Sick Black Moor, with ich and maybe something else

[malfist]

About three months ago, our pleco died, and we never replaced him until recently. Two weeks ago, we bought a pleco that was on sale at the local pet smart, and it died two days later.

We bought a new one the next day with advice from the lady at the store who helped us pick out a healthy pleco. However, that night, after adding the new pleco to our tank, I notice some of the fish had white spots on them that looked like ich. I immediately raised the temperature of the tank to accelerate ich's life cycle and began treating with ich rid for scaleless fish.

Two days ago I noticed the black moor had some discoloration, and he has been bottom sitting quite a bit lately.

Can anyone help me make my fish healthy again?

Here's the stats about the tank:

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• Test Results for the Following:
• * Ammonia Level: 120 ppm
• * Nitrite Level: 0 ppm
• * Nitrate level: 80 ppm
• * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines: 6.2
• * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines): 7.0Other Required Info:
• * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?: Jungle Quick Dip
• * Water temperature?: 80 F
• * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?: 10 gallons, 1.5 years
• * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)?: Tetra "Medium"
• * How often do you change the water and how much?: Once a week, 20%

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• * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?: 2 weeks (ick spotted, medicine says to not do water changes), 50%
• * How many fish in the tank and their size? 3 fish
• * What kind of water additives or conditioners?: Prime, Neutral Regulator
• * What do you feed your fish and how often?: Once daily, goldfish flakes, nightly algea wafer
• * Any new fish added to the tank?: A pleco
• * Any medications added to the tank?: Ick Rid for Scaleless fish
• * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.Ick Rid, nearly two weeks.
• * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?: Fuzz on black moor
• * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?: Black Moor is bottom sitting quite a lot

I am attaching several photos of the black moor taken today.

[/FONT]http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/4299/img0194vy.jpg
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2927/img0195ov.jpg
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/2412/img0196zg.jpg
http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/9663/img0198qh.jpg
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/1189/img0199cc.jpg

http://img546.imageshack.us/i/img0198qh.jpg/

 

[jlk]

Hi and welcome to AA!!! Thank you for all the info! You have some serious issues happening with this tank. There are three fish- we know one is a pleco, one is a moor but what is the third fish?

First and primary issue is your water quality- 120ppm of ammonia and 80ppm of nitrate is lethal. Start changing 50% of the water with temperature-matched, properly conditioned ASAP until you can get the ammonia to ZERO and the nitrate below 20ppm. It will take multiple water changes. Skip the meds. Ich is the least of your concerns right now. Also, invest in a proper test kit (API freshwater master test kit)- strips are inaccurate and worthless.

Stocking is the next big concern. You are heavily overstocked with incompatible fish. A single moor needs a 20gallon tank with 200gph filtration with NO other fish. Two fancy goldfish would need a 30gal with 300gph filtration. Plecos and moors do not mix. Plecos will eat the slimecoat off of goldfish at night. Return the pleco ASAP. We need to know the 3rd fish before we can further advise but your present situation needs to be addressed quickly if you want to help your fish.

Poor water quality & improper stocking has resulted in most of the moors issues. Moors are delicate creatures that do not fair well without healthy water and a cycled tank. Bottom-sitting is a classic sign of high nitrate levels. The fuzziness is likely a bacterial infection from poor water quality. Unfortunately, I can not view the pics you posted because my computer's security system said they are infected with a virus.

The best treatment for goldfish with ich is aquarium salt (.3% salinity)- fancy goldfish do not fair well with heat and the heat is making the bacterial infection worse because bacteria mulitply faster in warmth. Drop the temp ASAP. The salinity will also help to limit the spread of infection. An antibiotic such as kanamycin, maracyn plus or maracyn two (not regular maracyn) will treat his infection. However, it is vital that you keep his water healthy- without healthy water, all the meds in the world will not help. This will mean daily (50%+) water changes to keep toxins in check.

Unfortunately, your petstore has given you very bad advice. We will be able to help you figure things out so you can have a happy, healthy tank(s). We will be able to further help you with some more info and where you want to go from this point (possibily another tank?).

 

[malfist]

The other fish is a catfish of some sort. I don't recall exactly what breed. It has a black horizontal stripe across it's side on both sides.

The ammonia and nitrates are usually 0, it's shot up since I've started using the medicine for ich, and the medicine also recommended I stop water changes for the duration of the treatment.

It's odd that ImageShack would generate an virus warning. I will attempt to use the forum's upload tool again, it didn't work last time. (that didn't work, trying dropbox)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12693034/fish/IMG_0194.JPG
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12693034/fish/IMG_0195.JPG
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12693034/fish/IMG_0196.JPG
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12693034/fish/IMG_0198.JPG
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12693034/fish/IMG_0199.JPG

The previous pleco never bothered the black moor as far as I could tell. The petstore only accepts returns of fish for one week after the purchase, and it's been longer than that.

I am turning off the water heater, this should cause the temperature to drop to about 72. I am also doing a 50% water change. Should I also attempt to bring up the pH? I bought pH Plus when I bought the pleco because I knew my pH was a bit low, but I didn't want to try to alter the pH while trying to fight off ich.

 

[jlk]

Thank you for the pics! Your poor moor is very ill. Its going to take effort on your behalf to get him healthy. I am guessing you reside in the US? If you can not find another tank on short notice, atleast go pick up at 20g storage container from walmart/another chain store along with a inexpensive filter. This can serve as inexpensive qt tank for the moor until you figure out your tank situation (do not use the lid). Rinse the container out with some hot water before using & make sure theres no carbon in the filter. Make sure you temp-match the new water to the tank water & properly condition it. Petsmart usually carries maracyn plus & maracyn 2- pick up whichever one you can find plus some aq salt. Once you are able to get him moved, we can explain the proper way to add salt & how to use meds while changing the water daily.

Your ph should come up with some water changes & you will be able to keep it stable with continued water changes. Do not use ph-up chemicals- they are only going to create more problems for everybody. If your ph continues to be an issue, we can address this further down the line after everybodys healthy. Meantime, water changes.

After the moor is moved, you can continue to treat the two remaining fish with heat & daily water changes/grav vacs to keep toxins in check & to remove ich spores. The ich will be cured without any meds. You will need to turn the heat up gradually to 86-88f and leave it there for atleast 2wks or for a week after you have seen the last spot. This will get you started for treating everybody. Please dont hesitate to ask if you have any questions!

 

[malfist]

I know that to treat with salt, I should raise it 0.1% per 12 hours to reach 0.3% maximum, and maintain it through water changes.

Should I also do daily 50% water changes for the quarantine "tank"?
Should the quarantine tank have gravel or decorations?

My current water heater maxes out at 82-84 F. I suppose I could disable it's thermostat, or add an additional resistor to trick it into thinking it's colder than it is (assuming it's using a thermistor), but I should probably just buy a better one.

 

[jlk]

Yep! You want a .3% salinity to treat the moor. This equates to 2.5 level teaspoons per gallon of water. Weight of the salt is a more accurate means for measuring but most of us dont have a gram scale to weigh it (11.4g per gal). Premix the salt in a container of either tank water or conditioned water & add it gradually over the course of 48hrs. When you do a water change, only add back the salt you remove- ie, a 50% wc, add back 1/2 the original dose. Let us know what antibiotic you find & we can advise on this as well. Two other antibiotics to consider if you cant find either of the ones I listed would be either Furan2 or Triple Sulfa. Not as strong but def better than no meds.

The qt will need daily water changes because it will not be cycled. Aim for 50%. This will be vital to helping him recover. No gravel or decor needed & it will make keeping it clean easier. If you want to get a silk plant or two to stick in there for him to hide in, thats fine. Boring, yes, but the qt is solely designed for getting him healthy so less is more. The only other you may want to add is a bubbler or airstone for some extra oxygen. Walmart has inexpensive airpumps as well (@$5-6).

I have no experience with messing with heater themostats, so you are on your own with this one! Good luck & keep us posted on how you make out!

 

[malfist]

Me and my boyfriend have been discussing getting a larger tank, and with this we decided to take the plunge. We now own a 55 gallon tank! I will use this tank as the qt tank until the black moor is healthy.
I will keep both sets of fish separate until all fish are healthy. Then I will move all the fish to the new tank.

I also purchased Maracyn Two, but it doesn't say anything about removing carbon filters, should I still remove them?

Once I reduced the heat in the smaller tank, the black moor recovered significantly and is no longer bottom sitting, and most of the white stuff seems to be gone from him. Should I still treat him with maracyn?

Also, the ammonia reading was a mistake. My test kit doesn't test ammonia, that reading was alkalinity. So that was a false alarm. I am still doing the daily water changes, but the numbers look much better. I have no idea, however, as to what my ammonia level actually is.

Thank you so much for your help!

 

[jlk]

Thats wonderful that he is doing better & that your getting a bigger tank! You still have salt in his water, correct? Continue with this & lots of healthy water (daily water changes). If he has improved this much, lets wait on the meds for now & see if he can heal up on his own without having to use them.

Ok- for your new tank, you will need decent filtration (550gph min) that you can achieve with either two big HOB filters or a canister. An additional source of aeration will help as well (powerheads, airstones or bubble wands). I will advise again that you should rehome the pleco- your going to have problems with the pleco & goldies in future that are very easily preventable. Invest in a good test kit (API freshwater master test kit) so you can accurately monitor your water. You may want to consider doing a fishless cycle on this tank so you do not have to worry about doing daily water changes while the tank cycles. A python or some other type of water changer will make your life alot easier on a big tank as well. Once the new tank is cycled & the pleco has been rehomed, you can consider adding a few more goldies (no more than 3) to tank. Please ask if you have any questions and keep us posted on the moor's condition!

 

[malfist]

There is still salt in his water. I'm using the weight method because I have a gram scale for baking (and other experiments). I'm going to keep it at .3% until I haven't seen a white spot for 7 days.

I will continue treating the other tank with heat and medicine (but no salt, the placo won't like it).

I have ordered the recommended test kit, an air pump, tubing and a bubble wand. They should be in tomorrow or Wednesday.

About the filter, the tank came with a 350 gph filter, which it said was good for 45-70 gallon tanks. Is this not true? Should I replace it? (The tank also came with a "digital thermometer" that was 100% analog [heat sensitive paints])

I plan to move some of the gravel from the old tank to the new tank to speed up bacterial propagation and reduce cycling time. I know that will bring the ich spores with it, but the black moor already has ich so it won't be introducing them.

 

[jlk]

Good job! Yes, filters are a bit under rated for what they can realistically handle. For goldfish, you need heavy filtration. The recommendation is 10x the tank size or min 550gph. You can accomplish this by simply adding another big HOB filter. Look for something in the 400gph range. Marineland emperor, aqueon & aquaclear all make decent filters. With goldfish, its always better to overfilter than underfilter.

Moving gravel from your present tank will have minimal effect on the big tank. I also would not want to introduce disease into the new tank if it can be avoided. You can purchase 'active' filters from Angelsplus to help speed cycling if you dont have access to any clean, cycled media.

Sponge Filters for aquariums

 

[malfist]

The black moor is doing very well now. He looks healthy and the white stuff has gone away without meds. I'll keep up the salt for another 7 days, but I think he's safe now

Oh, and I identified the catfish that is in the other tank, it's a Striped African Glass Catfish. It's still battling ich, but I'm not concerned about it. It's quite active.

 

[jlk]

Thats great to hear!