The Wrong Idea

[GodFan]

This may be controversial and I hope we can all discuss this kindly and not have it get to heated but I believe we may have the wrong idea about fish keeping. I think we have begun to rely to heavily on technology and not heavily enough on the natural processes God put in place.

Now I am not saying that technology is not at place in the aquarium because I believe it does trust me! I run a new LED light on my display tank with a nice remote and lots of setting. And as far as heaters go I think we need more technology to prevent some of the catastrophic failures that cost some people their whole livestock! But technology has its limits and I believe we add more work to ourselves and sometimes more stress on our fish by relying on the tech.

Think about this. Our goal as aquarist is to provide the best environment for our fish. By best I mean the environment that will promote the most health and limit stress to a minimum. In other words we need to replicate a fish's natural environment as closely as possible (minus decor as most fish could care less if they get to hide in a completely natural cave or a neon rainbow spongebob fortress). In their natural environment most fish do not experience sudden drops in water level followed by an influx of new (and probably chemical filled) water.

The main difference between the wild and our aquarium is volume. We have to make less water just as clean. Hence when nitrates build up we change the water to bring them down (I have to wonder if nitrate levels in the wild fluctuate so much). This all makes sense however if we can keep the nitrates down a natural way that didn't involve stressing the fish with water changes wouldn't that be ideal? (Before you go on about TDS just follow my line of reasoning. I will address that issue next) Most aquariums can have live plants to some degree or another. Either growing out of the filter, growing in the tank, or even in a refugim. Plants naturally lower nitrates and with the proper plants and the proper amounts we can eliminate them altogether at times.

TDS. Total Dissolved Substance. The biggest argument against low water change methods of aquarium keeping. TDS occurs when you do not take out water (in a PWC) that has dissolved material in it. Tap water has less dissolved in it so your aquarium TDS is diluted. However what effect does TDS really have? The research to know isn't really there yet. We dont know however we can base our educated guesses on 2 things: our experience and our knowledge of nature.

Experience. In my experience (tentative experience) TDS effects some fish more than others. I have run tanks for months with no water changes before. I have noticed that most fish do well in that kind of setup. Some do not. I would not recommend a person try this method on discus, cichlids, some tetras (Ember tetras seem to not like it), or any fish that hails from pristine waters or is very sensitive.

Nature. Nature is what we base our tanks on so it should be a good indicator of what we need to strive for! In nature their are som many diverse environments. Some fish come from sluggish or stagnant waters that have a high TDS and some come from swift pristine waters with very low TDS. It really comes down to the individual species.

Basically my argument is that most fish we keep in our aquariums would do fine with much less frequent PWCs-perhaps even better. I think that once a week or even once every 2 weeks is alittle too often! If filled with plants we could go down to once a month or even less for the right setup! I know this isn't a popular stance to take but it is gaining ground in the hobby and I think with good reason. We are learning.

I am hoping we can have some good conversation on this! Please keep all replies respectful! I really do not want this thread to turn into a big fight! This is just something I have been thinking about and wanted to put out there!

Thanks and God bless!

 

[Betta Platy Addict]

I'm new to the hobby and know less than nothing, but would like to follow to hopefully learn something.

 

[GodFan]

I'm new to the hobby and know less than nothing, but would like to follow to hopefully learn something.

Welcome you are at the right place to learn (this forum not the thread lol)

 

[bud29]

I think that while it is possible to have a more natural-style self sustaining setup, we are not really doing the fish a disservice by having a higher-maintenance setup. I also think that part of the reason people tend to veer away from natural tanks is aesthetics. For obvious reasons, those kind of tanks do not look as good as more manicured high tech setups.

 

[jwh0818]

Welcome you are at the right place to learn (this forum not the thread lol)

I do agree with you 100% but what about some people who overstock? There are plenty here that do it. We can only give them our best knowledge to help them keep their fish alive whether they take it or not

 

[GodFan]

I think that while it is possible to have a more natural-style self sustaining setup, we are not really doing the fish a disservice by having a higher-maintenance setup. I also think that part of the reason people tend to veer away from natural tanks is aesthetics. For obvious reasons, those kind of tanks do not look as good as more manicured high tech setups.

Not necessarliy. I run low maintenance on all of my tanks and have a very nife looking display tank in my living room. Granted it does and will get more attention that my others it still gets alot less than considersd normal.



And yes alot of people overstock but overstocking depends on 2 things: bioload and swimming space. Itbis impossible to have a tank overstocked on biolaod as long as you are willing to keep up with the extra maintenance or have more plants than water. Swimming space is the real determiner of stocking level.

 

[Florio]

I actually used to do monthly water changes all the time cause I had so many plants and basically most planted aquarium people would agree its probably fine to so a water change NEVER if planted well enough.

But the reason we do weekly is cause of biological organisms that's grow in the tank and get fish sick. You have to do this or stuff like ich starts to grow and other nasty stuff.

There's the whole uv sterilizer mumbo jumbo but that's a whole other argument about if it kills good bacteria and such.

 

[GodFan]

I actually used to do monthly water changes all the time cause I had so many plants and basically most planted aquarium people would agree its probably fine to so a water change NEVER if planted well enough.

But the reason we do weekly is cause of biological organisms that's grow in the tank and get fish sick. You have to do this or stuff like ich starts to grow and other nasty stuff.

There's the whole uv sterilizer mumbo jumbo but that's a whole other argument about if it kills good bacteria and such.

Interesting. I have never heard about things growing in the tank. I knew some microrganism did but some fish snack on them. I have never had an ich outbreak in any of my tanks that resulted from lack of water changes. Ich usually cannot infect healthy unstressed fish

 

[bud29]

Not necessarliy. I run low maintenance on all of my tanks and have a very nife looking display tank in my living room. Granted it does and will get more attention that my others it still gets alot less than considersd normal.

And yes alot of people overstock but overstocking depends on 2 things: bioload and swimming space. Itbis impossible to have a tank overstocked on biolaod as long as you are willing to keep up with the extra maintenance or have more plants than water. Swimming space is the real determiner of stocking level.

It definitely is possible to keep plants trimmed and looking nice - however, it is still function over form. You don't see many self-sustaining iwagumi setups and that's just because the owner chose aesthetics to be more important than self-sustainability.

As for water changes, I dont think that doing water changes really harms the fish - that idea mainly is based off the old practice of doing a huge water change just a few times a year - the systems would have old tank syndrome, and yes, at that point, parameters swing very dramatically. However, I dont think that in-tank readings change that much on a weekly basis - not enough to cause major amounts of stress from a pwc.

 

[Florio]

There is ALWAYS ich present in a tank. Just not always enough of it to infect a fish they can handle a little bit of crap thanks to their immune system . Over time more of it accumulates and there is enough present for it to infect fish and start hosting. Same goes for other things that can harm your fish.

 

[jwh0818]

There is ALWAYS ich present in a tank. Just not always enough of it to infect a fish they can handle a little bit of crap thanks to their immune system . Over time more of it accumulates and there is enough present for it to infect fish and start hosting. Same goes for other things that can harm your fish.

You know not all tanks get ich right? You have to introduce it by a contaminated object or fish or plant. This is where a qt tank comes in handy

 

[Florio]

You know not all tanks get ich right? You have to introduce it by a contaminated object or fish or plant. This is where a qt tank comes in handy

Yeah maybe there's a chance you don't have a little bit of ich in there, but you probably do just from introduction of fish from your lfs. I know for a fact every single stocking tank at my lfs has had ich outbreaks at one point or another.

I haven't had ich in my tank for over a year but down at microscopic levels you will find traces of ich still.

What in trying to say here is you may never get an out break but is still present in your tank. And water changes keeps it down stopping sickness and infections.

Edit: sorry didn't rear quarantine tank part.
Quarantine tanks are super useful I agree 100%.
If you do that they probably won't have ich in tank but there are still other stuff that can get in your tank just from your hand and the air.

 

[bud29]

There is ALWAYS ich present in a tank. Just not always enough of it to infect a fish they can handle a little bit of crap thanks to their immune system . Over time more of it accumulates and there is enough present for it to infect fish and start hosting. Same goes for other things that can harm your fish.

That is something that has been regurgitated from person to person but has no scientific evidence behind it. It is true that ich can be present in a tank without you being able to see it - however once you kill it, it doesn't linger around for years on end. It is gone, unless you add another fish that carries it. That is why many saltwater fishkeepers place their fish in hyposalinity before adding the fish to the display tank - the hypo kills the parasite once and for all, so it does not get into the main tank. Also, It does not need a set amount of parasites present to strike, it will just strike if the fish is weak.

 

[Dallascowboys16]

I have a heavily planted 55 gallon and only do small 5 gallon bi weekly water changes instead of the usual 30-40% that a lot of people recommend to do weekly. I have found that small frequent water changes are much more beneficial to the eco system in a tank than monster water changes weekly. With that said I don't bielieve in that closed eco system thing where hardly any water changes are required as things do build up in an aquarium even with a huge amount of live plants. Yes I do believe in water changes some what frequently but not the huge water changes that many people in the hobby have become accustomed to.

 

[GodFan]

I think the stress of us having our hands in the tank and pulling water and pouring it back in may be detrimental to the fish. Not enough to cause sickness but I can tell you that some fish dont like it. My scarlet badis always looked sickly after a water change. And during the water change...

 

[Florio]

Anyways regardless about ich. Maybe I'm wrong but you're fish have a high chance if getting sick from bacteria when you don't water change enough.

 

[bud29]

I have a heavily planted 55 gallon and only do small 5 gallon bi weekly water changes instead of the usual 30-40% that a lot of people recommend to do weekly. I have found that small frequent water changes are much more beneficial to the eco system in a tank than monster water changes weekly. With that said I don't bielieve in that closed eco system thing where hardly any water changes are required as things do build up in an aquarium even with a huge amount of live plants. Yes I do believe in water changes some what frequently but not the huge water changes that many people in the hobby have become accustomed to.

The large, frequent water change routine is more of a new idea as opposed to the previous "deep clean 3 times a year" mentality. I still have yet to find any evidence proving that water changes are bad, granted the parameters of the incoming water are the same as the water removed - I have found equally minimal information regarding the benefit of smaller water changes as opposed to large ones. Obviously if the tap parameters are wildly different than the tank parameters, smaller is better. However, granted that hardness, ph, temp, tds, etc stay the same, large water changes are no worse than small ones.

 

[bud29]

I think the stress of us having our hands in the tank and pulling water and pouring it back in may be detrimental to the fish. Not enough to cause sickness but I can tell you that some fish dont like it. My scarlet badis always looked sickly after a water change. And during the water change...

I think we would all be scared if something 50 times our size intermittently came into our houses - but detrimental? I am unaware of any studies or articles pertaining to permanent effects of putting our hands in the tank.

Anyways regardless about ich. Maybe I'm wrong but you're fish have a high chance if getting sick from bacteria when you don't water change enough.

Even in stagnant waters, there is little bacteria afloat in the water column - so water changes will not help in that respect. Clean water will help keep a fish's immunity up but not water changes themselves.

 

[Goldfish loach boy]

What?!

When I do my water changes, my rainbows, mollies, and angelfish come to my hands so I can run their bellies! I don't think that that's bad for them, no?

 

[GodFan]

What?!

When I do my water changes, my rainbows, mollies, and angelfish come to my hands so I can run their bellies! I don't think that that's bad for them, no?

The idea here is not that it is bad for all fish. I have had live bearers that like you fish seemed to enjoy it. However my scarlet badis used to turn black and lethargic. Some fish are terrified by water changes. In that instance I am making the case that natutal water purification through plants may be a better option.