This can't be normal, part 2 - QT debate

[aqua_holic]

If your fish has one of the heat-resistant strains of Ich, it'll be more like 89 degrees. And if your fish is sub-tropical, it's definitely stress-inducing, especially if the fish is infected.



For the fish that you keep, what you're doing may not be a big deal. But I wouldn't suggest that it's for everybody.

Well as I said I treat to 89 as standard procedure because of my experience with a heat resistant strain. In my experience administering the treatment on cold water fish, it's really nothing. For the 50+ species (spanning almost all families of fish), it's been a non issue.

I agree that it may not be for everyone, but it is something about which everyone should spend some time thinking.

 

[PNWaquarist]

So we can finally agree to disagree?

 

[RackinRocky]

WHEW! I only posted this last night, and I log on tonight, and there are over 4 pages of replies! I can see the point each of you are making. Certain things make sense to me on both sides. Removing the fish, or not. Treating the main tank or not.

I, however, have a special case. I had columnaris in my main tank for a long time, and lost many, many fish. This has been the longest space of time I've had without it (nearly 5 months now). In the past, it's come back over and over, and once, 4 months elapsed between outbreaks. AND I hadn't added any new fish in between! Also, I have Mountain Cloud Minnows, which are sub-tropical (as you know) and I worry about the heat stressing them, even though it's been stated that they can take it. I just don't like making them miserable. I wouldn't want to be forced to stay in 120 degree heat, for instance. AND I also have Golden Dojo loaches and a Kuhli Loach in that tank, and I know how sensitive they are to meds and salt. Not to mention the last time I had ich, my plants nearly died, and have not been the same since.

Anyway, the main reason I didn't want to treat the main tank was because of the columnaris. I was terrified to bump up the temp for fear of encouraging another outbreak. So, as you can see, I'm in a quandary.

Latest update is the fish I isolated with my fiddler crabs is now gone. The crabs ate her! Yep, that's what it had to be, as there was no body to be found. Since the crabs don't get ich, I felt it was a good idea to put her in there, as the crabs are brackish. I've read before that fiddlers usually will not go for fish, but the crab tank has a low water level, and I'm sure they must have trapped her and she couldn't escape.

Today, all my fish are acting normal again. I think they were just ready to go to "bed" since it was time for it last night. They must have been tired, lol. No spots so far on any of the other fish, but it's only been a couple of days since I brought the fish with ich home, so I'll have to watch them carefully. Frankly, I don't know what in the world I'll do if they DO come down with ich. There are about 23 fish in that tank, and also the loaches, as I mentioned, and the threat of columnaris raising it's ugly head again. I'll be in big trouble. I'm just hoping it won't show up. I did cure ich on a Giant Danio by removing him from the tank and into iso for a week, with heat and salt. Put him back, and he was clear, and no one else got it. This was over a year ago. So I'll just have to hope none of the ich was at the stage yet to fall off into the water. Thanks so much for all the comments! Real food for thought!

 

[PNWaquarist]

On a serious note, I'm also sorry to hear about your recurring outbreaks. That has to be really frustrating. Columnaris is a bacterial infection, so you definitely don't want to treat with heat. Salt is said to work at concentrations of 1% or higher, but you'll need to re-house the loaches if you go that route. If you experience another outbreak, antibiotics are your best bet. (I'm assuming you've tried that already.)

In the meantime, focus on prevention. Change out at least 25% of the water every week, vacuum the substrate weekly, and don't over-feed. Do what you can to remove stresses. Feed a healthy, balanced diet, give your fish lots of hiding places, don't overstock, etc. Columnaris bacteria is pretty widespread in the trade and I imagine is present in many tanks. The immune systems of fish that are healthy, not stressed, and live in tanks not littered with high levels of nitrates and organic matter are usually able to fight it off. You may never completely get rid of the bacteria, but you can still keep it in check and have healthy fish.

 

[Delapool]

WHEW! I only posted this last night, and I log on tonight, and there are over 4 pages of replies! I can see the point each of you are making. Certain things make sense to me on both sides. Removing the fish, or not. Treating the main tank or not.

I, however, have a special case. I had columnaris in my main tank for a long time, and lost many, many fish. This has been the longest space of time I've had without it (nearly 5 months now). In the past, it's come back over and over, and once, 4 months elapsed between outbreaks. AND I hadn't added any new fish in between! Also, I have Mountain Cloud Minnows, which are sub-tropical (as you know) and I worry about the heat stressing them, even though it's been stated that they can take it. I just don't like making them miserable. I wouldn't want to be forced to stay in 120 degree heat, for instance. AND I also have Golden Dojo loaches and a Kuhli Loach in that tank, and I know how sensitive they are to meds and salt. Not to mention the last time I had ich, my plants nearly died, and have not been the same since.

Anyway, the main reason I didn't want to treat the main tank was because of the columnaris. I was terrified to bump up the temp for fear of encouraging another outbreak. So, as you can see, I'm in a quandary.

Latest update is the fish I isolated with my fiddler crabs is now gone. The crabs ate her! Yep, that's what it had to be, as there was no body to be found. Since the crabs don't get ich, I felt it was a good idea to put her in there, as the crabs are brackish. I've read before that fiddlers usually will not go for fish, but the crab tank has a low water level, and I'm sure they must have trapped her and she couldn't escape.

Today, all my fish are acting normal again. I think they were just ready to go to "bed" since it was time for it last night. They must have been tired, lol. No spots so far on any of the other fish, but it's only been a couple of days since I brought the fish with ich home, so I'll have to watch them carefully. Frankly, I don't know what in the world I'll do if they DO come down with ich. There are about 23 fish in that tank, and also the loaches, as I mentioned, and the threat of columnaris raising it's ugly head again. I'll be in big trouble. I'm just hoping it won't show up. I did cure ich on a Giant Danio by removing him from the tank and into iso for a week, with heat and salt. Put him back, and he was clear, and no one else got it. This was over a year ago. So I'll just have to hope none of the ich was at the stage yet to fall off into the water. Thanks so much for all the comments! Real food for thought!

I did that and heat treated for ich about 2 months after columnaris. Lost all my rasbora's to a repeat columnaris attack. I think you are right to be wary.

 

[Caliban07]

Ich is by far the easiest ailment in fish keeping to cure. No need to make it more difficult. If you were to try just using heat, I'm confident that you will feel differently about all this.

+1


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[Caliban07]

In the meantime, focus on prevention. Change out at least 25% of the water every week, vacuum the substrate weekly, and don't over-feed. Do what you can to remove stresses. Feed a healthy, balanced diet, give your fish lots of hiding places, don't overstock, etc. Columnaris bacteria is pretty widespread in the trade and I imagine is present in many tanks. The immune systems of fish that are healthy, not stressed, and live in tanks not littered with high levels of nitrates and organic matter are usually able to fight it off. You may never completely get rid of the bacteria, but you can still keep it in check and have healthy fish.

This is precisely the reason I don't QT.

My first assignment for disease limiting disease outbreaks comes at the LFS. Obvious observational signs of stress and disease. I stay away from those tanks. If the tank looks ok I will inevitably go for the best looking fish I.e size, colouring, behaviour.

My philosophy which has served me well so far but a philosophy nonetheless is that the sooner the fish is in an placed in an environment as described above, the better the chance it has of recovering on it's own. This has even greater probabilities if the acclimatisation process is done slowly.

For me personally, QT tanks are often stressors in themselves. The typical QT tank isn't lit or has a substrate, they are usually very sparsely decorated and often not cycled and the fish are on there own. After the fishes painstaking journey to reach the LFS the last thing I would want to do is place it in a tank as described above for a month or two. I believe that if it is carrying something then it has less chance of recovering.

I also never isolate a sick fish and dose the whole tank with the 'correct' medication. This proves costly but I feel safer in the knowledge that I am targeting the bacteria/parasite as a whole.

I understand why people QT though and I'm not saying people should not. This is just my general practice and I've had minimal losses so far.

Maybe me and my fish have been lucky.....



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[Ricky 1]

What a brilliant and knowledgeable thread this has been, a great read from all.........

 

[Brookster123]

This is precisely the reason I don't QT.

My first assignment for disease limiting disease outbreaks comes at the LFS. Obvious observational signs of stress and disease. I stay away from those tanks. If the tank looks ok I will inevitably go for the best looking fish I.e size, colouring, behaviour.

My philosophy which has served me well so far but a philosophy nonetheless is that the sooner the fish is in an placed in an environment as described above, the better the chance it has of recovering on it's own. This has even greater probabilities if the acclimatisation process is done slowly.

For me personally, QT tanks are often stressors in themselves. The typical QT tank isn't lit or has a substrate, they are usually very sparsely decorated and often not cycled and the fish are on there own. After the fishes painstaking journey to reach the LFS the last thing I would want to do is place it in a tank as described above for a month or two. I believe that if it is carrying something then it has less chance of recovering.

I also never isolate a sick fish and dose the whole tank with the 'correct' medication. This proves costly but I feel safer in the knowledge that I am targeting the bacteria/parasite as a whole.

I understand why people QT though and I'm not saying people should not. This is just my general practice and I've had minimal losses so far.

Maybe me and my fish have been lucky.....



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+1 I've qt ' d twice with a %50 fail rate. My last 6 batches of fish, from rams to apistos, tetras and cpds have gone right into the display. No issues (knock on wood). A bare bottom, often smaller tank with minimal decorations doesn't seem conducive to fish health.. imo anyways.. the only time I'd really consider a qt again would be with discus as they are high dollar fishies.

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[aqua_holic]

This can't be normal

This is precisely the reason I don't QT.

For me personally, QT tanks are often stressors in themselves. The typical QT tank isn't lit or has a substrate, they are usually very sparsely decorated and often not cycled and the fish are on there own.


I understand why people QT though and I'm not saying people should not. This is just my general practice and I've had minimal losses so far.

Maybe me and my fish have been lucky.....

First I will say that the quarantine tank you are describing is an extremely poor one, so if that's your idea of what a QT is then I'm not surprised you feel the way you do about it.

The goal of a quarantine tank is to be as stress free as possible. Being cycled is ESSENTIAL for a quarantine tank, an while I see many new people using uncycled quarantine tanks, they are by far the minority so to use that as a representative of the whole is just not accurate.

QT must have a light. How else are you going to observe and inspect the fish?? However, not having a light is not stressful to the fish. In fact it's quite the opposite.

All but one if my quarantine tanks have substrate, for bottom dwelling fish. However, they are the only fish that really care about that. Most others couldn't care less what was down there.

Most people DO put decor and stuff in the quarantine tank because they understand the fishs need for cover.

There may not be a "right" way to quarantine but there is definitely a wrong way to do it, which is what you described.


You've been lucky, and I hope your luck never runs out.

Me, I just culled the 4th and last kissing gourami that's been in quarantine (29 gallon, sand, plants, decor, Cycled AC70, light) for 3 months now. The other three have recently died from wasting disease, as the 4th would have. The fish looked terrific in the store, but once home I found out that they just wouldn't eat. Thankfully I did not rush them into my show tank. I learned that lesson the hard way already - lost 85% of a fully stocked tank to neon tetra disease.

 

[Caliban07]

First I will say that the quarantine tank you are describing is an extremely poor one, so if that's your idea of what a QT is then I'm not surprised you feel the way you do about it.

The goal of a quarantine tank is to be as stress free as possible. Being cycled is ESSENTIAL for a quarantine tank, an while I see many new people using uncycled quarantine tanks, they are by far the minority so to use that as a representative of the whole is just not accurate.

QT must have a light. How else are you going to observe and inspect the fish?? However, not having a light is not stressful to the fish. In fact it's quite the opposite.

All but one if my quarantine tanks have substrate, for bottom dwelling fish. However, they are the only fish that really care about that. Most others couldn't care less what was down there.

Most people DO put decor and stuff in the quarantine tank because they understand the fishs need for cover.

There may not be a "right" way to quarantine but there is definitely a wrong way to do it, which is what you described.


You've been lucky, and I hope your luck never runs out.

I don't think my description of the 'typical' QT tank as inaccurate. And I wasn't using it as a representative of a whole hence the words often and usually. It's very important to use words like this in posts to accentuate the idea that you are not tarnishing everything and everyone. I know there are exceptions such as yourself.

Many many QT tanks are put together only when needed. Sometimes using seeded media sometimes not. It's difficult to use seeded media from a tank that you suspect or know is infected. I am aware of many people due to other threads on the topic that just 'flush' the tank daily.

QT tanks that are quickly put together often do not undergo the careful attention to detail that should be given to create a stress free environment. Some do, some don't. I don't have the means to keep a sufficient QT tanking running 24/7. Especially one suitably large enough for the bigger fish.

As far as I'm aware fish need some sense of photoperiod? Whether the natural daylight provided is adequate I don't know.

I'm not sure your view on the substrate will be shared by many either.

All I'm saying is why I don't QT. I think all the fish stand a better chance being placed in an environment as close to nature as possible than what it was formerly acclimatised to.




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[aqua_holic]

This can't be normal

Unless you have black out curtains or a windowless room with the door closed, the ambient light of daytime provides the necessary photoperiod.

 

[aqua_holic]

This can't be normal

If someone wants to point to all the mistakes and poor practices as reason to not quarantine, then it seems like they would benefit from a discussion about the better, more effective ways of doing it.

 

[Brookster123]

It's been done.. a few times actaully.. it's really a matter of supply, if an individual's sole supply of fish is coming from a big box store with an abundance of sick/poor stock they'd be crazy not to qt by any means possible. where as an individual, such as myslef.. has access to a great lfs with top notch stock.. I don't really see a need to set up a qt, I look at my chosen stock for a little bit, ask ned if they're healthy, he usually writes the meds on the tank if they're not.. i float the bag, add some tank water and off they go. If I had to buy from spetgo or fetsmert than I'd be qt ing like champ

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[aqua_holic]

This can't be normal

Yes, I know all these topics have been discussed before, MANY times over. If we didn't keep redoing them then the forum would be pretty quiet. But while you and I may have seen several, it's always new to someone.

 

[aqua_holic]

This can't be normal

Gotcha, thank you for the explanation.

Looking back I can see how it could be interpreted in another light, but I honestly meant it - I'm always happy to continue an off topic debate in another thread

 

[PNWaquarist]

It's been done.. a few times actaully.. it's really a matter of supply, if an individual's sole supply of fish is coming from a big box store with an abundance of sick/poor stock they'd be crazy not to qt by any means possible. where as an individual, such as myslef.. has access to a great lfs with top notch stock.. I don't really see a need to set up a qt, I look at my chosen stock for a little bit, ask ned if they're healthy, he usually writes the meds on the tank if they're not.. i float the bag, add some tank water and off they go. If I had to buy from spetgo or fetsmert than I'd be qt ing like champ

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Even if you have a really good LFS, you're still at the mercy of the suppliers. My LFS is pretty good and they still get sick fish shipped to them in on occasion.

I'd still recommend QTing, though I've not QT'd in the past and have gotten away with it for the most part.


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[Brookster123]

Even if you have a really good LFS, you're still at the mercy of the suppliers. My LFS is pretty good and they still get sick fish shipped to them in on occasion.

I'd still recommend QTing, though I've not QT'd in the past and have gotten away with it for the most part.


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That's what I'm saying though, he'll medicate and treat sick fish that he receives before he sells them to me in the other customers

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[aqua_holic]

This can't be normal

Brookster I know you mentioned quarantining discus, because of how expensive they are, but consider your own view point from a different angle.... Rather than the cost of the new fish, think about the cost of all the fish you already have. I mean, if you keep small tanks with cherry barbs and zebra danios then that might not be all that significant. But if you have expensive fish, or just a lot of moderately priced fish, it's the same difference - you're jeopardizing the substantial investment you've made, not to mention the sweat equity. And for what? Because you didn't want to go through the trouble of setting up the quarantine tank? I think if you had $500 worth of stock swimming around in your show tank you would feel differently, no matter where the fish come from. I also think that if you had discus in your tank then you would quarantine all non discus fish you would add to that tank, as well.

 

[PNWaquarist]

That's what I'm saying though, he'll medicate and treat sick fish that he receives before he sells them to me in the other customers

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Don't most LFSs do this? Mine is pretty upfront about tanks that are being treated.

My point was that not all infected fish show symptoms at the LFS. I learned this the hard way.

It sounds like you have a really good LFS that gets its stock from a very responsible supplier. I wish I had access to that. I'd be willing to pay a lot more for it.


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