Things seem to be progressing alright.

[waynephinney]

Wow... that last thread went crazy.

To simplify things, I saw two options, each of which make sense to me as someone who has never done this before. I'm trying things one way, and then if it doesn't work, I'll restart and try things the way I should have in the first place before I got in over my head. But anyways, to get back to things.

My fish seem to have been doing better yesterday and today. When I first got them, I lost three, but I think the pleco was due to stress since it was less than a day. The other ones are the tetras with the little red dot over their eyes. Those two died a few days back. At that same time, the other two didnt' look so good. They were hardly moving and looked ready to croak. Yesterday they were very active and very playful a look a lot better. Also, the white cloudiness started to clear up yesterday, and it's looking a fair deal better today.

I'm going to keep watching the tank closely and keeping an eye on my fish to make sure I don't see anything that looks bad in their behavioral patterns. They are all very active now and seem to be doing well.

No worries. I'm not going to starve them forever. Tomorrow I'm going to start feeding them, but substantially less than I fed them before since that clearly is a major problem I had in the beginning. Nobody told me that overfeeding increased the ammonia in the tank, so I figured it wouldn't hurt them. Oh well... that's how you learn.

Anyhow, for those of you who are interested in seeing how things go, I'll keep updating you. I'm sorry to those of you who think I'm trying to kill my fish, because I'm not. I would do full water changes every day if I felt that it would help significantly over the other options out there, I would do it. I'm no stranger to doing work to take care of my pets. I have four ferrets after all. I'm used to it.

And someone asked if I understood the whole cycle. I think I do at this point. Here's what I have learned about the cycle via these forums.

Fish poo, food, and anything else that can rot in the tank will create ammonia, which is bad. As bacteria grow in the tank, they will convert the ammonia to nitrites which are still not neccesarily a good thing, but it's one step closer to the end. Then the nitrites get converted into less harmful nitrates, which if I understand correctly are much easier to keep in check once this cycle has reached a consistent state.

If I didn't quite learn that right, could someone please correct me, because I do want to make sure I'm understanding this right.

Anyways, I'm going to keep watching the fish and see where things go and I'll keep all of you updated. I'm just hoping this actually works out and I don't lose too many more fish. If it doesn't work out, then I'll start the tank fresh, give it time to cycle, and then add fish a handful at a time like I should have been informed to do in the first place.

Thanks again for all the help you guys have given me!

PS- If I don't take your advice, please don't take it personally. It's not that I'm not hearing what you're saying. I just see several options and when it feels like a 50/50 chance is what's presented to me, I pick what method I like best, because it seems like there's an equal chance of success.

I can't wait to see what happens.

 

[jcarlilesiu]

It sounds like you are on a good track. You do have the cycle pretty much down. Even after you have an established tank i.e. nitrates steadily maintained through water changes not to exceed 40ppm ( I usually try to keep mine around 15-20) you could still have instances of ammonia spikes. I only say this not to give you the false conclusion that you are in the clear once the tank completely cycles. Adding more fish (bio-load) can potentially give you a ammonia spike until the nitrates can catch up to the higher load among other things. Have you checked the water perameters yet especially ammonia. Typically this cycle will take about 6 weeks, during this time you should continue to monitor the ammonia levels daily or so (and nitrIte levels once you see the ammonia peak) until there are absolutly neither in the tank. On a side note, I still test my water weekly just to make sure nothing funky is going on.

If you think your tetras are happy and playful, watch what they do when you do a water change

 

[talloulou]

Also remember when cycling with fish there are fish that are more hardy and comparitively more likely to survive a cycle. And when stocking a tank always do it slowly and as a general rule add bottem feeders and fish that are known for being delicate last. Cycling is very hard on bottem feeders.

If you plan on buying more fish once the tank has cycled remember to add them slowly and not all at once so the bacteria have a chance to keep up with the bioload. Hope that helps and I wasn't just restating the obvious

 

[waynephinney]

I already have so many fish in this tank that I only intend to buy two more iridescents because I've read that they are extra jumpy with none of their kind around. Those will be the final addition to the tank barring a snail or two here or there. Then of course, as they grow, I'll get a bigger thank for the balas and iridescent. It's my understanding that the rest of these fish will stay small enough where even if all of them survive they won't quite be too much for the tank.

In a few days I may finally pick up that ammonia test kit just for the fun of it, but if I was really as bad off as everyone was implying, I didn't want to waste too much money if all the fish were going to die.

I think the air stone may have played a large role in how happy and active my fish seem now. It adds a bit more of a current to the tank, and the guppies like to play in it. One thing that was funny as hell happened yesterday. I had two fish, and they would take turns. One would play dead, and the other would push it all around the tank, and then push it into the bubbles to watch it float around. Then when it hit the ground, it would spring back to life, the other one would play dead, and they'd do it again.

Reminds me of that ant farm I had. One would play dead, get carried around for a while, and then they'd reverse the roles.

I like my fishies!

 

[Jchillin]

Can't say that this one won't go haywire as well. The thread will be locked if it does.

 

[7Enigma]

Jchillin,

Don't worry, I'm staying out.

 

[bosk1]

Hey Wayne, not to turn up the heat on the stuff in the old thread, but there are a couple of questions I have about the approach you are taking, if you don't mind me asking. Again, I'm not trying to exacerbate a flame war or anything. I just want to understand your rationale if you don't mind explaining.

1. You appear to clearly understand that ammonia is toxic to the fish. So why not test for it, since the longer your fish are exposed to it, the more damage they will sustain?

2. Why not do the partial water changes recommended, since they will help reduce the amount of toxins produced in the water, and they will not have anything but a negligible impact on your tank's cycle?

Note to Jchillin: I do not believe these questions are confrontational, and I do not intend them to be so. If you disagree, please feel free to delete my post instead of locking Wayne's thread on my account. Thanks.

 

[Jchillin]

Note to Jchillin: I do not believe these questions are confrontational, and I do not intend them to be so. If you disagree, please feel free to delete my post instead of locking Wayne's thread on my account. Thanks.

Valid questions, no problem.

 

[waynephinney]

Well, I'm hoping that the half dozen bio balls, the air stone, and the lack of feeding is helping things out. It seems to be. If you guys are this certain that a partial water change won't hurt things, then I very well may do it. It's just hard to know who is right and who is not when every bit of advice I have gotten thus far makes sense for various reasons.

If all goes well, I will be starting a second tank and actually doing it right since I received a free tank recently. Naturally, doing something right in the first place is easier than fixing it after you've screwed it up.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

And someone asked if I understood the whole cycle. I think I do at this point. Here's what I have learned about the cycle via these forums.

Fish poo, food, and anything else that can rot in the tank will create ammonia, which is bad. As bacteria grow in the tank, they will convert the ammonia to nitrites which are still not neccesarily a good thing, but it's one step closer to the end. Then the nitrites get converted into less harmful nitrates, which if I understand correctly are much easier to keep in check once this cycle has reached a consistent state.

If I didn't quite learn that right, could someone please correct me, because I do want to make sure I'm understanding this right.

You are absolutely correct. Bacteria#1 converts the ammonia into nitrites, and bacteria#2 converts the nitrites into nitrates, which is the end product. And that's the reason for regular PWC's after the tank is cycled, to keep the nitrates at a low level. And you are correct, nitrates are much less harmful than the first 2, and is much easier to keep in check. Good job and keep up the good work.

 

[Zagz]

I can attest to water changes not hurting fish. When I started out in this hobby I knew nothing about cycling. I lost several fish. I do regular water changes and can only tell you my fish act different after a water change. They are more active and seem considerably more happy. It only makes sense that taking poisions out of the water can't hurt and in fact can only help. Congrats on the second tank btw. MTS sets in fast, LOL. I'm up to 9 tanks now. 8O

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Well, I'm hoping that the half dozen bio balls, the air stone, and the lack of feeding is helping things out. It seems to be. If you guys are this certain that a partial water change won't hurt things, then I very well may do it. It's just hard to know who is right and who is not when every bit of advice I have gotten thus far makes sense for various reasons.

If all goes well, I will be starting a second tank and actually doing it right since I received a free tank recently. Naturally, doing something right in the first place is easier than fixing it after you've screwed it up.

PWC's are always good, but even better if cycling with fish. It will not hinder your cycle at all, and will be more beneficial for your fish. Keep up the good work.

 

[waynephinney]

Well, I haven't done a PWC since Sunday, and I intended to do one every week anyhow, so there's no harm in me doing it tomorrow after work.

And yes, multiple tank syndrome is kicking in already. I'm not sure what I'm going to want to do with that one. Amphibians? Crabs? Guppies? (my girl really likes the guppies). We'll see, but thankfully I don't intend to do anything with that tank for a while. I still need to keep learning on this one.

 

[Zagz]

I like the guppies too, but warning on guppies, if you don't do all males or all females you will have a TON of guppies in no time. I started out with 5 and have over 40 now! 8O. I recently got Albino African Clawed Frogs, they are hilarious. A lot of the time they don't do much but often they cuddle each other, chase each other around the tank, play in the plants. But then I want some of everything, 9 tanks and I want discus next. But since I still have my kitchen table I will have to wait until I convince my husband it really isn't necessary.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Instead of the dining table, how about getting one of those square tanks with fw stingrays, and have a glass-top table over it? hmmmm, sounds tempting, hehehe.....

 

[BillyZ]

... You are absolutely correct. Bacteria#1 converts the ammonia into nitrites, and bacteria#2 converts the nitrites into nitrates, which is the end product. ...

This isn't quite true... at least in SW. I would only imagine the same nitrogen cycle exists in FW as it does in SW (albeit with different bacteria). If someone knows this to be false please say so ) I'm not as "up" on my FW as I am SW.

In anaerobic areas (places with very low to no oxygen) of your substrate, and in SW in the live rock, a bacteria#3 exists that draws oxygen from the nitrAtes and feeds on the rest. This breaks down the nitrates and produces a gas that escapes your tanks water at the surface. This is what allows a tank to maintain low nitrates levels without a PWC. Logically, natural bodies of water don't get PWCs so it should be apparent that there is a 3rd stage that removes nitrates naturally.

This is NOT meant in any way to suggest someone should not still to PWCs, just simply stating that the nitrogen cycle doesn't end at nitrates.

 

[waynephinney]

That makes sense.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Actually, there are anearobic processes if you use sand, and that's the reason for stirring up the sand. The buildup of the gasses harm or kill the fish. So in FW, it does really stop at nitrates, and PWC's are required.

Actually, to be honest, natural bodies of water do get a constant amount of PWC's. You may not realize it, but rivers going in and out of the bodies provide this, and all eventually ends up in the oceans. And as for those places that don't have the output and only go down via evaporation get's pretty musty smelling, and no fish. I know of 2 ponds here that have inlets, but no outlets, and they are pretty nasty, naturally.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

I alsso just thought of this. If SW uses these processes to reduce the number of PWC's, then that's like the oceans in the world. Lakes have water running into and out of them, while the oceans only have water running into them, then evaporating. Also, lakes have tons of plants as well, same with ponds. And they take in massive nitrates. So in reality, everything balances out, IMO. Sounds like this would be a good topic in another thread, lot's of interesting concepts.

 

[Jchillin]

Sounds like this would be a good topic in another thread, lot's of interesting concepts.

Actually, that has been discussed, but it has been a long time. I second the suggestion, go for it.