converting fresh to brackish and ultimately marine.

[Nimo]

I am starting a new thread because I have a new project. As some of you know I just got green spotted puffers that are going to have to be converted. I currently have 3 spotted puffers in a 20 gallon long, now don't get up set. I ordered pea puffers and spent a lot of time setting up this tank for the dwarfs. I found after I got them that they were not dwarfs thanks to you guys on here. They are still less than an inch for now. Tomorrow they will be moved to a 30 gallon, I have to do allot of moving fish around to empty the 30 for them. I know they need larger and I will get a large set up for them asap just can't run out and buy it right away.
Any way I am going to slowly convert the 30 to brackish and eventually full marine as that is what the puffers need. So when I get a bigger set up I can cycle it for salt water and them get these guys in a better home.
Any thoughts or ideas that might make this easier for me and my fish I would love to hear.

Edit forgot to mention that the 30 gallon they are being moved to is a fully cycled fresh water tank. It has a heater. A 50 gallon penguin bio wheel and a tetra 30 gallon filter.

 

[Chiroptera]

I am starting a new thread because I have a new project. As some of you know I just got green spotted puffers that are going to have to be converted. I currently have 3 spotted puffers in a 20 gallon long, now don't get up set. I ordered pea puffers and spent a lot of time setting up this tank for the dwarfs. I found after I got them that they were not dwarfs thanks to you guys on here. They are still less than an inch for now. Tomorrow they will be moved to a 30 gallon, I have to do allot of moving fish around to empty the 30 for them. I know they need larger and I will get a large set up for them asap just can't run out and buy it right away.
Any way I am going to slowly convert the 30 to brackish and eventually full marine as that is what the puffers need. So when I get a bigger set up I can cycle it for salt water and them get these guys in a better home.
Any thoughts or ideas that might make this easier for me and my fish I would love to hear.

Edit forgot to mention that the 30 gallon they are being moved to is a fully cycled fresh water tank. It has a heater. A 50 gallon penguin bio wheel and a tetra 30 gallon filter.

This is the same concern a lot of Pangasius Catfish owners have. Make sure you know what age they would naturally start moving towards the brackish and marine waters, and then VERY slowly start adding salt. It may take, say, a year to go from fresh to brackish around the age the puffer is ready, depending on if you want to be careful or not.

Some people do it in a month.

I'd say just read, read, read. Know how your fish would act in the wild most of all, and that will be a good guideline to start. Then, pick how long you want to take to change them over each step. I'd say the longer, the better, but make sure you know how to handle the salt. How much you need at each step, how to handle it, how to replace it in case of water changes, etc.

 

[smomus]

Nimo, I am doing similar. My, not quite inch long, green spot is currently in a fw 20g. I ordered my refractometer earlier today. From what I read the sg needs to be raised around .02 a week or you kill your bb. I'm also going to have some java fern and moss in it so they well need to adjust as well. In a few months I also am going to get something bigger then the 20. Hopefully we can get through this process together! I know Terrance is very knowledgeable as far as puffers are concerned and alyxx has gone through the process too. We have lots of back up if we should need it!

 

[Terrance]

Any thoughts or ideas that might make this easier for me and my fish I would love to hear.

If you got from 20g to 30g to 60-70g, then to even a bigger tank... then it would create a lot of unnecessary work and expense. Upgrading to very large tanks is not easy at all. For the past year, I've read a great number of people saying they would upgrade, but very few times does it happen due premature death, life just getting in the way, or whatever it may be. Far too many times, I read about stunted fish that should have grown past 4-5" in two years. I'm not saying you're definitely one of these people, but I'm just stating what I've tracked so far and the best/easiest way for you to get those fish into their permanent home.

I still recommend going from 20g to ~100g. You can go from fresh water to full marine water in ~3 months. Increase salinity level by .002 each week. You can slow down if you want, but it will cause more expense for salt during weekly water changes if you stay in the moderate-high end brackish water. If you go faster than .002 per week, then you risk kill all your beneficial bacteria. Either keep them in low-brackish water or marine water to keep the operating cost down. Low brackish water shouldn't cost too much to do the weekly water changes and full marine water can go longer without water changes since skimmers and refugiums (for growing algae) can be used. If you have both of skimmer and refugium and 30g of WATER volume per GSP, then you end up doing ~30% water changes PER MONTH (not the usual per week).

Its cheapest and easiest to do the full conversion in the 20g because of the smaller water volume and your GSPs are still small. The bigger they get, then the bigger tank you need to do the conversion and the more salt you use for the water changes.

You can still do it your way if you wish. If you're planning to keep them in low-end brackish water in the 30g, then the first thing I recommend is getting a large 30-50g trashbin (ie Brute) for premixing water. You will need a powerhead, heater, and refractometer (easier to use than hydrometer). In this hobby, long-term success rate depends on how you make things easy or hard.

 

[smomus]

Terrance can gsp live fully in low brackish? My understanding they live longer in full marine?

 

[Terrance]

They won't thrive in low-end brackish water. They should live in those water conditions until the start of the saltwater conversion. Many reports indicates GSP becoming more vibrant after the saltwater. Yes they live much longer in high-end brackish or marine water than low-end brackish.

 

[smomus]

Alyxx said her gsp really started growing once she started converting. I can't wait! Hopefully my refractometer will be here soon!

 

[Nimo]

If you got from 20g to 30g to 60-70g, then to even a bigger tank... then it would create a lot of unnecessary work and expense. Upgrading to very large tanks is not easy at all. For the past year, I've read a great number of people saying they would upgrade, but very few times does it happen due premature death, life just getting in the way, or whatever it may be. Far too many times, I read about stunted fish that should have grown past 4-5" in two years. I'm not saying you're definitely one of these people, but I'm just stating what I've tracked so far and the best/easiest way for you to get those fish into their permanent home.

I still recommend going from 20g to ~100g. You can go from fresh water to full marine water in ~3 months. Increase salinity level by .002 each week. You can slow down if you want, but it will cause more expense for salt during weekly water changes if you stay in the moderate-high end brackish water. If you go faster than .002 per week, then you risk kill all your beneficial bacteria. Either keep them in low-brackish water or marine water to keep the operating cost down. Low brackish water shouldn't cost too much to do the weekly water changes and full marine water can go longer without water changes since skimmers and refugiums (for growing algae) can be used. If you have both of skimmer and refugium and 30g of WATER volume per GSP, then you end up doing ~30% water changes PER MONTH (not the usual per week).

Its cheapest and easiest to do the full conversion in the 20g because of the smaller water volume and your GSPs are still small. The bigger they get, then the bigger tank you need to do the conversion and the more salt you use for the water changes.

You can still do it your way if you wish. If you're planning to keep them in low-end brackish water in the 30g, then the first thing I recommend is getting a large 30-50g trashbin (ie Brute) for premixing water. You will need a powerhead, heater, and refractometer (easier to use than hydrometer). In this hobby, long-term success rate depends on how you make things easy or hard.

Thank you for all the information. I can pick up a trash can tomorrow to mix water in. I will look and see if the lfs has refractometer, I bought a hydrometer today. So I need to get a power head.
Will the 2 hob filter I have on there now be ok with out the refugium and skimmer for a little bit while I slowly change these little guys over?
I am probly going to go ahead and move them to the 30 for conversion. once the puffers are moved to a larger tank I will have the 30 to do something different with salt water. Maybe set up some corals or something.

 

[Terrance]

If you already have the hydrometer, then just use it. You have to be more careful when using it, but its still works.

Live rocks, HOBs, or canisters will help decrease the frequency of water change. As long as you don't have a skimmer + refugium, then the 50% weekly water changes will always be recommended.

 

[Nimo]

If you already have the hydrometer, then just use it. You have to be more careful when using it, but its still works.

Live rocks, HOBs, or canisters will help decrease the frequency of water change. As long as you don't have a skimmer + refugium, then the 50% weekly water changes will always be recommended.

I am willing to do the water changes that's not a problem. And not too expensive for the 30 gallon. I am gonna up grade the tetra filter on the tank to a bio wheel. The tetra filter is older so I am going to replace it with a new bio wheel and I will put the media from the tetra filter in the new bio wheel so I don't loose the bacteria.
How long before I can put live rock in the tank? At what salinity? There is a salt water fish door right down the road from me with decent prices on live rock and corals that I would like to get eventually I just don't know when I could add it.

 

[Nimo]

The guy at the salt water store said that starting the change over that I could mix like 5-10 gallons of light brackish water and do like a 1/2-1 gallon water change every day or every other day taking out the fresh water and adding the brackish to slowly start bringing the salinity up. Then after the tank is reading light brackish increase the mixture to heavy brackish and continue the same until the tank reads heavy brackish and then the same again on the marine mix until I get the marine reading. Would this method be ok to use?
I am a house wife/stay home mom so I have plenty of time for the work I am not concerned about that. I take pride in my fish tanks so the work involved gives me something to do and I enjoy the time spent with my little guys, I am always doing something with fish tanks. At the moment I have 8 and I am going to be setting up number 9 with in the next couple days lol
Edit: another question I forgot to ask is what test should I be using to test my water. I have the API drops for ammonia and nitrate that test both salt and fresh when do I start using the salt cards that came with those tests, I am not sure about the nitrite bottle I have I think it is just a fresh water test so I will buy a new bottle for that asap.

 

[FishontheRock]

I really know nothing about this but its a fascinating thread. I will subscribe and follow your journey forward into marine puffer world!

 

[Nimo]

I really know nothing about this but its a fascinating thread. I will subscribe and follow your journey forward into marine puffer world!

I have done allot of research sense friday, I have read till my eyes crossed and couldn't focus on the letters any more..
I got the wrong puffers but it is not their fault and they are so cute and responsive to me already I can't help but do all I can for them. Thanks for your support.

 

[Nimo]

This is the tank they are currently in.



This is the tank that they are going to be moved to. I have to re home the fish in this one and I am going to change the substrate to sand and remodel their new home before I move them.


I am not getting rid of these fish they are going to be moved the 20 long that the puffers currently live along with another 20 long that I will be setting up with in the next couple days.

 

[Terrance]

If you already have the hydrometer, then just use it. You have to be more careful when using it, but its still works.

Live rocks, HOBs, or canisters will help decrease the frequency of water change. As long as you don't have a skimmer + refugium, then the 50% weekly water changes will always be recommended.

I'm sorry, but I left out a key word. Live rocks, HOBs, or canisters will NOT help decrease the frequency of water changes. Some of you probably already know that.

How long before I can put live rock in the tank?

You can add live rocks any time after you cycle it. You have to cycle any live rocks you buy, even if the seller says its "cured" (basically meaning its been cycled). Try your best to keep all your live rocks submerged and water at tank temperature. You will prevent less die-offs of critters and organisms that live on the rock. These critters and organisms will be a good addition to the tank once you move out the GSPs and introduce corals (if you go in that route). These critters and organisms die over the course of several years. I'm pretty sure GSPs will try to eat a few of them as well. The refugium (for growing macroalgae and other critters and organisms) help sustain the overall life of the rocks.

If you wanted to entirely get rid of HOB filter, then you need approximately 1-1.5 pounds of live rocks per gallon.

Don't buy all 100% live rocks. Many people decide to buy 10% live rocks and 90% base rocks. The base rocks are cheaper. If you just want the rock to filter the water (and don't really care about the critters and organisms that live on the rocks), then you could just buy 100% base rocks and cycle them.

The guy at the salt water store said that starting the change over that I could mix like 5-10 gallons of light brackish water and do like a 1/2-1 gallon water change every day or every other day taking out the fresh water and adding the brackish to slowly start bringing the salinity up. Then after the tank is reading light brackish increase the mixture to heavy brackish and continue the same until the tank reads heavy brackish and then the same again on the marine mix until I get the marine reading. Would this method be ok to use?
I have the API drops for ammonia and nitrate that test both salt and fresh when do I start using the salt cards that came with those tests, I am not sure about the nitrite bottle I have I think it is just a fresh water test so I will buy a new bottle for that asap.

The guy at the LFS is referring to drip acclimation. If you do this to the whole tank, then you'd end up killing all your beneficial bacteria. Then you will really have to do many water changes to keep your GSPs alive. If you just raise the salinity level by no more than .002 per week, then you'd preserve the bacteria.

There are a few ways to get to marine water properly. The above is not economical, but it does work. I would just cycle rocks in another container (such as the large trash bin with powerhead, heater). Then take out the GSP and drip acclimate them until they get to saltwater. During the drip acclimation, I would put in all the cycled rocks in the tank and get everything setup for them.

Or if I didn't have enough money for rocks, then I'd just slowly acclimate by the .002 per week rule.

The API test kit is the same for SW and FW, but different card. You can look up the saltwater card on google as needed.

 

[Nimo]

I'm sorry, but I left out a key word. Live rocks, HOBs, or canisters will NOT help decrease the frequency of water changes. Some of you probably already know that.

You can add live rocks any time after you cycle it. You have to cycle any live rocks you buy, even if the seller says its "cured" (basically meaning its been cycled). Try your best to keep all your live rocks submerged and water at tank temperature. You will prevent less die-offs of critters and organisms that live on the rock. These critters and organisms will be a good addition to the tank once you move out the GSPs and introduce corals (if you go in that route). These critters and organisms die over the course of several years. I'm pretty sure GSPs will try to eat a few of them as well. The refugium (for growing macroalgae and other critters and organisms) help sustain the overall life of the rocks.

If you wanted to entirely get rid of HOB filter, then you need approximately 1-1.5 pounds of live rocks per gallon.

Don't buy all 100% live rocks. Many people decide to buy 10% live rocks and 90% base rocks. The base rocks are cheaper. If you just want the rock to filter the water (and don't really care about the critters and organisms that live on the rocks), then you could just buy 100% base rocks and cycle them.

The guy at the LFS is referring to drip acclimation. If you do this to the whole tank, then you'd end up killing all your beneficial bacteria. Then you will really have to do many water changes to keep your GSPs alive. If you just raise the salinity level by no more than .002 per week, then you'd preserve the bacteria.

There are a few ways to get to marine water properly. The above is not economical, but it does work. I would just cycle rocks in another container (such as the large trash bin with powerhead, heater). Then take out the GSP and drip acclimate them until they get to saltwater. During the drip acclimation, I would put in all the cycled rocks in the tank and get everything setup for them.

Or if I didn't have enough money for rocks, then I'd just slowly acclimate by the .002 per week rule.

The API test kit is the same for SW and FW, but different card. You can look up the saltwater card on google as needed.

Ok so the test kit is covered and I will do the .002 pr week to bring them up to salt water.
Can I put the base rock from lfs in there now or do I need to wait till the tank gets to a certain salinity?
Also after thinking it over I am going to just use the 20 long that they are already in. I will just have to take the plants out and I would like to change the substrate to sand.
As far as the hob filters for now I am not concerned about doing water changes,I will do them daily if I have to. When I get them the larger tank I will get all the bells, whistles and goodies that it needs. That way when they move to the big tank it will be all fixed up for them.
And by slowly bringing them to marine I won't have to cycle the tank they are in.
I have a lot of work to do over the next few days just to get started but it will be worth it in the end.
Edit: sorry read back over your post again. so if I read correctly the tank the puffers are in is cycled so I could add live rock to it now if I wanted?

 

[Nimo]

Ok now I have another problem. Looking at the hydrometer I bought there is no reading for the .002 it starts at 1.000 does the refractometer read that low so I can tell what I am doing?

 

[Terrance]

Sometimes there are still die-offs from base rocks. Test it by putting it in freshwater with a powerhead. Let it run and check for ammonia or nitrIte after 24-48hrs. If no ammonia or nitrIte, then you could just put it in your freshwater tank. They will leach some salt into your water.

I think in another one of your thread, you said the 20g is fully cycled. Live rocks are only meant to be put in saltwater. If you just put live rocks into freshwater, then everything will die and you will get ammonia spike.

I didn't mean to confuse you, but lets clarify. If you move all the way to saltwater, then you could use the HOB or live rocks. If not saltwater, then use the HOB only.

You might want to return the hydrometer and get something else. Everyone is going digital nowadays because there are less human error involved.

 

[Nimo]

Sometimes there are still die-offs from base rocks. Test it by putting it in freshwater with a powerhead. Let it run and check for ammonia or nitrIte after 24-48hrs. If no ammonia or nitrIte, then you could just put it in your freshwater tank. They will leach some salt into your water.

I think in another one of your thread, you said the 20g is fully cycled. Live rocks are only meant to be put in saltwater. If you just put live rocks into freshwater, then everything will die and you will get ammonia spike.

I didn't mean to confuse you, but lets clarify. If you move all the way to saltwater, then you could use the HOB or live rocks. If not saltwater, then use the HOB only.

You might want to return the hydrometer and get something else. Everyone is going digital nowadays because there are less human error involved.

Thank you for the clarification on the rock. I will wait till I get fully converted before I try to do any live rock or base rock I will just leave the ones I have in there for now.
As far as the meter not sure I can swing a digital at the moment so I might have to figure some thing else out.

 

[smomus]

Nimo I had the same problem with a hydrometer. I asked on a few forums in regards which refractometer to purchase. They can range anywhere from $25 to a couple hundred.
There is a group buy going on for bulk reef supply for a few more days here http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f60/bulk-reef-supply-group-buy-214873.html . Joining a group buy will get you a few dollars discount. I don't think its to late to join.
The refractometer that I purchased is this one. http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/refractometer-for-reading-salinity-w-free-calibration-fluid.html . Hopefully it will go below 1. At the very least, I figure it can be calibrated to go below.