The real importance of PH, nitrates, etc?

[Skyrmir]

One inch of fish per gallon will produce enough ammonia to reach toxic levels in 1 day (permanent although usually not debilitating damage), after 2 days weaker fish will start to die, the hardier the fish, the longer they'll last. Neon's usually start to fall over dead within 2-3 days, others start to follow soon after. Even Betta's that can breath air when needed can die from thier own ammonia poisoning.

Less fish per gallon mitigate the process a bit, as usually within a week or two the ammonia cycle finishes up. Fish that survive to that point are weakened and likely to end up with tumors or infections. Once the ammonia portion of the cycle finishes, the nitrites start to climb. It's just as bad for the fish, but drawn out over weeks instead of days. Depending on fish to water ratio, temperature, o2 and filtration the nitrite part of the cycle will take 2-6 weeks. Without water changes, only the hardiest of fish will survive until the end.

Once the cycle is finished, your tests should show 0 ammonia and nitrite and your nitrates will begin to climb. Weekly water changes take care of the nitrates, and it's safe to add a few fish at a time.

Since you already have fish in the tank, I'd say either take them back to the LFS and finish the cycle with store bought ammonia, or daily 50% water changes for the next month or so until the cycle finishes.

 

[QTOFFER]

I like this article about the nitrogen cycle because it has a nice graph that really explains what is going on.
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html

When you set up an aquarium for the first time, you have a glass box of perfectly clean, dechlorinated water. (BTW, you are using a dechlorinating water conditioner, right?!?! Chlorine in the tap water is a killer unless it's detoxified.)

Anyway, when you add fish, they immediately start producing ammonia waste. Add to that any decomposing leftover fish food that you put in, and the ammonia can quickly rise to toxic and deadly levels.

The cycle is nothing more than a bacteria-driven process that converts extremely toxic ammonia to less toxic nitrate. Without it, we would have to completely change our tank water several times a day in order to keep our fish alive. So lets hear it for bacteria!!!

The cycle is made possible by two separate classes of bacteria that spontaneously colonize your tank and filter. These bacteria are found in small numbers in the air and on your skin. They are also found in dense colonies that cover nearly every solid surface in a well established aquarium. In fact, you can speed up the cycle by adding some gravel or filter media that had been in an established tank for some time.

One type of bacteria converts toxic ammonia to slightly less toxic nitrite. The other converts nitrite to even less toxic nitrate. There is no bacteria that feeds on nitrate; you need to remove it by doing small weekly water changes.

You need to monitor the cycling process closely for the first few weeks by testing the water for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate every day or so. An aquarium is considered "cycled" when nitrates are present AND the ammonia and nitrite levels remain at 0 for a few consecutive days. HTH

 

[Fishyfanatic]

He is on well water, so no need for dechlorinator. Great info from Skyrmir and QTOFFER!

 

[Lonewolfblue]

One inch of fish per gallon will produce enough ammonia to reach toxic levels in 1 day (permanent although usually not debilitating damage), after 2 days weaker fish will start to die, the hardier the fish, the longer they'll last. Neon's usually start to fall over dead within 2-3 days, others start to follow soon after. Even Betta's that can breath air when needed can die from thier own ammonia poisoning.

Just curious where this info came from. At 1 time, I had about 2 inches fish per gallon in my 26G, and I did PWC's every 3 days, as that's when my ammonia levels were close to 1ppm, and occasionally just going over 1ppm. And this was when I was cycling with fish. Sometimes I did the PWC every 2 days just to keep it under 1ppm at the max. This was til I got cycled. Then I got my 55G and moved the bigger aggressive fish over. Currently I am over 1 inch of fish per gallon in my 55G and I do PWC's about every 5-7 days, and my ammonia and nitrate are 0ppm, and nitrates are right at about 20ppm. Just curious where the 1 inch of fish produces toxic levels of ammonia in 1 day come from.

 

[coolchinchilla]

He is on well water, so no need for dechlorinator. Great info from Skyrmir and QTOFFER!

FYI: My municiple water system is with well water and we have chlorine and chloramines added to it. I would tell you I have "well water" too. So just because someone has "well water" doesn't mean that there isn't chlorine.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

In another thread he stated that he is on well water and does not use Chlorine.

 

[Skyrmir]

Just curious where the 1 inch of fish produces toxic levels of ammonia in 1 day come from.

Put 10 gallons of water in a 10 gallon tank with 10 one inch goldfish, measure the ammonia the next day. Levels will be in the 1-2+ppm range depending on feeding. It only takes about .5ppm to qualify for toxic, around 2ppm it becomes poisonous. The difference being the amount of damage done. It's the human equivilant to arsenic, small amounts and your sick, but recover. Large amounts...not so much recovery.

Aquatic and amphibian animals lack Carbamoyl phosphate synthase (had to look it up). That most mammals and other land animals have. It's the enzyme that breaks down ammonia into harmless or useful chemicals. Thus they are a lot more sensitive to it than humans. You could safely drink water that would kill a fish (don't try this at home, there are limits).

As for your cycled tank, the fish still produce enough ammonia to kill themselves on a semi daily basis. But since the tank is 'cycled' the ammonia is converted to nitrite, then nitrate almost immediately. The bacteria in your tank compete to get the last bits of ammonia and nitrite out of the water to survive and reproduce. Since they happen to be good at this, your not likely to catch any when you try to test. It's like trying to see if there are piles of meat left in a pack of starving wolves.

Since the bacteria produce nitrate when they eat, that's what you find. (Careful where you step after giving the meat to said wolves).

The best way to look at fishkeeping is that you have a bacteria tank, that happens to have pretty fish in it. If you keep all the right bacteria happy, it just happens that you keep a pretty nice place for fish to live too.

Side note, while you can overstock a tank, and keep the fish healthy. It just takes more work, and it's more catastrophic if you miss some maintenence.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

hmmmm, just wondering if that's just with goldfish, as they are dirtier. I've never had goldfish, and don't want any. But when I first setup my 26G, I maxed it out and cycled with the fish. Took between 2-3 days to get 1ppm ammonia, which is why I did PWC's every 2-3 days. And the fish I had were rasboras, sharks, eels, and a few loaches. After a couple weeks, added a few more, which put me at nearly 2 fish per gallon. And still did PWC's every 2 or 3 days, depending on my ammonia and nitrite levels. I did 70% PWC's as well. But my ammonia and nitrite I would not let get over 1ppm. But interesting info you have there. Just wonder if it also depends on the type of fish you have as to the ammonia output.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

The best way to look at fishkeeping is that you have a bacteria tank, that happens to have pretty fish in it. If you keep all the right bacteria happy, it just happens that you keep a pretty nice place for fish to live too.

Side note, while you can overstock a tank, and keep the fish healthy. It just takes more work, and it's more catastrophic if you miss some maintenence.

I would completely agree with that.

 

[Skyrmir]

Over a long enough time the ammonia output actually depends on the amount of food you feed the fish (total fuel relates to total waste). Rasbora's are pretty clean fish, and loaches will scavenge food off the bottom before it rots into ammonia. Not sure on the sharks/eels. Neons and many tetra's produce little waste as well. On the other hand, goldfish and most live bearers tend to be a bit messy.

That's one of the reasons the 1 inch per gallon rule is really just a guideline. 30 neon's or rasbora's in a ten gallon would be way overstocked by the inch per gallon rule, but not really in danger of overloading the bacteria on a well maintained tank. At the same time, 1 koi might be less than 10 inches but too much for the tank without constant water changes. It's not so much a rule as a 'newbies do this to keep from killing fish' idea. And even advanced aquarists will think about it before breaking it.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Cool, lots of good info here. Hope you didn't feel like I was beating you up, I wasn't. That's what these forums are for, asking lots of questions, and getting results, so the newcomers aren't mis-informed. Thanks for all the info you presented, it's been a real good thread, IMO.

 

[7Enigma]

All the advice you've gotten so far is excellent, I'd like to add one more opinion. I agree that you are well overstocked, and your water is probably harming the fish as I write this. Two things I would do as soon as possible (that have not been meantioned in the thread yet).

1. Cut back feedings to every other, or once every 3 days. This will prevent extra ammonia from contaminating the water from the food that is not eaten, and also slow the metabolism and thus waste production of the fish. And don't worry, the fish won't be harmed during this time. They might hate you, but they will be healthier for it.

2. Go buy a bunch of low-light requiring plants ASAP! Get some Hornwort, java moss, java fern, and get them in the tank today. Unless you return all the fish (or a good number of them) you will probably have toxic conditions regardless of your PWC's (unless you have no job and sit in front of the tank for the next couple of weeks ). While I think for long term planning its better to establish a bacterial population first and then introduce plants (this is VERY debatable), in your situation the fact is you have a lot of ammonia being produced, soon you will have a lot of nitrIte AND ammonia being produced, and you need to take care of that. For the short term, a couple of plants will readily absorb the ammonia, so you won't get appreciable amounts of nitrIte, and should get lower nitrAtes because of this.

I'd like to hear other people's opinions as well, but in the 4 pages of posts I didn't see the plant recommendation or the lessened feedings. I know you don't want to return the fish, though I would ask you to, but if your not going to at least make it a bit more pleasant for them. Goodluck.

justin

 

[verucaproduce]

Very good point about the feedings. Personally I only feed once a day and skip a day once in a while, but I think you are right that we can get overzealous with feeding especially when we first get a tank. Good call!

The plants definitely wouldn't hurt. If you find that you are in a money crunch, you can visit the Walmart fish section and look for the little bulbs that come in a bubble pack. They are apons and will grow in just about any tank and any light. They are only a couple of bucks and if they don't end up spouting you can send to the company and they will mail you back new bulbs (just save your receipt).

Returning all of the fish would be ideal. Then cycle with ammonia. Exactly how many fish are left in the tank?

 

[waynephinney]

I honestly don't even know how many fish I have. I think tonight I'm going to take an inventory of them.

Clearly I'm feeding them too much. I was told to feed them 2-3 times a day, and I was giving them two pinches of food because they were able to eat that within a few minutes, or so I thought. When I did the cleaning the other day, I noticed that much of it was just falling to the gravel. So, I reduced it to once a day simply for the cleanliness of the tank since they weren't eating it all anyhow. I was also told that if I wanted my Iridescent to grow that I should throw in a shrimp every once in a while. Well, the red tails are doing most of the shrimp eating, but they haven't finished it yet and it's been in there for two days. I'm sure that's not helping things.

When I got up this morning I noticed that the water is starting to get a little cloudy (white) which it has done one before and is what prompted the last PWC.

Nobody ever mentioned anything to me about plants. I've heard that snails are a major pain when it comes to plants, and I have three snails. They're illegal to sell in my area, but I got them to throw them in a bag while I was buying fish and giving them to me for free. I wanted them for the sake of helping keep the tank clean, much the same reason I want a couple of crabs.

I'll need to see if the pet store has some plants, but I don't think they have any real ones. I only have about $20 left because my fiancee just decided to surprise me with her needing some schoolbooks. Her classes start today and she's all like "oh, btw, I need some money for books." Couldn't have told me two weeks ago before I bought the aquarium. Ugh.

Tonight when i do the PWC I'll remove the shrimp from the tank. I won't feed them today. I'll give them just a pinch tomorrow and keep doing that every other day to see if it helps. I'll also test my tap water with those strips and see if there's something in my tap water hurting things.

Everyone was telling me "fish are so easy!" Easy my butt! I knew I should have gotten an ant farm.

Not that I don't like my fishies, but I hate not knowing what I'm doing. On the upside, I am learning something new, so there is a benefit to all of this after all.

Also, no more dead fishies tomorrow. The little silvery tetras with the little dot of red over their eyes weren't looking so hot last night. The other two are the ones that already died, so I don't know if those two will still be alive when I get home tonight. Hard saying.

I've been really watching the fix, and hte others seem active and healthy, but I'm not exactly experienced with this. I'm not seeing any gasping for air at the surface, tucking fins at the side, or any non-fishy bahavior. Hopefully that means the rest of the fish a bit hardier. The sharks and the guppies seem to be the least affected by all of this.

 

[7Enigma]

OK couple things I'd do right away in regards to your last post.

1. You got the shrimp out. That was not a great thing to have rotting in the tank as it will release ammonia and the fish that do pick at it will probably be messy eaters (with lots of shimp bits falling to the ground to rot).

2. Snails are a good thing in most tanks, and they will not overrun a tank that is properly maintained.

3. Stop feeding the fish for at least 2 days. No flakes, no nothing.

4. Do a good 30-50% PWC now. Do another one tonight. Do another one tomorrow BUT....make sure you match the temperature of the water you are adding back into the tank so as to not shock them (also add the dechlorinator if you have it, REGARDLESS of whether you have chlorine in your tap water or not. It will help to bind up some of the ammonia if its similar to Prime).

Do the water change with a gravel filter. Suck the water from the gravel bottom getting all that uneaten rotting food off the bottom of the tank which is most definately increasing the ammonia level in their. Get in the corners especially where food products might hide. If you have coarse gravel, food might have fallen down between the cracks and will rot and further increase ammonia. AFTER doing the PWC's and gravel cleaning, stir up the gravel and do another PWC. This should help to make the only thing that is contaminating the tank is the fish.

As for plants, they are cheap (normally 2-5 bucks a piece). With $20 you can get a bunch, but I would go with about 5 or so. I'd get 1 or 2 java moss. These can float in the water. I'd tie them somehow so they are directly in the path of the water coming out of the filter (so they get a constant supply of ammonia). I'd get some Hornwort as well, and plant them around the tank. A couple of these plants in your most likely high ammonia water will start soaking up nutrients like crazy (and will probably grow very quickly). I'd keep the lights on for at least 8hours per day, but keep an eye out for algae (though I wonder if this would be a bad thing? as it would be consuming the ammonia that would harm the fish).

HTH

justin

 

[waynephinney]

1. You got the shrimp out. That was not a great thing to have rotting in the tank as it will release ammonia and the fish that do pick at it will probably be messy eaters (with lots of shimp bits falling to the ground to rot)

Yeah, I was unaware that it would cause any problems to leave it in there for a few days. I'll fix that.

2. Snails are a good thing in most tanks, and they will not overrun a tank that is properly maintained.

Well, that's good to know. Hopefully they will breed and give me more snails.

3. Stop feeding the fish for at least 2 days. No flakes, no nothing.

Nothing at all? Ugh... I hate doing that, but if that will help. I'd rather they go hungry than be poisoned.

4. Do a good 30-50% PWC now. Do another one tonight. Do another one tomorrow BUT....make sure you match the temperature of the water you are adding back into the tank so as to not shock them

Thankfully temperature isn't an issue. Last time I did a PWC I just did it by touch and the temp in the tank went from 80 to 81. I'd say that's not bad by going by touch. I was actually considering doing 50% tonight anyhow to try to get things taken care of.

As for the plants, I'll pick up some moss if I can find it. If it floats, it'll probably stay close to the filter. I got a couple of bio balls because I figured every little bit helps. Those stay right by the flow of the water coming from the filter.

I'll keep you guys posted after I get home and get all of this done.

 

[BrianNY]

I've never heard of plants taking up ammonia or nitrites. They will consume nitrates, but are really only effective if driven with high lighting so IMO plants are not the answer here.

About the best thing you could do wayne, is try and get some media from an established filter to run on your tank. My lfs runs box filters in some of their tanks. I would look to borrow or buy one from an existing tank if your lfs is using any.

Here's a bizzare thought..... The people at your lfs don't even know what the nitrogen cycle is. If it were me, I would gently chastize them for selling you so many fish at one time. You may even get some store credit when you explain to them what you've learned here.

 

[waynephinney]

Plants will consume nitrates? If I'm learning correctly, isn't that the last stage after ammoinia and nitrites and stuff? If so, then having those will likely be beneficial for me in the end anyhow.

I cashed my paycheck today and my girl got her school loan today so she doesn't need my money for books. I can buy some good testing supplies now.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

Yes, plants consume nitrates. They are very beneficial to an aquarium. They also feed off of fish waste which is also a big plus.

Another great plant that thrives in low light is Anacharis and it is usually always available.

 

[waynephinney]

I tend to leave the light on 12-16 hours a day (depends on when I wake up and whatnot). Do I need to be concerned about any of those plants if I do that or will some of them be fine with lots of light.

The aquarium itself is in a basement bedroom, so there's not a lot of natural light.