Bio Balls versus Live Rock

[TheTodd]

Am still fairly new to this forum, but have many years of salt and fresh water experience. I recently got an acrylic aquarium with a built in, three chamber filtration system in the back. The middle has bio balls, but there is a sponge that the water passes through before entering that chamber. That gets cleaned regularly. I have been reading up on filtration and keep hearing how bio balls are nitrate factories. I get the basic idea in some cases, but have also seen people suggest putting rock in place of the balls. Maybe I am missing something, but why would that be any different than the bio balls as far as producing nitrates? I had a larger saltwater tank for years with this same basic system and never had fluctuations in my nitrate/nitrite levels. Fish thrived, everything seemed fine.

 

[JustinKBreen]

Sounds like you have a similar set up to my clear for life "uniaquarium"

I have rinsed the bio balls about a quarter or so each water change in old tank water and have had no problem.

 

[Terrance]

Same results whether you use LR or bioballs. LR is supposedly more effective though. I believe the pores of the rocks do get clogged over time and makes it difficult for anaerobic bacteria to survive. I think live rocks should be rinsed with tank water or RO water.

 

[MacDracor]

Live Rock has anoxic areas in the centers where water passes through very slowly. In these areas, anaerobic nitrification can occur, in which nitrates are converted back into gaseous nitrogen and diffused back into the air.
One bit of clarification here. Bio-Balls are "nitrate factories" because they work. They provide highly aerobic surface area for bacteria to colonize. But you'll never get more nitrates than you're putting other forms of nitrogen (fish food, fish poop) in. In short, you gotta clean things from time to time and do water changes.
LR simply has other benefits beyond surface area.

 

[boardsurfer]

Fish only tank or a future reef tank? For me, if it's fish-only, bio-balls are fine and sometimes get too much of a bad rap. But if you're tank is going to be a reef tank, I would use LR. I think that LR is truly the best way to go.

 

[TheTodd]

It will be a FOWLR from start to finish. I currently have the bio balls in back and about 60 lbs of black lava rock in the tank. Also have a few of the white corrals (that I had from years ago and are apparently not legal to sell anymore?) Kind of a different look but I have always liked it. Had the same kind of setup before, but that was before all the info was available on the Internet. I figured it was okay before, but wanted to be sure this would not have any negative impact.

I've got a small acrylic hex tank that has cichlids now, but am considering converting to a reef. Probably not anytime soon though.

 

[MacDracor]

For a Fish Only tank, Live Rock is less essential. It's worth pointing out, however, that your lava rock will become Live Rock after a while in the tank.

 

[TheTodd]

Exactly. That is why I have always liked this setup. The balls in the back do their thing, the lava rock eventually becomes live and does its thing. To me, lava is a fraction of the cost of typical live rock and is still light and porous. I like the look of both, just don't see paying so much more for typical live rock. I've probably spent under five bucks for over 65 lbs of black lava rock and that would have been close to $400 at the LFS. I can almost stock my tank with the savings.

 

[Terrance]

According to my research so far, seeding live rocks to base rocks or other types of rocks won't give as much "life" into the other rocks as buying ALL live rocks. The regular rocks will get some of the "life", but not to the same degree as the original "live" rocks.

 

[TheTodd]

I've heard that there is die off from buying live rock too. All I know is a lot of people seed base rock and it ends up providing good filtration. Probably depends on an individuals needs and may mot work as well for reefs. This is my second FOWLR tank with this kind of setup and for me, it has always worked fine. Keeps everything at zeros with occasional water changes.

I started this just to see if there was something horribly wrong with my setup. It worked in the past, but there was not as much info out there several years ago. I wanted to be sure that i was not way off in the past. I am excited to have found this site and it seems that there is a good knowledge base here.

 

[Terrance]

Yeah FOWLR systems doen't need the "live" part very much. The rocks just offer biological filtration, just like an HOB filter or canister.

The "live" part is better preserved in tanks with refugiums and skimmer since those two things help the "live" part stay alive. But the "live" part slowly dies in a FOWLR system.

 

[crister13]

How does the live part die in a FOWLR systems? Having corals or not doesn't do anything to bacteria. If the bacteria has ammonia, it's going to live. He was talking about die off during transportation I think. Once it's in the tank if it had food it's going to reproduce.

 

[Terrance]

Most people try to prolong the water change in SW systems (we all know why, right?). FOWLR systems end up getting too much dissolved organic waste that skimmers take out. This suffucates live rocks and kills many of the "live" stuff that lives on the rock. The refugium also exports a lot stuff to protect the life of the rock in the long-run. All aquatic life does need clean water.

FW systems have far superior water quality than SW systems since the water changes are cheaper.

edit: not all life on the rock die, but a big majority of it will die over time. The rock will still have plenty of aerobic and anaerobic bacteria though.

 

[MacDracor]

Die off is very individualized. Some tanks will lose everything but the bacteria, while others will find more and more life developing over time. I have one rock in particular that has exploded with variety in the last couple of months. Various algaes, coralline, sponges, tiny feather dusters, etc.
But yeah, Terrance is right that in most cases, biodiversity in SW tanks decreases over time.

 

[Schism]

edit: not all life on the rock die, but a big majority of it will die over time. The rock will still have plenty of aerobic and anaerobic bacteria though.

The bacteria is what makes live rock "live" and no they do not die off in a FOWLR system compared to a reef. There is no other purpose to live rock besides biological filtration and hiding spots for fish. Any of the other life you see on live rock is just a hitchhiker organism and has nothing to do with making the rock "live"

 

[MacDracor]

The bacteria is what makes live rock "live" and no they do not die off in a FOWLR system compared to a reef. There is no other purpose to live rock besides biological filtration and hiding spots for fish. Any of the other life you see on live rock is just a hitchhiker organism and has nothing to do with making the rock "live"

Hmm... though technically correct that the primary purpose of LR is filtration, I have to disagree with the assertation that there is no other function, or that the biodiversity of various organisms has nothing to do with making it "live" rock.
Quality live rock will contain many useful organisms besides the bacteria. Copepods, amphipods, micro brittle stars, tiny feather duster worms, various algae species including coralline algae, sponges, bristleworms, and more. If the bacteria was literally the only thing we wanted, we wouldn't bother buying live rock at all.
Biodiversity in a reef tank helps to create a more stable system. Each organism fills a very specific ecological niche, and having as many of those filled as possible means more effective nutrient recycling and waste disposal.
Yes, Live Rock is mostly filtration and structure, but that is not *all* that it is. It is a piece of the sea that we bring into our little glass boxes to make it more real for the animals we house there.
Is Live Rock "essential" to a Fish Only system? No. But the death of all other organisms in/on the rock is a bad thing, and should be avoided if possible. Live Rock is more than simply surface area. It's a miniature zoo where every exhibit serves a useful function.

 

[Schism]

Hmm... though technically correct that the primary purpose of LR is filtration, I have to disagree with the assertation that there is no other function, or that the biodiversity of various organisms has nothing to do with making it "live" rock.
Quality live rock will contain many useful organisms besides the bacteria. Copepods, amphipods, micro brittle stars, tiny feather duster worms, various algae species including coralline algae, sponges, bristleworms, and more. If the bacteria was literally the only thing we wanted, we wouldn't bother buying live rock at all.
Biodiversity in a reef tank helps to create a more stable system. Each organism fills a very specific ecological niche, and having as many of those filled as possible means more effective nutrient recycling and waste disposal.
Yes, Live Rock is mostly filtration and structure, but that is not *all* that it is. It is a piece of the sea that we bring into our little glass boxes to make it more real for the animals we house there.
Is Live Rock "essential" to a Fish Only system? No. But the death of all other organisms in/on the rock is a bad thing, and should be avoided if possible. Live Rock is more than simply surface area. It's a miniature zoo where every exhibit serves a useful function.

I agree with most of that however you dont need to buy "live rock" to establish biological filtration. There are ways to make dead rock live etc.

Also the entire issue of built up detritus in a fowlr system can completely be blamed on poor maintenance habits. The issue should never arise in the first place. Proper maintenance beats any detritus problem...

 

[Bkmrsteel]

Where did you get your black lava rock? I have base rock, rubble, live sand and live rock, but want to add rock to fill in a few spots. Can't afford any more live rock, and dont need any more anyway.

 

[TheTodd]

I live out in the Palm Springs area. We have a few places out here that have materials for landscaping (boulders, flagstone, etc). They typically sell by the ton, but will sell smaller pieces that I am sure they see as useless (they call it rubble). I've basically gone back to their lava rock piles that are big boulders and rummaged around for smaller pieces. Ive seen it sold in fish stores, but they jack the price way up. Obviously it looks different than most of the stuff they sell live, but it is porous with lots of surface area. I probably filled my 75 gallon tank for less than what it would have cost for twoi pounds of live rock. I happen to like the "plainness" of it, but I'm guessing a lot of people would prefer the usual look. I like the focus to be on my fish, not so much the rock. For reefs, I see it more as a of both.

 

[Terrance]

The bacteria is what makes live rock "live" and no they do not die off in a FOWLR system compared to a reef. There is no other purpose to live rock besides biological filtration and hiding spots for fish. Any of the other life you see on live rock is just a hitchhiker organism and has nothing to do with making the rock "live"

Its true that LR is only used for biological filtration and fish environment.
By your meaning of "live", we could just use all base rock and cycle it with ammonia. Then the base rock would become live since it has aerobic and anaerobic bacteria. This would also make HOB, canister, and other media "live" with aerobic bacteria. "Live" would be available in freshwater systems as well since we can just put porous rocks into those system and cycle it with ammonia.

"Live" is when you bring all the other critters and organisms that come from the ocean or sea.

I think we are all on the same page with the concept, but we just have different views of the word "live" lol.