Have you beat velvet??? Then I need your help!

[Hobgob]

Im sorry your having so much trouble.

 

[Andy Sager]

Beating Velvet

Been doing a blackout + Coppersafe for the last 3 weeks. I "think" it might be slightly better... but it's probably me just "wishing" it was.

I'm still looking for anyone that's actually beat velvet and what treatment they used. Almost been treating with Coppersafe for 4 months now.

The 2 best meds for treating velvet are copper and darkness. I've used that method every time with success if you catch the disease early enough.

Chealated copper is a bonded copper to make it less toxic almost working as a time released med.

The best method that I know of is to remove all the fish from the aquarium into a bare hospital tank. Treat with copper or coppersafe making sure you are at a thearaputic level. (You'll need a different test kit depending on the type of copper you use.) Leave the light off at all times. Treatment takes about 3 weeks to be absolutly sure it's gone. (You'll be feeding the fish sparingly during the treatment period. I fed once every other day. Feed when outside lighting allows the fish to see the food.) In the main tank, either strip it down and boil the gravel or turn the heater up and cook the tank. If you are treating the main tank for 4 months and still not getting rid of the problem, you have an active cycle of the parasites most likely because the copper is not at the right level. Copper is absorbed into a number of different things most people use in their aquariums as decorations so it's important to use a bare tank for treatment. The free swimming stage of this parasite is hiding in your gravel (most likely) which is why you can't cure it. As soon as the lights go on, it's starts to mature and attach itself to the fish.

In the old days, we used to treat Rasbora Hets for velvet with pennies because there was no copper meds available to the trade. ( They were the only fish that routinely came down with velvet.) Like I said, copper works!!!

Good luck

 

[siva]

I've beat velvet. Several times. The only treatment I've used is salt and heat.

 

[sobersteve323]

The 2 best meds for treating velvet are copper and darkness. I've used that method every time with success if you catch the disease early enough.

Chealated copper is a bonded copper to make it less toxic almost working as a time released med.

The best method that I know of is to remove all the fish from the aquarium into a bare hospital tank. Treat with copper or coppersafe making sure you are at a thearaputic level. (You'll need a different test kit depending on the type of copper you use.) Leave the light off at all times. Treatment takes about 3 weeks to be absolutly sure it's gone. (You'll be feeding the fish sparingly during the treatment period. I fed once every other day. Feed when outside lighting allows the fish to see the food.) In the main tank, either strip it down and boil the gravel or turn the heater up and cook the tank. If you are treating the main tank for 4 months and still not getting rid of the problem, you have an active cycle of the parasites most likely because the copper is not at the right level. Copper is absorbed into a number of different things most people use in their aquariums as decorations so it's important to use a bare tank for treatment. The free swimming stage of this parasite is hiding in your gravel (most likely) which is why you can't cure it. As soon as the lights go on, it's starts to mature and attach itself to the fish.

In the old days, we used to treat Rasbora Hets for velvet with pennies because there was no copper meds available to the trade. ( They were the only fish that routinely came down with velvet.) Like I said, copper works!!!

Good luck

Thanks for the encouragement! I didn't think about the sand acting as a barrier. I just assumed since the test kit was reading the proper dosage it was correct.

Regarding cooking the tank... Do you think it will kill everything in the sand or should I toss it and do ~90 in the tank barebottom? It's just pool filter sand so its cheap.

Also would it be ok to use filter media from the display tank to seed the hospital so I don't have to do as many water changes? Not a problem doing them just gets expensive with the redosing lol.

Thanks again for the encouragement

 

[Andy Sager]

Salt and heat only?

I've beat velvet. Several times. The only treatment I've used is salt and heat.

Are you sure it was velvet you were treating? What you described is a perfect treatment for Ick not velvet. The best way to tell without a microscope is by color. What color was your organism?

 

[Andy Sager]

My suggestion...

Thanks for the encouragement! I didn't think about the sand acting as a barrier. I just assumed since the test kit was reading the proper dosage it was correct.

Regarding cooking the tank... Do you think it will kill everything in the sand or should I toss it and do ~90 in the tank barebottom? It's just pool filter sand so its cheap.

Also would it be ok to use filter media from the display tank to seed the hospital so I don't have to do as many water changes? Not a problem doing them just gets expensive with the redosing lol.

Thanks again for the encouragement

...would be to not use anything from the main tank. It's contaminated!
I'd set up your hospital tank and use a biological agent to seed the tank. (Use a cheapy corner filter or a sterilized over the back filter if you're using one on your main tank.) You'll have to keep an eye on the ammonia level during the time the fish are in the hospital tank. If the ammonia doesn't spike, the fish should be okay for the 3 weeks. I'd do a partial water change after week 2 and bring the copper level back up.
As for cooking the tank, 90 isn't high enough. I'd either crank the heater quite high with everything non living inside or breakdown the tank, sterilize everything and start from scratch. Seed the tank with the bio agent a day or two before putting the fish back into it. Watch for ammonia spikes and add more bio agent if it does until it levels off.

I question the accuracy of your copper test kit. Are you sure it was for Chealated Copper? (You said you were using coppersafe.) You'll get a false reading if you use the regular copper kit for chealated copper. Make sure your reagents are good as well. They do go bad over time. If the copper level was correct for 4 months, you may not be dealing with Velvet or you've created a super strain of parasite which is not a good thing. (Sorry.) So I should ask, what makes you think that it's Velvet? Size? Color? Proper treatment comes from proper diagnosis.

 

[siva]

Are you sure it was velvet you were treating? What you described is a perfect treatment for Ick not velvet. The best way to tell without a microscope is by color. What color was your organism?

Yes it works great for ich, but it's worked for me with velvet as well. What I'm referring to is a silver or gold dusting, usually starting around the gill area. I've treated for it 3 or 4 times in bettas and livebearers.

 

[sobersteve323]

...would be to not use anything from the main tank. It's contaminated!
I'd set up your hospital tank and use a biological agent to seed the tank. (Use a cheapy corner filter or a sterilized over the back filter if you're using one on your main tank.) You'll have to keep an eye on the ammonia level during the time the fish are in the hospital tank. If the ammonia doesn't spike, the fish should be okay for the 3 weeks. I'd do a partial water change after week 2 and bring the copper level back up.
As for cooking the tank, 90 isn't high enough. I'd either crank the heater quite high with everything non living inside or breakdown the tank, sterilize everything and start from scratch. Seed the tank with the bio agent a day or two before putting the fish back into it. Watch for ammonia spikes and add more bio agent if it does until it levels off.

I question the accuracy of your copper test kit. Are you sure it was for Chealated Copper? (You said you were using coppersafe.) You'll get a false reading if you use the regular copper kit for chealated copper. Make sure your reagents are good as well. They do go bad over time. If the copper level was correct for 4 months, you may not be dealing with Velvet or you've created a super strain of parasite which is not a good thing. (Sorry.) So I should ask, what makes you think that it's Velvet? Size? Color? Proper treatment comes from proper diagnosis.

The symptoms are in the first post of this thread. I'm open to suggestions if there's anything else the symptoms point to.

First bottle of coppersafe was a tiny one and this one is a economy size. Both were new when I bought (not sure how long on the shelf of course). Same with the api copper test kit.

The hospital and HOB are all equip I use for the hospital tank and bleach after each use.

 

[Andy Sager]

That's a new on to me...

Yes it works great for ich, but it's worked for me with velvet as well. What I'm referring to is a silver or gold dusting, usually starting around the gill area. I've treated for it 3 or 4 times in bettas and livebearers.

That's a new one to me...
In my 40 + years of working with fish, I've never seen velvet CURED without copper. You learn something new every day

 

[Andy Sager]

I reread your post....

The symptoms are in the first post of this thread. I'm open to suggestions if there's anything else the symptoms point to.

First bottle of coppersafe was a tiny one and this one is a economy size. Both were new when I bought (not sure how long on the shelf of course). Same with the api copper test kit.

The hospital and HOB are all equip I use for the hospital tank and bleach after each use.

...and yes, it sure does sound like oodinium (aka Velvet)
Considering that there are 2 freshwater strains of oodinium, maybe you've contracted an infestation that has become or started out more immune to copper. Considering that the chlorophyll in the parasite helps feed the little boogers, the darkness should help decrease the parasites strength. Using a bare hospital tank should prevent the parasites from hiding during their free swimming stage (also possible being filtered out by your filter) and reinfesting your tank.
Short of ozone or UV sterilization, time and the treatment I suggested previously should solve your problem. Don't forget to monitor your copper level daily or even twice daily. Assume nothing!

Keep us posted...

 

[sobersteve323]

...and yes, it sure does sound like oodinium (aka Velvet)
Considering that there are 2 freshwater strains of oodinium, maybe you've contracted an infestation that has become or started out more immune to copper. Considering that the chlorophyll in the parasite helps feed the little boogers, the darkness should help decrease the parasites strength. Using a bare hospital tank should prevent the parasites from hiding during their free swimming stage (also possible being filtered out by your filter) and reinfesting your tank.
Short of ozone or UV sterilization, time and the treatment I suggested previously should solve your problem. Don't forget to monitor your copper level daily or even twice daily. Assume nothing!

Keep us posted...

In search of cures, my many many clicks (and consequently tons of spyware download lol) I did read a few times that one strain was a little more "hardy" if you will.

On the bright side I just checked them out. The gold on the gills is about 2/3 what it was last week. I don't think its me being overly optimistic either so that's a plus. But the brown dusting is still approx the same.

Re: testing. Reminded me that I sorta have a beef with colored test kits because what is orange to one person might be yellow to another. Not referring to any specific kit just speaking in general lol. Just a random rant/tangent.

 

[sobersteve323]

Oh and hearing some positive stories makes me still hopeful. I read an old post from last year that the OP fought it for a year and was considering euthanasia. That sorta got me down after reading through it.

 

[siva]

That's a new one to me...
In my 40 + years of working with fish, I've never seen velvet CURED without copper. You learn something new every day

Wow. I've never heard that. The first time I came across it and researched treatment, I came to the conclusion that's what I should try first. I guess I've been pretty lucky.

 

[Hobgob]

Wow. I've never heard that. The first time I came across it and researched treatment, I came to the conclusion that's what I should try first. I guess I've been pretty lucky.

My one lfs said depending on how bad it was, it was an option. But salt help to de-stress the fish which would make it have a better chance fighting it off.

 

[Andy Sager]

Velvet treatments

Wow. I've never heard that. The first time I came across it and researched treatment, I came to the conclusion that's what I should try first. I guess I've been pretty lucky.

I have tried a number of treatments for oodinium over the years including methylene blue, salt, temp. changes, copper, flagyll, antibiotics (for post treatment tissue repair) and combinations of all. The only tried and true method that I found to be effective was copper and darkness. The one variable could be the water. I am on the East Coast of the US and you're on the West. Water chemistry, hardness, ph, etc. all could have an effect on why you were successful and I wasn't so I don't discount your results. What I am offering is a method that I know has worked in many parts of this country and around the world.
Let's keep our fish healthy so we don't have to deal with this anymore

 

[Andy Sager]

Sounds good...

In search of cures, my many many clicks (and consequently tons of spyware download lol) I did read a few times that one strain was a little more "hardy" if you will.

On the bright side I just checked them out. The gold on the gills is about 2/3 what it was last week. I don't think its me being overly optimistic either so that's a plus. But the brown dusting is still approx the same.

Re: testing. Reminded me that I sorta have a beef with colored test kits because what is orange to one person might be yellow to another. Not referring to any specific kit just speaking in general lol. Just a random rant/tangent.

Sounds like you're on the right path and you've got them on the ropes. Now you have to knock them out. Remember, oodinium has 2 stages: 1 free swimming and 1 attached to the fish. You may be seeing a conversion from one stage to the other so you can't be sure the fish are on the mend or just getting a reprieve. You would need to take a water sample under a microscope to see if any free swimming parasites are present.
If I hadn't gone into the pet business I was training to be a
veterinarian so I look at diseases a bit differently. More cause and effect than anything else. I was also trained in fish by a certified Ichthyologist who was a friend of the family. For me, fish were more than just a hobby. The science within fish keeping is fascinating. A healthy environment is key to successful fish keeping.
But I digress....
Test kits... I realize color chart kits are difficult to some and easy to others. The best hint I can give you is to take your results into the sun and compare against a white piece of paper. That's the best way I've found to be accurate. With copper kits, if you use the wrong kit, you get wrong info. Chelated copper shows up on a copper ion kit in a much higher concentration than actually present. That's why I strongly urge you to confirm that you are using the correct test kit for the med you are using. Have your LFS doublecheck your results to confirm you findings.

I hope I'm not giving you too much info and getting you confused. Oodinium can be a very deadly disease to fish which is why you have to treat it correctly as quickly as possible. So many fish are lost to Oodinium before the aquarist even realizes the fish are sick.

Good luck and keep us posted...

 

[sobersteve323]

Sounds like you're on the right path and you've got them on the ropes. Now you have to knock them out. Remember, oodinium has 2 stages: 1 free swimming and 1 attached to the fish. You may be seeing a conversion from one stage to the other so you can't be sure the fish are on the mend or just getting a reprieve. You would need to take a water sample under a microscope to see if any free swimming parasites are present.
If I hadn't gone into the pet business I was training to be a
veterinarian so I look at diseases a bit differently. More cause and effect than anything else. I was also trained in fish by a certified Ichthyologist who was a friend of the family. For me, fish were more than just a hobby. The science within fish keeping is fascinating. A healthy environment is key to successful fish keeping.
But I digress....
Test kits... I realize color chart kits are difficult to some and easy to others. The best hint I can give you is to take your results into the sun and compare against a white piece of paper. That's the best way I've found to be accurate. With copper kits, if you use the wrong kit, you get wrong info. Chelated copper shows up on a copper ion kit in a much higher concentration than actually present. That's why I strongly urge you to confirm that you are using the correct test kit for the med you are using. Have your LFS doublecheck your results to confirm you findings.

I hope I'm not giving you too much info and getting you confused. Oodinium can be a very deadly disease to fish which is why you have to treat it correctly as quickly as possible. So many fish are lost to Oodinium before the aquarist even realizes the fish are sick.

Good luck and keep us posted...

Thanks for all the tips and keep them coming! Don't worry its not too much info. I tend to do as much research as possible before I do things (sometimes overboard lol). I just got a little discouraged when I saw how straightforward the treatment was but I wasn't having success.

As for the copper test kit it was the one recommended to test for chleated copper (coppersafe) so I'm relatively confident its reading right. I'll admit though, I've upped the dose the last few weeks during water changes. Not a huge uppage but instead of treating for 50 gallons I treated for 65 gallons. Interestingly though I don't think the api kit is sensitive enough to measure the difference because it always reads as "orange" either dose I put (recommended dose is orange versus white/beige for under and olive for over so Im confident with the colors on this one). So maybe the recommended dose was actually lower than the kit says it is. Either way I hope I'm actually seeing improvement.

I understand how fast velvet kills. In the first week when I diagnosed and began treatment I lost a few very quickly. Haven't lost any since week two which was over 3 months ago so at least I guess its been "manageable" lol.

 

[Jlsardina]

Try dosing rally. I have beat velvet with this without copper

 

[Jlsardina]

Here's a link. It was effective in my reef tank and in my FW angel tank

http://www.oceanproaquatics.com/sho...-freshwater-reef-fish-plant-safe-p-19917.html

 

[Andy Sager]

One more thing....

Thanks for all the tips and keep them coming! Don't worry its not too much info. I tend to do as much research as possible before I do things (sometimes overboard lol). I just got a little discouraged when I saw how straightforward the treatment was but I wasn't having success.

As for the copper test kit it was the one recommended to test for chleated copper (coppersafe) so I'm relatively confident its reading right. I'll admit though, I've upped the dose the last few weeks during water changes. Not a huge uppage but instead of treating for 50 gallons I treated for 65 gallons. Interestingly though I don't think the api kit is sensitive enough to measure the difference because it always reads as "orange" either dose I put (recommended dose is orange versus white/beige for under and olive for over so Im confident with the colors on this one). So maybe the recommended dose was actually lower than the kit says it is. Either way I hope I'm actually seeing improvement.

I understand how fast velvet kills. In the first week when I diagnosed and began treatment I lost a few very quickly. Haven't lost any since week two which was over 3 months ago so at least I guess its been "manageable" lol.

Remember to figure actual gallonage of the tank. ( for example, a 10 gal tank does not hold 10 gals of water. ) This will become critical to make sure you dose properly. The formula I used was LxWxH /232. Take the actual measurments from the inside of the tank.

Keep us posted...