cycle, thus making the meds mpre effective. Heat treating at 88 degrees breaks the life cycle. Combining meds and 88 degrees is to stressful on the fish.

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[NigelK8485]

If they have ich then your general cure treatment didn't work. Ich is taken out quite readily by general cure.



Also, NEVER combine medications and heat treatment. It usually has fatal results.

Are you sure? They were having white stringy feces before and now they're normal. So I feel like it did work. I read that ich isn't able to be treated by medication until in the phase where it can be visibly seen and is detached from the host, so is it possible that it was just lying beneath the surface basically and just now popped up? I have no clue what to do with these fish, I'm extremely upset with the company that sent them.


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[Tolak]

With meds you would increase the heat to 82 degrees to speed up the ich life cycle, thus making the meds mpre effective. Heat treating at 88 degrees breaks the life cycle. Combining meds and 88 degrees is to stressful on the fish.

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As stated, other medications & ailments.

 

[Mebbid]

As stated, other medications & ailments.

There's actually quite a lot of correlation between toxicity of medications and higher temps. Malachite green is the most notable which is used in a lot of ich treatments.

 

[Tolak]

There's actually quite a lot of correlation between toxicity of medications and higher temps. Malachite green is the most notable which is used in a lot of ich treatments.

Yes, and with others, such as metronidazole heat is an asset in treatment, as it precipitates out of a solution at cooler temperatures. That being the case I disagree with the "never" statement.

 

[Mebbid]

Yes, and with others, such as metronidazole heat is an asset in treatment, as it precipitates out of a solution at cooler temperatures. That being the case I disagree with the "never" statement.

Would you mind pointing me in the direction of where you found that out with metronidazole? I'd be interested in reading that

 

[Tolak]

Same treatment I've been using for a decade. Finding the original article may be difficult, after that amount of time the link is saved 4 computers back. Finding reference to it shouldn't be too hard. Being 1:30am it probably isn't happening tonight.

 

[NigelK8485]

The directions on the API Super Ick Cure say that turning your heater up to 82 can make the product work quicker.

So right now I have the rainbows in a quarantine tank. I figured I might as well treat my main tank as well just in case. I did turn the heat up in it as well and was planning on adding aquarium salt to it. I've got a Senegal bichir in there but have read he should do okay through the salt treatment, and I've also got some plants, Anubias and two swords, but given how hardy they are I'm guessing they'll be able to pull through. How much salt should I add? I've seen anywhere from 1tsp a gallon to 1tsp every five gallons. It's 150 gallon tank.


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[Tolak]

Would you mind pointing me in the direction of where you found that out with metronidazole? I'd be interested in reading that

Spironucleus - Hole In The Head, Head and Lateral Line Disease

4.1.2.1 Dosage in water

This is the option for non-eating discus. Firstly it should be remembered that metronidazole in water is assumed to enter the fish like most antibiotics, across the gill membranes and directly into the blood stream - and many of the 'older' doses were calculated on just that. However, it is our opinion that the delivered dose is considerably lower than the 'older hobby science' portrays. The evidence to support this is that the medical literature states that metronidazole in IV solutions has a 6 - 8 hr half life, it is temperature sensitive either side of its optimum, and at temperatures under ~ 28oC it can precipitate out of solution. Furthermore, it is light sensitive whilst in solution, and will begin breaking down on exposure. Now none of us IV our discus, but we do expose the metronidazole to an illuminated aquatic environment, high temps, and for some considerable period of time. Therefore, there is no way that a professional 'standard' dose can be calculated if the metro is going to be added to the water in this manner - there are simply to many individual random variables to take into consideration. At best, one can come up with an 'informed' suggested dosage - that may need adapting according to individual parameters and needs.

 

[NigelK8485]

Well the rainbows seem to have less white spots on them today. I went ahead and did about a 50% water change on the quarantine tank really focusing on the bare bottom of it to suck out any speck of anything. I threw a heater in the tank that is wayyyy too many watts and too big but it's adjustable whereas the one before just had a plus and minus sign. I've got them set at around 82 degrees. The fish in the main tank all seem completely fine but I'm continuing with the heat method, they were set at about 87 degrees but the bichir has just been hanging out at the top so I started decreasing the temperature to about 85. I'm providing as much surface agitation as possible and started building a 5' spraybar today for the tank to help out with aeration. Tomorrow I'll drill the holes in the pipe and get it hooked up so hopefully everything works out, there seems to be some sign of progress.


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[Mebbid]

Spironucleus - Hole In The Head, Head and Lateral Line Disease

4.1.2.1 Dosage in water

This is the option for non-eating discus. Firstly it should be remembered that metronidazole in water is assumed to enter the fish like most antibiotics, across the gill membranes and directly into the blood stream - and many of the 'older' doses were calculated on just that. However, it is our opinion that the delivered dose is considerably lower than the 'older hobby science' portrays. The evidence to support this is that the medical literature states that metronidazole in IV solutions has a 6 - 8 hr half life, it is temperature sensitive either side of its optimum, and at temperatures under ~ 28oC it can precipitate out of solution. Furthermore, it is light sensitive whilst in solution, and will begin breaking down on exposure. Now none of us IV our discus, but we do expose the metronidazole to an illuminated aquatic environment, high temps, and for some considerable period of time. Therefore, there is no way that a professional 'standard' dose can be calculated if the metro is going to be added to the water in this manner - there are simply to many individual random variables to take into consideration. At best, one can come up with an 'informed' suggested dosage - that may need adapting according to individual parameters and needs.

I love when aquarium sites use sources. It would save me from doing a ton of digging. In short, the ONLY thing I could find when looking for information on this, including using my nursing textbooks and drug books was regarding an IV dosage of the medication

"Packaging and storage:
Store below 40 °C (104 °F), preferably between 15 and 30 °C (59 and 86 °F), unless otherwise specified by manufacturer. Protect from light during storage. {07} {08} Protect from freezing."

If metronidazole precipitated out of solution below 82 degrees then it would be a big problem in the medical field because it is given as an IV solution since it's stored at room temperature. We aren't allowed to administer any IV medication that has any sort of precipitation of the contents. Precipitation occurs when refrigerated or too great of a concentration happens.

Flagyl I.V. Drug Information, Professional

It was a fun search, but it looks like regurgitated information that has passed from forum to forum and wound it's way onto that site.

Furthermore, if it truly precipitated out of solution that easily then it would either A: be indicated to raise the temperature on the directions or B: be a completely useless medication.

 

[Tolak]

It states it can. Not will. As I stated, I'm looking for a link from over 10 years back, that's the closest I can find. From personal experience 82F poses no problem with metro, though as is wise with any tank with an increased temperature there's plenty of surface motion, thus water motion to keep the O2 level up. I can't recall ever having used it below 80F.

Looks like I'll give a call to my pals at National Fish Pharmacy come Monday, folks with a PharmD & some vast knowledge in how pharmaceuticals relate to fish. My sister the RN with a MS degree has quite a library, going back many years, I can ask her to look into it. She may hand me a box of books.

Since in the medical field you'd be administering metro in a sterile solution I wonder if the serious lack of sterility in an aquarium may come into play with the precipitation issue. With a sterile saline solution you'll very much have control over the TDS & the components dissolved in the water, in an aquarium not so much.

I personally haven't set foot in any sort of med school, I've only got a couple decades of experience with fish, 10+ running a fishroom designed for breeding angels at a profit. I learn, apply, and adjust if & when needed. For years. No matter how many years anyone keeps at this, you'll never know everything. A bigger part is knowing resources who do know a particular area quite well. When there's any uncertainty I correspond with them. The solution thing has me wondering now, thanks for the link, I'll certainly get back to this once I find any related information.