Trying to mix RO water/tap water

[An t-iasg]

Hi everyone,
I know I had some questions on this topic before. But I'm still confused (an early senior moment, maybe)! LOL!

My tap parameters are GH 9, KH 3, and pH 8 or 8.2. When I mix with RO water, parameters are GH 4, KH 2, and pH 7.4 or 7.6. Since the tap KH was low, I mixed it in a ratio of 6 cups RO water to 10 cups tap water, to make a gallon. I just measured 6 cups of RO water and filled the rest up with tap water. I also tried 8 cups tap/8 cups RO with no change in the parameters. The pH is still a bit high and I don't want to use pH down; that's the reason I'm trying RO water. If I use Bullseye, it says to use a teaspoon per gallon, and that's a lot. I would go through that stuff fast.

I did use an RO mix, but it only raised the GH by one degree, and didn't raise the KH at all. It did say on the label that it would add general hardness. I took it back.

So, in my case, does it make sense to use RO water? But the pH of my tap water is high. The KH is rather low, but the pH seems stable -- too high, but stable.

I am noticing some algae around the sponge filter airline and around the heater suction cups. It's not terrible, but I wonder what is causing it -- the pH down drops I was using, or something in the tap water. That's why I want to try RO water -- that and the high pH -- but can't seem to make it work so far. The GH of the tap/RO water is ok, but the pH still is a bit high, and the KH is a bit low.

 

[sweetsuvvyb]

You had bettas living happily in your tap water for over a year, correct?

I don't personally think a pH of 8 is "too high", especially if your fish is acclimated to it. If you are interested in lowering your pH, I'd reccomend adding some driftwood, which will lower it naturally over time. You can also increase the carbonates in the water by adding sea shells.

Algae isn't going to have a lot to do with your pH and hardness, more the nitrate, phosphate, and light levels in your tank.

Personally, I advocate getting away from micro-managing the situation. There is a very complex chemical equillibrium in a FW tank, and the smaller the tank, the harder it is to keep things stable (which is probably the most important for your fish, not some "ideal" reading on a pH scale).

 

[Terry]

I agree with sweetsuvvyb, you are working to hard on trying to get your ph to change. A saying i see alot on here is " if it not broken why change it " and i think that if your ph is fine for you now and things are working well in your tank why change it.
The other thing you could do is check with you lfs and see what there ph is, i bet there is not much differance from yours. If there fish are OK in there tanks, then they will be OK in yours.

 

[An t-iasg]

Thanks, Sweetsuvvyb and Terry! Yes, I do think I'm making it harder than necessary. That's what I was thinking as I mixed up the water 2 different times and did GH, KH, and pH about three different times...I also broke 2 test tubes!

The bettas were in my tap water for about a year. One betta was fine -- he did get sick once, then got better, then died about a month ago. Overall he was ok. The other betta has a history of fin and tail rot. That's when I got the 5.5 gallon tank with a heater and sponge filter. Both bettas lived in the tank for about 3 months. Now the remaining betta -- the one with fin/tail rot -- is in there alone. The heated tank helped his fin/tail rot some, but not totally. He still has outbreaks of it. So I was just wondering what else was causing the fin/tail rot, and I was thinking pH. I had been using pH down and getting the pH to 7.2. but I think it then rebounds to 7.4 - 7.6, and I know that's stressful. So I think I'll use the RO water and tap water mix, and just leave that pH where it mixes up -- at 7.4 - 7.6. If I change a gallon of water a week, that should be gradual enough to acclimate him. Since I won't add any more pH chemicals, the pH shouldn't fluctuate and that will be best.

Now my poor betta is sick again -- more fin-tail rot. He looks kind of bad, but he's eating and swimming well, and shows no signs of dropsy -- what my other betta died from. I'm taking him out of the tank and medicating again. I hope that helps him a little.

P.S. The pH at our neighborhood lfs is also 8 - 8.2. I was there when they tested it once. I don't know if they try to lower it. Probably not; that would be a lot of work for so many tanks. When I go in it seems like they are always cleaning the tanks. They are pretty good there.

 

[LondonGman]

Not an expert on this but using basic school chemistry and google searches, so anyone should feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

RO water is extremely pure water to the best of my understanding. While RO water can be used in saltwater tanks as the salt mix they add provides all the essential minerals and salts needed by the fishes, straight RO water lacks essential minerals and salts needed in freshwater tanks. You will need to be experienced in water chemistry to use RO water for freshwater tanks (i posted this elsewhere today)

Water hardness is loosely based on the amount of minerals in the water. Hard water causes the white fuzzy lime scale in kettles and dishwater. PH of water is based on the chemical makeup of water and is completely different from hardness.

To try to alter both the hardness and PH of your water will mean adding lots of chemicals to your tank that will only keep the shareholders of the chemicals company happy but also distress your fishes and may augment the problems your fishes have.

All fish tanks have a few causalities a year but if your fishes have survived for a year with your tap water then I am afraid I have to quote you an old axiom “if it's not broken, don't fix it".

This respond is directed to everyone here that has turned their aquarium into a chemistry experiment instead of enjoying the pleasure of the fish keeping hobby.

Kudos to An t-iasg for giving me the opportunity to get that off my chest LOL

 

[An t-iasg]

Thanks, LondonGman! That's what it felt like I was doing that one night, testing the various tap/RO mixes for GH/KH -- a chemistry experiment, with broken test tubes too.

I saw that it didn't really change the KH and pH that much, even with the RO mix added, so that's why I posted again. But my experiments and my posts helped me learn something, so thanks to all of you!

 

[sweetsuvvyb]

Water hardness is loosely based on the amount of minerals in the water. Hard water causes the white fuzzy lime scale in kettles and dishwater. PH of water is based on the chemical makeup of water and is completely different from hardness.

Just to make a quick correction...pH and water hardness can be related. pH is the amount of free H+ in the water. "Hard" water is described has having higher than average concentrations of Calcium and Magnesium ions (which are also positively charged), which can effect the amount of free H+...typically decreasing it, and making the water more basic. Of course it isn't really as simple as that....

Which is why I'm with London. Toss the test tubes.

 

[An t-iasg]

Thanks, Sweetsuvvyb,
The test tubes were already tossed -- broken, into the garbage can or sucked up with the vacuum!

The only one I have left is for the ammonia kit.

 

[AJ]

Hi. I have been dealing with this for quite awhile. My pH and kH were high. My pH is around 8 as well. And this is after mixing water (my real tap water is crap). However, I vacuum gravel weekly and when I add water back to the tank it's 1/2 gallon tap and 3 gallon RO water. I used to worry about it because my fish were dying but now they are living happily in it, it wasn't the water parameters at all that was killing them. I don't think it's pH that kills fish but change in pH. I have 4 guppies, 4 platies and 1 chinese marble algae eater going strong. Don't worry about your water parameters.

 

[An t-iasg]

Hi AJ,
Thanks for replying! Are you using an RO mix? I did try one, but it only raised the GH one degree, and it said not to use any more than directed. I wouldn't want to do that anyway because I would just go through it faster and have to buy more sooner! I decided that a ratio of 10 cups tap water to 6 cups RO water (to make a gallon) kept the pH at 7.4 - 7.6, and the GH and KH levels were reasonable too. I think my tap water is hard enough to supply all the minerals that are needed when it's mixed with the RO water. All I will add is my dechlorinator. I was adding a pH down additive, and the tap water was 7.2 with that, and sometimes rebounded to 7.6. So I'm hoping that with no chemicals, the pH will not fluctuate or rebound as much. I think I read somewhere that the addition of fish into a tank may cause the pH to fluctuate a bit, but hopefully not to the point of causing stress.

 

[AJ]

I have to mix RO and tap water. My tap water isn't suitable for human consumption, let alone fish life. The hardness is out of control. Like I said, I use 1/4 gallon RO and 3 gallon tap for every water change each week. My pH does not change, it is 8, but GH and kH decrease to the acceptable high limit. But the fish are living. I say leave it, no chemicals, except dechlorinator of course.
I am concerned your pH is fluctuating with your mix, that is not good. You may not want to mix at all if that is happening. Like I said high pH doesn't kill fish, CHANGE in pH kills fish. However, if you insist on pursuing mixing your water, add sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) 1 tsp per gallon to your water. This will increase your kH and prevent pH flux. My kH is high, not too high, but very high, no amount of mixing will change my pH, no amount of pH additive will change my pH, nothing changes my pH except EXTREMELY drastic measures. This remedy is very safe and very natural for those who hate chemicals. So you can become a mad scientist and go through all this work - or leave it and probably end up with the same results. As long as you acclimatize fish slowly, your water really shouldn't be a problem without mixing. I even had neons living in my high pH/kH water and they are considered "tetchy" on this forum.

 

[An t-iasg]

Hi AJ,
Sorry -- my previous post may have been confusing! I sure am confused by all this! LOL!

My tap water, alone, was what I was adding the pH drops to. I added drops until the pH was 7.2. That took 3 drops per gallon. I didn't want to add any more than that, because to lower "basic" water back to neutral, don't you have to add an acid? I didn't want to add too much, so I just stopped at whatever 3 drops gave me, and it was 7.2. When I measured pH again of the tank, before a change, it would sometimes be 7.4 or 7.6 again.

The mix that I was thinking about using (tap + RO) mixed up to pH 7.4 or 7.6 without the pH down drops. So I thought that if I didn't force the pH down with chemicals, it would not rebound back. I thought that if I changed 1 gallon a week in my 5.5 gallon, the change would be gradual enough. But I haven't tried it yet. My betta is in a critter keeper getting medicine right now -- one reason I wanted to try something to improve water quality -- he seems to get fin/tail rot fairly often.

I have read that adding baking soda increases KH, and KH is what prevents ph fluctuations. But isn't 1 teaspoon per gallon too much? Or did you mean 1 tsp. in my whole tank -- 5.5 gallon?

So, since I didn't try this yet in the tank, since the betta isn't in there right now, maybe I won't, and just stick with the tap water. But then I would have to acclimate him back to my tap pH. I guess I should do it the same way I would have acclimated him to the tap/RO mix -- by changing 1 gallon per week, and then in about 4 weeks he would be acclimated. Does this sound ok?

 

[AJ]

SORRY! 1 tsp per 10 gallons I believe is the mix. I should edit my posts more.
pH flux does not just happen because you used chemicals. Just keep a close eye on it. You really need the kH to keep it stable and then you'll be laughing I think.
So you can use the mix and make sure it's stable and it's okay. Also, I believe with the pH up/down drops, there are also pH stable drops that you are supposed to use after the up/down drops which basically functions the same way to increase kH. However, that's even more chemicals. I guess try something and see if it works!

 

[An t-iasg]

Thanks, AJ! I thought that was a whole lot of baking soda for a little tank! I've seen the pH Stable drops too. They are the same brand as the down drops I was using.

l have to think some more about what to do. I'm trying to help my poor little betta, who has fin/tail rot fairly often. I read that it's a water quality issue, so I'm trying out some things to see if they help. But, maybe pH isn't really the problem. I did have another betta, who was only sick once, and generally he was ok, and both bettas had the same water. This betta is a mystery! Thanks, everyone, you've given me a lot of good ideas to think about!