clown with ick

[tmkx3]

I have a clown that I believe has ick. I just added my fish on the 11th of November. I have 125g tank w/100lbs of live rock. How do I treat this? Do I need to treat the whole tank? This is my stock list in the tank so far. 1 fire shrimp
2 starfish
2 emerald crabs
3 green chromis
2 false perculas

I have treated ick before with my fresh water tanks but I am not sure about how to treat saltwater. Can the inverts be host for the ick? I was thinking about putting all the fish in the qt and starving the ick? The other fish don"t have any signs. If I put them in the qt they will have to be treated with meds also. Would it be better to treat only the single fish and not add the others until they are ill?

I have read that you should remove all the lr, sand and invert to treat the main.That will be quite a task. I have 125lbs of sand. It wasn't live sand when I put it in. Could it be left?

My qt tank is not set-up yet for saltwater. It is only a 10g that currently has a single guppy in it . Will the biological bacteria die in the filter when I add saltwater? How can you use a qt thats not cycled? I do have a hob on my main tank but it has only been on there for about 2 weeks so I dont know how much bacteria it has on it.

What is the best way to treat ick. I have learned from my freshwater tanks that meds can be as harmful as the disease. What is the best method that will be the least stressful?Thanx for all your help

Tinia

 

[steve-s]

The best and least stressful treatment would be hyposalinity. Do not under any circumstances treat in the main display for any reason.

You will need to clean the 10 gal QT and reset up for all the fish in the main tank. If possible I would urge you to get a larger QT as the 10 gal will be quite taxing on water quality, a 20 gal long or larger. You can then transfer the HOB from the main and fill the QT with the main tanks water. Do not add any sand or rock, just PVC elbows and short tube sections for the fish to hide in.

Some articles for you to read....

Marine ich...
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

Hyposalinity...
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html
Be especially mindful of pH during the treatment but especially during the initial salinity drop. You will most likely need a good marine buffer on hand to keep the pH constant. I would also suggest buffering the RO ater used for the salinity dilution.

The need to quarantine...
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.php

Cheers
Steve

 

[tmkx3]

8O okay I am crazy. I saw these little white spots all over one of my clown this morning at about 6:30 am ( I had my son look and he saw them too) When I got home at 9:30 am and checked the fish they were gone. Where did they go. I read the articles you asked my to read ( they were very informative ) and from what I understand the white spots should be there for a while before they fall off. My fish didn't have any spots yesterday. I watch them all very closely to make sure they are all eating and that they are acting normal. I drive my family with how much I watch my fish. My clowns like to swish the sand with their tails could've this been sand? My husband thought that was what it was but I didn't think the sand would stick to them. :? I guess I should watch them for a few days.



Thanx

Tinia

 

[DragonForce]

My moms clown came down with ich not to long ago. It was in terrible shape and was housed with a firefish. I thought it would be in the best interest for the fish to be left in the display and provided with exceptional water conditions and it recovered. It was a gamble we took and it ended up working out.

I do not advocate the method we used, but for our case we took the risk and thought it was in the best interest for the fish to be left alone. I have had 2 clowns die from ich and I tried treating both to have them just die from stress of the QT.

Treating is almost ALWAYS the better option but I thought I would share my experiances. Good luck!

 

[steve-s]

My clowns like to swish the sand with their tails could've this been sand? My husband thought that was what it was but I didn't think the sand would stick to them. :? I guess I should watch them for a few days.

Common nesting behavior for many damsel species. Do watch carefully over the next 7-10 days. Crypt can be rather deceiving in the early stages. It can easily be sand caught in the slime coat or trapped debris. Time will tell one way of the other.

Cheers
Steve

 

[tmkx3]

I bought some garlicXtreme from the lfs. Does this help? I am a little confused about the instructions. It says to soak the food at the ratio of 2 drops to one teaspoon. That is way to much food for one sitting. I only have 5 small fish. Can I treat one teaspoon and save it? How exactly do you soak all the food? 2 drops is not that much fluid. Do you add water? Would it be better to just add 10drops to the tank? Is this less effective? My clown is acting fine. She is active and eating so far.


Tinia

 

[DragonForce]

The whole theory about garlic is that you want the fish to ingest the garlic. Many people swear it works, however, there has been no proof of this.

I would put the food in a little cup and add a bit of water, then I would add 1-2 drops of the garlic to the cup and let it get nice and saturated for a minute or 2.

 

[tmkx3]

thanx guy so much for your help. I am still not sure I have ick. This morning when I turned the light on the clowns were asleep in a bed they dug in the sand. My sand is like sugar. The clown in question only had two or three spots on her, yesterday she was covered. I am preparing to treat my fish if it is needed. How long can I wait before I start a treatment. I am thinking about removing my inverts and using hypo on the main tank. I only have a 10g tank right now for qt and I am afraid to put five fish in there. I am thinking about getting some type of rubbermaid container to put he inverts in. I can't put them in the 10g. It has been used for a copper treatment. What other type of equitment will they need? I know that hypo will kill anything living in the lr but will it harm the beneficial bacteria?
I am thinking about removing the inverts instead of the fish because it will much easier to catch the inverts. I'll just remove the rock their on and the inverts don't cause that much of a bio-load on the new temporary system. I have a hob on the main tank but it has only been there for 2 weeks. I am hoping it will have enough bacteria to support the inverts. If I am making the wrong choice please let me know.

Thanx,


Tinia

 

[steve-s]

I would actually suggest you do that the other way 'round. Put the fish in the rubbermaid tub and leave the main tank alone. The basic equipment still applies.

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/quarantinetanks.html

Bacteria will be supressed some but unlike copper treatments it will not be destroyed and will recover. The main concern is to be sure pH is maintained at all times, can't stress that one enough. You also need to acurately measure salinity. Hypo will kill everything except bacteria and the fish so anything living in the rock and sand will perish. It can make maintaining water quality quite difficult.

As far as how long you have, that will greatly depend on if any return and in what number. The heavier the infestation the higher probability gill function will be impaired.

Cheers
Steve

 

[tmkx3]

This is third day since I originally saw the spots. There was nothing this morning. 2 days in a row now. I am trying to get my hands on a bigger used tank and I am trying to by some time here and let the filter pads in the hob mature. Today is three weeks since I added them. They were put in there in the first place for a qt for my next new fish. I have my fingers crossed. Oh, I also need to mention that one of my green chromis is twitching kinda like it is trying to shake something off. I haven't seen any flashing on objects. The other clown sometimes will rub its sides in the sand but it is always swishing and playing in the sand. He is my hole digger.


Tinia

 

[steve-s]

Too early to tell one way or the other but let's hope it's just the sand. Keep reporting back as the days pass.

Cheers
Steve

 

[tmkx3]

saturday nothing that I can see. Has one little bump that looks like a pimple maybe. It's the size of a pin head, not white and under the skin.

 

[steve-s]

C. irritans does not necessarily need to be white or in plain sight. The trophonts can bury deeper in the epithelium where you won't see the typical bacterial "tufts" associated with them. In either case, this is still not concrete evidence for or against it's presence. From when you first noticed there may be a problem, the fish can be quickly infested or take several weeks. You'll just have to be patient and ensure you maintain good water quality and introduce no new items for the next while.

I hope you are getting that QT set up and ready just in case...?

Cheers
Steve

 

[tmkx3]

Monday morning. She has spots again. The other fish seem okay. except for irotic swimming sometimes. The clown without spots and the green chromis have been hanging out with the fire shrimp. I thought they were trying to take his territory. Duh They are proably getting him to clean them. All of the fish are still eating and are active. Is the garlic a waste of time? How often should I feed it any way?

Now I have to decide how to treat them? Do all the fish need to be treated or just the one in question?I will leave the main fallow irregardless, but should I put the healthy fish in a separate qt?

I still am not sure how I am gonna catch them? All of my fish sleep in the rocks or behind them. I am thinking about removing the rocks, catching the fish and then putting the rock back. I don't think there is any way to catch them with all that rock.

I hate this!!!!!!

 

[steve-s]

Is the garlic a waste of time? How often should I feed it any way?

That's the jist of the problem. No one can tell you what amount is needed, how often and for what duration. It has never been studied in that type of detail. To this day, it is still not known if it really does what anecdotal observation suggests. It is by no means proven or prefered as a treatment. That said, it can help as it is also an antioxidant. Foods should be soaked in a few drops daily to have any real effect but not on a permanent basis as it is not known what dose/duration starts to affect the liver and kidney.

Now I have to decide how to treat them? Do all the fish need to be treated or just the one in question?I will leave the main fallow irregardless, but should I put the healthy fish in a separate qt?

The least stressful to them would be hyposalinity. If you decide on copper, use Cupramine, especially considering your fish species. If you have diagnosed it as C. irritans, you must leave the tank fallow for a period of 6-8 weeks. All fish must be removed and all should be treated equally.

I still am not sure how I am gonna catch them? All of my fish sleep in the rocks or behind them. I am thinking about removing the rocks, catching the fish and then putting the rock back. I don't think there is any way to catch them with all that rock.

You'd be suprised how much easier it is to catch the fish after lights out and having low ambient room light. Knowing where the fish sleep and night just makes it that much easier. They can simpley be nudged out of their respective hideouts and will often swim right into your container. Most diurnal reef fish have very poor night vision.

Cheers
Steve

 

[tmkx3]

I didn't know that about the night vision. I will definately try that first.

All I have right now is a 10g tank for a qt. Will that be to hard to maintain the water with 5 fish. Should I get a rubbermaid tub instead? I will be really hard to observe the fish in there, With it be christmas time I can't really get a bigger tank. At 20g tank around here goes for about $80. I haven't been able to find a used one yet.

As far as cycling the new qt. Does bio-spira work? I am concerned about my chemicals going nuts in the qt. I am going to try the hypo-treatment. I have read several threads about people losing their fish because of a ph crash. How do you keep this from happening? I really want to go with this treatment but it does sound like it is alot harder to maintain the ph and water quality.

I am going to keep looking for a bigger tank and I am going to try to remove the fish this weekend.


Tinia

 

[steve-s]

All I have right now is a 10g tank for a qt. Will that be to hard to maintain the water with 5 fish. Should I get a rubbermaid tub instead? I will be really hard to observe the fish in there, With it be christmas time I can't really get a bigger tank. At 20g tank around here goes for about $80. I haven't been able to find a used one yet.

A 10 gal would be fairly cramped. Shop around at a few hardware/dept stores. Many will have clear tote bins that can be used just the same. The container is not that important as long as it is food safe and you can observe the animals condition in proper detail.

As far as cycling the new qt. Does bio-spira work? I am concerned about my chemicals going nuts in the qt.

What media is being used in the main tank? More commonly transfering that will be the best solution. The great thing about hyposalinity is you can use sorbant media's that will help improve water quality. Carbon, polyfilters and PARA pads can be a great aid in water quality. Water changes will still be your best solution in the short term. The biofilter will suffer in the beginning but will recover as long as pH, salinity and temp are maintained at a consistant level.

I am going to try the hypo-treatment. I have read several threads about people losing their fish because of a ph crash. How do you keep this from happening? I really want to go with this treatment but it does sound like it is alot harder to maintain the ph and water quality.

The best suggestion there is be sure the RO water used to lower the salinity is buffered to the correct pH each time you use it. That goes for water changes as well. The more you can keep pH steady and not have to "repair" it along the way, the better time of it you will have. Proper room aeration and surface water movement will help as well.

Cheers
Steve

 

[tmkx3]

okay,so I went to the lfs yesterday to see if they had any used tanks for sale cheap and I told him what was going on and of course to make me doubt myself again he told me he didn't think I had Ick. I told him about how the spots were there really clead in the morning and you couldn't see them during the day and that I had been told that they in bed themselves deeper in the skin during the day. He said that he had never heard of that and any case of ick that he had treated the spots were always visable and there was no doubt what it was. Anyway he said that any time they have an out break they use a product called kick Ick. He said that it is safe for inverts and my lr. Do you know anything about this product? It is a little expensive. I was like $30 a bottle. I know that the lfs are in business to make money but these guys have always been pretty honest with me in the past. There the ones that originally told me I didn't need a high dollar filter if I had lr.

My fish had a few spots this morning but not as many as yesterday.

They are all still acting normal eating and active.

I will check out the hardware stores

Thanx so much


Tinia

 

[steve-s]

Crypt becomes more and more visible on the fish as the parasite reproduces and theront density increases with each new life cycle. It will not commonly remain unnoticed for long unless the fish has aquired some level of aquired immunity. Not the best thing in the long run really as it is usually short lived.

As far as the Kick ick, some have had limited success with it but the honest truth is it cannot be relied upon. More commonly the results are 50/50 in terms of effectiveness. To advise someone to use that kind of logic is IMO irresponsible. It would be like your doctor telling you you could take one medication and have a 50% chance of living or taking a proven remedy with 100% results. Which would you choose, easy answer I think ...

Is there any chance you have a digi camera and can post a clear pic? Still not convinced myself your actually seeing C. irritans.

Cheers
Steve