New puffer with swollen and cloudy eye?

[flipz]

Hi everyone. Just last week I added a spotted green puffer to my tank, the only other fish in there was a Columbian Catfish (black-fin shark). I originally had 2 however after a year, 1 died, and she was replaced with this puffer. Well all seemed fine, the 2 were getting along good. I looked in the tank today and out of no where, 1 of the puffer's eyes is swollen and it looks cloudy. He is active as ever, and seems to be ok, however I can obviously see that something is wrong. I know that the Columbian has toxin barbs on her fins, and her mouth, so naturally I assumed the puffer got stung some how. Maybe picking on her too much. But then I thought maybe it could be something else, and someone here could help. Thanks in advance for any advice!!

-brent

PS- the levels and everything are all normal if that makes any difference.

[astroguy]

I assume the tank is a brackish water tank?

[flipz]

Yes, sorry. I thought I mentioned that but I guess not.

From what I have been reading it seems that it could be popeye? I don't know anything about that though.

[astroguy]

popeye and cloudy eye suggest bad water quality. Could you give us the params? What size is the tank, how much ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, salt concentration, stocking population, and maintenance schedule?

[flipz]

Well I have very good water quality. I am kind of an aquarium newb even though I have been doing this for a while, so excuse my lemans terms.

20 gallon tank
A power(something) filter made for up to 30g tank (sorry, I'm not at home and don't remember exactly what it's called. It hangs on the back though and has a waterfall into the tank.)
I also have a pump hooked up to another filter. It's black and is triangle, submerged underwater. I can't remember the term but it's biological. *Sigh* Sorry I'm so bad with the terms.
I don't know exacts on the ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, because I'm not home, however the test kit shows everything is within perfectly normal range.
Salt is at approx 1.012
I do a water change about every 2 weeks.

Hopefully that helps some. Thanks astroguy.

-brent

[astroguy]

The important, for me, is to know what " test kit shows everything is within perfectly normal range." means. Do you get an ammonia and nitrite reading? And how much are the nitrates?

Water change could (and should) be done every week at least. In the mean time, make a 25% water change tonight, and do it every other day for a week and see how it goes with the puffer's eye. Post tonight with the readings as well.

[astroguy]

oh and don't forget to add the fish population! (I know I am annoying... )

[flipz]

Will try the water changes as soon as I get home. I do realize that even though the water is perfectly clear it could be of bad quality.

Fish population is just the 1 puffer and 1 columbian catfish.

I do get an ammonia and nitrite reading. I'll run the tests again tonight and post the results, sorry I don't know off the top of my head. The kit I have tests for 7 different things though, and other than the water being a little hard (the columbian and puffer both like it that way anyways from what I've read) all was fine.

[astroguy]

Originally Posted by flipz

Fish population is just the 1 puffer and 1 columbian catfish.

So no overcrowding! However, the tank is small for the catfish...

Originally Posted by flipz

I do get an ammonia and nitrite reading.

I understand that you have then >0ppm, which is *not* good. A cycled tank needs to have 0ppm. Are you familiar with the nitrogen cycle? If not, look at the article on that subject on this website and/or on faq.thekrib.com.

Originally Posted by flipz

I'll run the tests again tonight and post the results, sorry I don't know off the top of my head. The kit I have tests for 7 different things though, and other than the water being a little hard (the columbian and puffer both like it that way anyways from what I've read) all was fine.

Is the kit a strip kit or do you have liquid test kits? The former are crap, the latter good.

[flipz]

Sorry, what I meant by I get a reading was just that my kit does do a reading for that. But if I remember correctly, nothign showed for ammonia and nitrite.

I do understand that they are crap, however yes it is a strip kit. Under my budget it's what I can afford. But the LFS does free water testing with their professional kit. I take my water up there every couple of months. Haven't done it lately, I'll do that ASAP too.

And the columbian will get a much bigger tank soon, just waiting until I move.

[astroguy]

try buy a master kit. I guess you need the marine master kit (several tests for ~15-20 dollars)

[flipz]

Well I ran to the LFS, they were all out of marine master test kits, and I wasn't sure if freshwater would work. So I purchased a kit of ammonia (NH3 and 4) and a kit for nitrate. I figured the strips I had were good enough to test for pH. I hope so at least. Considering they use litmus strips to test for pH and it's good enough to be used for medical science. Once I get home I'll test and post results!

-brent

[flipz]

And the test results are in:

NO2 (Nitrite): 0
NH3 & NH4 (Ammonia): 0
pH: 7.5
Salt: 1.010 (bumped up to 1.015 after water change which is their usual)

All of which seems good, then comes the problem

NO3 (Nitrate): 80ppm!! Now this number was taken from the strip test, because I didn't have one of the good types for nitrate (I thought the Nitrite kit did both but I was wrong). Why would nitrite be so low but nitrate be so high?

Well I did a water change as you suggested, and will continue to do so every other day for a week. The puffer actually already looked a little better than he did this morning. The eye isn't so noticable anymore. What can I do to get my nitrate down? Anything other than water changes? Which one is more toxic, nitrate or nitrite, I can't remember?

I think nitrate goes high when you feed them too much, right? Too much food = too much poop? Because I only feed them every other day. And I even made a post a couple days ago asking how much I should be feeding them, and was told even once a day is fine. But I only feed every other day, and only as much as they can eat in about 1-1.5 mins. What could I be doing wrong? Thanks so much astroguy (and anyone else who may respond)!

-brent

[astroguy]

To decrease the amount of nitrates, do frequent water changes. I recommend every week. Since you will do several every other day (make two consecutive day changes since nitrates are so high), you will keep them sufficiently low. Food transforms to ammonia then nitrite and finally to nitrate. The total amount of nitrogen is very important for the quality of water. Since your tank is cycled, keep nitrates below 20ppm. Every day feeding is good. Make more frequent water changes, that's the important to keep the nitrates low.

[flipz]

Thanks again astroguy for all your expertise! I will do everything you suggested, and post again if any more problems arise

* mails astroguy some beers... hopefully you're 21! *

-brent

edit: ps- well since i didn't know your fav brand, i did give you some kudos. hah. i don't know what they are good for other than just plain recognizition... like the post count. ive been on lots of boards and never seen them before. lol. but enjoy!

[astroguy]

You're welcome. But that's only a start; hopefully the puffer will get better.

Thanks for the beers and kudo, and yes I am more than 21!

[Menagerie]

I will just add that in a cycled tank, nitrates under 40ppm is good. If you are a real zealot, or if your fish are affected by nitrates, then keeping them lower is best. Keep in mind that nitrates are basically plant fertilizer. If this was a FW tank, I would suggest putting a couple low light plants in there.
Do you have a nitrate reading straight from the tap?
As far as feeding every other day, that is fine. Larger fish do not need to eat everyday. Plus, it will lessen the likelyhood of liver and kidney disease (at least that's how I treat my African cichlids).

[flipz]

Yea, I had a problem with high nitrate a while ago, and tried adding some plants to combat it. Of course being a brackish tank they only lasted about 2 weeks before dying. So they didn't do much except infest my tank with snails. Which thankfully my puffer devoured. Lol. I will test the tap water and post results, and post results of my tank in a few days after water changes.

[flipz]

Ok, I tested the tap water and it's at 10ppm for nitrate... perfectly fine. So that's not the problem.

I just wanted to post an update on the puffer. It's not his eye that is actually swelling/popping out, which makes me think it's not popeye. It's not like the eye is coming out of the socket. It looks more like the lens on his eye is swollen. From the side you can see his lens sticking way out, but his eyeball itself is where it should be. And it's only his right eye. And it is slightly cloudy. Not like you can't see through it but it is cloudy. And also recently in the past couple hours he hasn't been using his right fin so much. It seems to work fine, it's not fraying or anything, he just wasn't using it a lot. Maybe I'm just paranoid now, but this is what's leading me to believe that maybe the Columbian did maybe get some toxins in him? But really I don't know. Just wanted to post all updates so I can try to get some more help.

I'll continue performing the water changes and see what happens.

[flipz]

Alright, well it's a few days later. I have done the water changes and got the nitrates down to 30! going to keep it up so that they go lower, and stay that way. all other params are still perfect too.

now here's the problem

i went out of town for 2 days for easter. i came back and the puffer was laying on the bottom, not moving. both eyes were clouded now (no bulging, so not popeye) and he wasn't moving. i thought for sure he was dead. i grabbed the net and reached in there to get him, and he took off, zooming around the tank. well because both eyes were clouded now, and he seemed to only be getting worse, i decided to treat with binox. so i put treatment in the tank last night, and this morning he didn't physically look any better, however was acting better. he was swimming a lot more, and just generally more active.

hopefully this fixes whatever was wrong with him. any suggestions / comments?

-flipz