Water Changes ?

[jarrod0987]

Meh.... temporary at best if viable at all.. we've all been there and who really knows?? I trust in the chemistry but I wouldn't use it as a crutch walking down stairs.


Solution has been laid out... off gassed water to provide the "most stable" parameters possible. Clean water at +/- .5ppm on the ph scale is far better than not changing water in fear of swinging ph... these fish will be better off with the fresh water vs.....

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When I was new I lost many fish due to trying to change my ph up and down. I haven't lost one from ammonia yet when using prime. That chemistry is long established in the industry. Fish-less cycling is relatively new (last 8 years I'd say) . We have all had ammonia emergencies and had to use something like prime.

 

[coralbandit]

Brook nailed the proper resonses IMO!

I totally appreciate(maybe I am over exaggerating) the OP being "skeptical".
I think being "skeptical" is good and healthy.
I also think there comes a time,a point,"turn in the road" when one has to decide which way they go.
IMO the op is waiting way to long to take the proper course of action(again IMO).
I told you Sonata in the other thread that "others" would say less then 1ppm was not tolerable when cycling "FISH IN".
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/hind-sight-is-20-20-water-quality-338545.html I started on post 31 when you went from "fishless" to "fish in".
You stated water changes were not too much work.
Your fish are suffering IMO and I was 4X more liberal with you then PNW!
Get in gear and stop fiddling around with a FULL STOCKED UNCYCLED TANK!
For the fish you know?
Change water,less then 50% is worthless when nutrient reduction is the goal IMO and many others also.
And I have NEVER had to use prime to save my fish from ammonia!
I change water!(my signature on my old forum for real !)

 

[Sonata]

More Than One Way

Brook nailed the proper resonses IMO!

I totally appreciate(maybe I am over exaggerating) the OP being "skeptical".
I think being "skeptical" is good and healthy.
I also think there comes a time,a point,"turn in the road" when one has to decide which way they go.
IMO the op is waiting way to long to take the proper course of action(again IMO).
I told you Sonata in the other thread that "others" would say less then 1ppm was not tolerable when cycling "FISH IN".
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/hind-sight-is-20-20-water-quality-338545.html I started on post 31 when you went from "fishless" to "fish in".
You stated water changes were not too much work.
Your fish are suffering IMO and I was 4X more liberal with you then PNW!
Get in gear and stop fiddling around with a FULL STOCKED UNCYCLED TANK!
For the fish you know?
Change water,less then 50% is worthless when nutrient reduction is the goal IMO and many others also.
And I have NEVER had to use prime to save my fish from ammonia!
I change water!(my signature on my old forum for real !)

As they say, " The proof is in the pudding." Perhaps some of you are too young to have heard of that expression.You may choose to believe it or not. Your right. No done water changes for 2 days & my ammonia levels have gone from 1ppm to .5ppm
Perhaps my tank has cycled ?
Only future testing will tell.

 

[Fresh2o]

I've heard of that phrase. Never really made sense to me. Perhaps a more appropriate phrase would be "Seeing is believing".
In regards to the tank being cycled ...not quite there yet. Ammonia conversion to nitrite is just the start. The conversion from nitrite to nitrate is the next step. And it typically takes a longer period of time.
Here is an excerpt from I just learned about cycling but I already have fish. What now?!:
"How do I know when my tank is cycled? Your Ammonia levels will gradually give way to higher Nitrite levels. Nitrite will lower to zero and Nitrates will start to rise. When you consistently test zero for Ammonia & Nitrite and have increasing Nitrate, you have a cycled tank! (Woohoo!) Remember that each fish you add will add more Ammonia and that time should be allowed for the bacteria to catch up. Add slowly and responsibly and you will enjoy the hobby even more and your fish will thrive. Happy Fishkeeping!"


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[Brookster123]

So... I'm to young?? I do like pudding...

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[coralbandit]

As they say, " The proof is in the pudding." Perhaps some of you are too young to have heard of that expression.You may choose to believe it or not. Your right. No done water changes for 2 days & my ammonia levels have gone from 1ppm to .5ppm
Perhaps my tank has cycled ?
Only future testing will tell.

I am the old man on the "crew"(50!).....
I hate to say it again in another thread(and I wish your fish well and hope your tank cycles quickly for the fishes sake ) BUT,
Good luck with that!
What happened to changing water is not too much work(already,before cycling is even finished)?
Isn't jumping the gun and thinking you are all good what got you in this predicament to begin with???
66 post later on this thread and change water is still needing to be said....?

 

[PNWaquarist]

He tested his tap water and it is acidic. The more he does water changes it is only going to stay acidic Need a different solution.

Uh, no he doesn't need a different solution. If his equilibrated tap water is pH 6.0, then his tank water will be pH 6.0. That's a viable pH for an aquarium, though I wouldn't want it to go much lower than that.

When I was new I lost many fish due to trying to change my ph up and down. I haven't lost one from ammonia yet when using prime. That chemistry is long established in the industry. Fish-less cycling is relatively new (last 8 years I'd say) . We have all had ammonia emergencies and had to use something like prime.

I seriously hope that you're not advocating the use of Prime as a replacement for water changes when ammonia and nitrite are present. That would be irresponsibly bad advice, especially for a tank that is not even close to being cycled.

The OP can easily get rid of his/her pH swings problem by allowing carbon dioxide to re-dissolve into the tap water overnight. Doing that and using water changes to lower the ammonia and nitrite levels is the best course of action. I would also advocate using Prime in this case, as it definitely does help. But refraining from water changes is a big no-no.

 

[Reygan2]

Meh.... temporary at best if viable at all.. we've all been there and who really knows?? I trust in the chemistry but I wouldn't use it as a crutch walking down stairs.







Solution has been laid out... off gassed water to provide the "most stable" parameters possible. Clean water at +/- .5ppm on the ph scale is far better than not changing water in fear of swinging ph... these fish will be better off with the fresh water vs.....

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Very well put!!


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[Sonata]

Beat Ya !

I am the old man on the "crew"(50!).....
I hate to say it again in another thread(and I wish your fish well and hope your tank cycles quickly for the fishes sake ) BUT,
Good luck with that!
What happened to changing water is not too much work(already,before cycling is even finished)?
Isn't jumping the gun and thinking you are all good what got you in this predicament to begin with???
66 post later on this thread and change water is still needing to be said....?

Beat Ya ! 64 years young here !

 

[Reygan2]

Uh, no he doesn't need a different solution. If his equilibrated tap water is pH 6.0, then his tank water will be pH 6.0. That's a viable pH for an aquarium, though I wouldn't want it to go much lower than that.



I seriously hope that you're not advocating the use of Prime as a replacement for water changes when ammonia and nitrite are present. That would be irresponsibly bad advice, especially for a tank that is not even close to being cycled.

The OP can easily get rid of his/her pH swings problem by allowing carbon dioxide to re-dissolve into the tap water overnight. Doing that and using water changes to lower the ammonia and nitrite levels is the best course of action. I would also advocate using Prime in this case, as it definitely does help. But refraining from water changes is a big no-no.

+1!!!!


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[jarrod0987]

Uh, no he doesn't need a different solution. If his equilibrated tap water is pH 6.0, then his tank water will be pH 6.0. That's a viable pH for an aquarium, though I wouldn't want it to go much lower than that.



I seriously hope that you're not advocating the use of Prime as a replacement for water changes when ammonia and nitrite are present. That would be irresponsibly bad advice, especially for a tank that is not even close to being cycled.

The OP can easily get rid of his/her pH swings problem by allowing carbon dioxide to re-dissolve into the tap water overnight. Doing that and using water changes to lower the ammonia and nitrite levels is the best course of action. I would also advocate using Prime in this case, as it definitely does help. But refraining from water changes is a big no-no.

I am not suggesting you should use prime instead of water changes. I am suggesting that when you have ammonia or nitrite (even with water changes) you should protect your fish with prime. Now on to this 6.0 ph issue. It has already been discussed, and I agree, that having a ph down at 6 is close to total shutdown of nitrifying bacteria. He is trying to cycle his tank and we need these bacteria to wake up and get to work. An alkaline Ph is much better for this. He had been told by various people to boost ph which was a good idea but then do water changes which only lowers it again. There have been some PM's where he has provided me his ph over a period of time and before and after addition of Ph UP, PH down, and water changes. I have more data to work with then what is in this thread when I advise him. BTW...His tap water is 6.8 ph but in his aquarium is 6.0. If he were having a CO2 problem that was lowering his PH then keeping it in the aquarium would eventually off gas it and it would go higher not lower. So it is very strange that it goes lower still in the tank. All I can imagine is some kind of organics that are being consumed and producing a lot of acid. However....he has not reported cloudy water. He is inexperienced and confused and was adding a lot of things to raise and lower ph, sometimes at the same time, and he was loosing fish because if it. I have advised him to stop adding everything and stop changing the water for a few days just to see what the ph winds up at so that we can try to figure out what the heck is going on. I love a good scientific debate but I am more concerned about trying to stop the fish deaths at this point. Have to see clearly what is happening without to many changes at once. BTW...I know you folks are all trying to help but you may not realize the effect your having on a new member who doesn't know why he is being told so many different things at one time by so many different people. It can be stressful on some folks. Please remember to be kind to knew members. We all forget what it was like when we were the newb getting blasted with conflicting advice.

Oh....And on the subject of Refraining from water changes is a big no no. I only advised him to do that for 48 hours. I doubt there is a single one of you who never went 48 hours (even during a cycle) without doing one.

 

[Reygan2]

I have a ph of 7.6. During a cycle in one of my tanks the ph kept dropping to near 6, stalling my cycle. Water changes absolutely helped get the cycle started again. If his tap is 6.8, then it makes perfect sense that water changes would help, along with leaving the ph altering chemicals out of the tank. Simple.
No way could water changes alone lower the ph in his tank.


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[Brookster123]

Buffering with crushed coral is always an option

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[jarrod0987]

I have a ph of 7.6. During a cycle in one of my tanks the ph kept dropping to near 6, stalling my cycle. Water changes absolutely helped get the cycle started again. If his tap is 6.8, then it makes perfect sense that water changes would help, along with leaving the ph altering chemicals out of the tank. Simple.
No way could water changes alone lower the ph in his tank.


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Normally I would agree if you had 6 and your tap was 6.8 you should do some changes to bring it up. However.. He originally had added buffer and got it up to 7.8. Then doing a water change with 6.8 water bought it down to 6.8 which makes sense. Then somehow it was 6.0 a while later. I stand by my advice to stop all the adjusting and changing and see what we wind up with. Then we can do a water change and see what happens etc. BTW....He has advised me that since he stopped adding all the additives but continued to add prime once a day his fish have stopped dying and the ones that were not doing to well have started to recover. I rest my case.

Everyone has there opinion. I could list all the aquarium books, link all the videos, name all the companies I talk to, and list all the tanks I have kept, post pics of my corals. It would not change anyone's mind here. One thing I think we can all agree on is that too many cooks in the kitchen will not work. Changing water just for changing waters sake when you don't have a baseline to start with or at least a target is pointless. You cannot get where your going of you don't know where you want to go.

I am done with this thread because I don't believe it is helping the OP anymore.

 

[PNWaquarist]

I am not suggesting you should use prime instead of water changes. I am suggesting that when you have ammonia or nitrite (even with water changes) you should protect your fish with prime. Now on to this 6.0 ph issue. It has already been discussed, and I agree, that having a ph down at 6 is close to total shutdown of nitrifying bacteria. He is trying to cycle his tank and we need these bacteria to wake up and get to work. An alkaline Ph is much better for this. He had been told by various people to boost ph which was a good idea but then do water changes which only lowers it again. There have been some PM's where he has provided me his ph over a period of time and before and after addition of Ph UP, PH down, and water changes. I have more data to work with then what is in this thread when I advise him. BTW...His tap water is 6.8 ph but in his aquarium is 6.0. If he were having a CO2 problem that was lowering his PH then keeping it in the aquarium would eventually off gas it and it would go higher not lower. So it is very strange that it goes lower still in the tank. All I can imagine is some kind of organics that are being consumed and producing a lot of acid. However....he has not reported cloudy water. He is inexperienced and confused and was adding a lot of things to raise and lower ph, sometimes at the same time, and he was loosing fish because if it. I have advised him to stop adding everything and stop changing the water for a few days just to see what the ph winds up at so that we can try to figure out what the heck is going on. I love a good scientific debate but I am more concerned about trying to stop the fish deaths at this point. Have to see clearly what is happening without to many changes at once.

It's not accurate to say that "close to a total shutdown of nitrifying bacteria" occurs at pH 6.0. They begin to lose function below pH 6.0, but they don't abruptly die off at that pH. Anyway, the OP's tank doesn't contain an appreciable colon of nitrifying bacteria right now, so it's a moot point. Moreover, if the OP's tap water is pH 6.8, doing more water changes will (in theory) raise the pH closer to that range. Refraining from doing water changes will not help with the pH issue.

BTW...I know you folks are all trying to help but you may not realize the effect your having on a new member who doesn't know why he is being told so many different things at one time by so many different people. It can be stressful on some folks. Please remember to be kind to knew members. We all forget what it was like when we were the newb getting blasted with conflicting advice.

I'm sorry, I didn't get the memo that proclaimed you the designated point person for advice in this thread.

Oh....And on the subject of Refraining from water changes is a big no no. I only advised him to do that for 48 hours.

When there's 1 ppm ammonia in the tank during a fish-in cycle, telling somebody to not do a water change for 48 hours is bad advice. You need to stop complaining about other people "confusing" the OP by correcting you.

 

[Reygan2]

I agree it's exhausted.
I have to add though that water changes have only been recommended because he had toxic levels of ammonia. Nitrites are next. I hope he gets things worked out.


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[Reygan2]

It's not accurate to say that "close to a total shutdown of nitrifying bacteria" occurs at pH 6.0. They begin to lose function below pH 6.0, but they don't abruptly die off at that pH. Anyway, the OP's tank doesn't contain an appreciable colon of nitrifying bacteria right now, so it's a moot point. Moreover, if the OP's tap water is pH 6.8, doing more water changes will (in theory) raise the pH closer to that range. Refraining from doing water changes will not help with the pH issue.







I'm sorry, I didn't get the memo that proclaimed you the designated point person for advice in this thread.







When there's 1 ppm ammonia in the tank during a fish-in cycle, telling somebody to not do a water change for 48 hours is bad advice. You need to stop complaining about other people "confusing" the OP by correcting you.

++1. Responded at the same time.


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[Sonata]

Guys, Guys, Guys, Calm yourselves.
I have taken all your advice into consideration. I am not ignoring you. I'm just trying to go about it in the safest way for my fish. Water changes have been throwing my PH readings into a tailspin. I don't know why. They just are. My tap water tests @ 6.8. I have tried PH Up, gassed water, buffer & now I have some coral in the tank. My ammonia level has decreased from 1 to .5. I know that is not the greatest. I know my tank has not cycled, but it may give me time to get the PH under control. I expect that will happen soon. It is already going up. Then I expect to begin water changes. ( small ones @ first to see what happens ) If things are fine, I'll go to larger water changes.
All was going fine in my tank. The fish were eating & active. When my PH went from 6.2 to 8.8 in less than 24 hours, I lost 2. It was the only chemical change. Ammonia had remained @ .5. That was not a coincidence. The drastic PH flluxuation killed them. I have to get that under control & then begin water changes. If I see the ammonia going up, I'll have no choice but to begin the water changes & try to adjust the PH @ the same time.
We're all interested in aquariums. We all enjoy the same hobby. Let's stop this bickering. Love ya guys & I'm listening. All I ask is some understanding of the unique situation in which I find myself in. I am not arguing with you. Maybe I have said some things out of frustration & hurt. If I did, I'm sorry. Cut me some slack.

 

[Sonata]

Doing It

Buffering with crushed coral is always an option

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I am doing that now. Thanks.

 

[Sonata]

Oh Come On

++1. Responded at the same time.


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Cool it. Were all adults here, aren't we ?